MTA NYCT Subway/Bus discussion

[aemoreira81]

I thought at first they will never go back to CNG due to high maintenance cost.

Actually, the price of CNG has crashed through the cellar. Now, what is really the question is where those last 100 buses will go. The buses that should be replaced are:

31 1994-1995 Orion V CNG (NYCT)

299 1997-1999 Orion V CNG (MTA Bus/NYCT; these were inherited when the MTA took over private lines in 2005 and 2006)

189 1998-2000 New Flyer C40LF (NYCT)

This would leave the MTA with just 56 buses that were inherited from when MTA Bus was taken over.

They ordered over 80 CNG buses for Long Island Bus earlier this year (although, LIB is a 100% CNG fleet.)

2002 Orion VII HEV: 6365 (total: 1)

2003-2004 Orion VII HEV: 6366-6489 (total: 123)

2005 Orion VII HEV: 6490-6689 (total: 199)

2006-2007 Orion VII HEV: 3500-3783, 6690-6905 (total: 500)

2008-2009 Orion VII NG HEV: 3800-4278, 4330-4700 (total: 848) -- currently being delivered

Grand total: 1671 (that's a lot!)

The count is actually 1675, and 100 CNGs for LIB.

Of that 850-bus order, about 475 units are in. The delivery for Kingsbridge should begin by late this week.

I doubt they're still there, although I haven't checked the place since.

They should be removed by now (that was the graveyard), as buses are coming to there rapidly.

[Shaun]

According to this NYC report, hyrbids are much more expensive to maintain and have a higher overall operating cost, and need more attention per Km than regular buses. And the fuel economy is only marginally better. The only real benefit is that there is a significant reduction in emissions.

http://archive.electricdrive.org/index.php...p;file=Eudy.PDF

So other than the environmental benefits what's the advantage of a hyrbid system? At least that's the question that i have based on this report. Mind you the date on the report is 2002. But how much has changed since?

[aemoreira81]

According to this NYC report, hyrbids are much more expensive to maintain and have a higher overall operating cost, and need more attention per Km than regular buses. And the fuel economy is only marginally better. The only real benefit is that there is a significant reduction in emissions.

http://archive.electricdrive.org/index.php...p;file=Eudy.PDF

So other than the environmental benefits what's the advantage of a hyrbid system? At least that's the question that i have based on this report. Mind you the date on the report is 2002. But how much has changed since?

The technology has probably advanced much more since then. At the time, there were only 10 hybrid electric buses in the fleet (all since scrapped). Today, there are over 1,300 (of a 6,300-bus fleet), including a garage that is all-hybrid.

[Cathay 888]

The DesignLine EcoSaver IV model debuted in service in New York City. Here is one pic of it on the M42 route.

If you ask me, it looks too much like a bullet.

Are they based in Manhatten??

[R. McConnell]

Are they based in Manhatten??

Yes. They're based out of Manhattan's Michael J. Quill bus depot and can be found on a number of prominent Manhattan routes.

[aemoreira81]

Are they based in Manhatten??

Yes, just that one now. However, it is running on almost every MJQ route; of late, I have seen it on the M6.

Also on an aside, it looks as though the first batch of O5s in NYC is now down to fewer than 20 active units. The low 8000s are down to probably fewer than 30.

[R. McConnell]

Any news on the other five DesignLine buses? With all the time that's elapsed since the arrival of 1302, one would think that the others would have arrived by now...

[aemoreira81]

Any news on the other five DesignLine buses? With all the time that's elapsed since the arrival of 1302, one would think that the others would have arrived by now...

1302 is now fixed on the M5 at Manhattanville, after testing on the M6 and then the M9 before being transferred to MHV.

[6688]

I caught word of this on another list:

http://www.mta.info/mta/news/releases/?en=091007-NYCT164

NYC Transit To Offer Yankee Fans A Ride On A Vintage IRT Train To Playoff Games At Yankee Stadium

Yankee fans who regularly ride the 4 train to Yankee Stadium are accustomed to new trains featuring bright lights, optimally-controlled interior temperatures and high-tech customer information delivered via digitized voice announcements and signs.

However, to celebrate the first playoff games at the new Yankee Stadium, fans choosing the smart way to travel to the game might be lucky enough to travel back in time, with a ride on a vintage IRT train that was serving Bronx subway customers a few years before the original stadium first opened its doors. The train's rattan seats, ceiling fans and drop sash windows hark back to an earlier age of subway travel, and our "Nostalgia Special" will serve as a photogenic counterpoint to the new home of the New York Yankees.

"Taking the subway is always a great way to get to the ballgame, but being able to travel there on the nostalgia train makes an already enjoyable trip extra special," said Steven Feil, Senior Vice President of Subways for NYC Transit. "These cars were in operation back when Lou Gehrig and Babe Ruth were wreaking havoc on the American League and now they're back again for fans to see Derek Jeter and Alex Rodriguez patrol the Yankees' infield."

The train, originally operated by the Interborough Rapid Transit (IRT) system, began service in 1917 and it is possible that these very same cars carried fans to the first opening day at the original Yankee Stadium in 1923.

The four-car "Nostalgia Special" is scheduled to leave 42nd Street-Grand Central subway station at approximately 3:45 p.m., Wednesday, October 7 and again Friday, October 9, making all express stops on the Lexington Avenue Line and arriving at 161st Street-Yankee Stadium about 35 minutes later.

The Lo-V subway cars served customers for more than five decades before they were retired in the 1960s and currently serve as a splendid illustration of just how far rapid transit car design and technology have advanced over the past 100 years.

Customers who can't make it aboard this vintage train but still crave a bit of nostalgia can visit the Transit Museum, one of the city's leading cultural institutions and the largest museum in the United States devoted to urban public transportation history. For more information, visit www.mta.info.

For travel information, customers may call our Travel Information Center at 718-330-1234 from 6 a.m. to 10 p.m. daily, or log onto www.tripplanner.mta.info to use Trip Planner to plan their trips. Customers with web enabled phones or PDAs can use our Trip Planner On-the-Go! by going to www.tripplanner.mta.info/mobile; in addition to planning their trips, Blackberry users can download the free icon for one touch access to the service.

I'm envious that NYC can pull something like this together! Incredible

[BJC]

1302 is now fixed on the M5 at Manhattanville, after testing on the M6 and then the M9 before being transferred to MHV.

then it was tested on the M 60 and it failed on that route.

[A. Wong]

An article about hybrid buses in the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/22/automobi...22BUS.html?_r=1

[R. McConnell]

An article about hybrid buses in the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/22/automobi...22BUS.html?_r=1

It also mentions that there will be a hydrogen fuel cell demo bus in operation next spring. I wonder what it's going to be -- the H40LFR? The Van Hool bus?

[Skateboard 5555]

From BusChat:

MTA to purchase 135 CNG LF buses with an option for up to 475 more

Hopefully that award goes to Orion.

I thought at first they will never go back to CNG due to high maintenance cost.

Actually they like CNG,but they haven't order since 2004 because the CNGs they have were not old yet,but now they are becoming old and they are buying to replace all their Orion V CNGs and C40LF.

Also the 1993-1994 TMC RTS CNG being replaced by the Orion VII HEV in 2006 is a different story.

Maybe problems with their HEV VIIs?

no the HEV aren't having problems, they are just buying CNGs to replace their current CNG buses they have which are the 1994-1995 & 1997-1999 Orion V CNG and their 1998-2000 C40LF.

It also mentions that there will be a hydrogen fuel cell demo bus in operation next spring. I wonder what it's going to be -- the H40LFR? The Van Hool bus?

let's wait and see. it cloud be either.

[R. McConnell]

Actually they like CNG,but they haven't order since 2004 because the CNGs they have were not old yet,but now they are becoming old and they are buying to replace all their Orion V CNGs and C40LF.

no the HEV aren't having problems, they are just buying CNGs to replace their current CNG buses they have which are the 1994-1995 & 1997-1999 Orion V CNG and their 1998-2000 C40LF.

I seriously doubt the C40LFs will be retired -- they're only nine years old, and given the MTA's propensity for running buses well past the 12-year mark, they'll be on the streets for a few more years at least.

My guess is that the 135 CNG buses will replace 317 and the 500-600 series at NYC Transit as well as LI Bus's remaining 1997 Orion V CNGs. The Orion V CNGs from the DOT companies and the C40LFs will most likely stay for a bit longer.

Also the 1993-1994 TMC RTS CNG being replaced by the Orion VII HEV in 2006 is a different story.

There were a multitude of things wrong with those buses -- their CNG tanks needed to be replaced, for one, and to do so would not have been cost-effective. Moreover, they were very top-heavy and tended to lean heavily on turns, and they were relative oddballs in the fleet.

[Skateboard 5555]

I seriously doubt the C40LFs will be retired -- they're only nine years old, and given the MTA's propensity for running buses well past the 12-year mark, they'll be on the streets for a few more years at least.

My guess is that the 135 CNG buses will replace 317 and the 500-600 series at NYC Transit as well as LI Bus's remaining 1997 Orion V CNGs. The Orion V CNGs from the DOT companies and the C40LFs will most likely stay for a bit longer.

There were a multitude of things wrong with those buses -- their CNG tanks needed to be replaced, for one, and to do so would not have been cost-effective. Moreover, they were very top-heavy and tended to lean heavily on turns, and they were relative oddballs in the fleet.

we will wait and see. The order is 135 CNG buses with the option up to 475 CNG buses, with the total of 610 buses so it can fully replace all 1994-1995 & 1997-1999 Orion V CNG and 1998-2000 C40LF.

As for LIB, it didn't say anything about it but it said "100 buses will have assignments unknown" on wiki, so 100 buses cloud be for LIB?, we will have to wait and see for that part and yes it will replace all the 1997-1998 Orion V CNG.

[TheAverageJoe]

Hopefully that award goes to Orion.

Actually they like CNG,but they haven't order since 2004 because the CNGs they have were not old yet,but now they are becoming old and they are buying to replace all their Orion V CNGs and C40LF.

Also the 1993-1994 TMC RTS CNG being replaced by the Orion VII HEV in 2006 is a different story.

no the HEV aren't having problems, they are just buying CNGs to replace their current CNG buses they have which are the 1994-1995 & 1997-1999 Orion V CNG and their 1998-2000 C40LF.

let's wait and see. it cloud be either.

MTA would most likely get CNG Orion VII for that order if it goes through

[Skateboard 5555]

MTA would most likely get CNG Orion VII for that order if it goes through

hopefully yes.

[aemoreira81]

we will wait and see. The order is 135 CNG buses with the option up to 475 CNG buses, with the total of 610 buses so it can fully replace all 1994-1995 & 1997-1999 Orion V CNG and 1998-2000 C40LF.

As for LIB, it didn't say anything about it but it said "100 buses will have assignments unknown" on wiki, so 100 buses cloud be for LIB?, we will have to wait and see for that part and yes it will replace all the 1997-1998 Orion V CNG.

Unlikely that they would be for Long Island Bus; Nassau County, NY owns all of the LIB fleet. The registrations in those buses have Property of Nassau County on them.

As for the fuel cell bus, it could be a bus diverted from CT Transit as a loaner.

[R. McConnell]

Nassau still owns the LIB fleet? I thought the purpose of the LIB takeover was to completely integrate LIB with RBO, and I would presume that includes the bus fleet.

[Skateboard 5555]

Unlikely that they would be for Long Island Bus; Nassau County, NY owns all of the LIB fleet. The registrations in those buses have Property of Nassau County on them.

As for the fuel cell bus, it could be a bus diverted from CT Transit as a loaner.

Just because it's own by Nassau County doesn't mean that they will be unlikely, i mean they are unaccounted for but they might buy them more CNGs buses to replace their 1997-1998/ 2000 Orion V CNG.

Just remember the 1996 Orion V CNG and some 1997's as well retired and went to Eastchester and were replaced by the VII NG CNG.

Also I read a atricle: http://www.newsday.com/long-island/nassau/...assau-1.1532468

and about Nassau troubles and i did read a part here "Suozzi has said that he believes Nassau County has no business running a bus company, and he has urged the MTA to take over full ownership and control of the agency." which is a good idea for them to do so this way they can put the blue stripes back on 1568 and 1602 and repaint or retape the buses with a blue stripe on the Orion V CNG and all the cutaways they own.

I guess Nassau has problems with the budget. but at least said the idea to let the MTA take full ownership of LIB and let the MTA own all their buses and give them blue stripe, if they give the full ownership to the MTA.

Also i read about Gov. Paterson wanting to cut MTA funds here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/19/m...s_n_325617.html

hopefully this is not true.

[TheAverageJoe]

Just because it's own by Nassau County doesn't mean that they will be unlikely, i mean they are unaccounted for but they might buy them more CNGs buses to replace their 1997-1998/ 2000 Orion V CNG.

Just remember the 1996 Orion V CNG and some 1997's as well retired and went to Eastchester and were replaced by the VII NG CNG.

Also I read a atricle: http://www.newsday.com/long-island/nassau/...assau-1.1532468

and about Nassau troubles and i did read a part here "Suozzi has said that he believes Nassau County has no business running a bus company, and he has urged the MTA to take over full ownership and control of the agency." which is a good idea for them to do so this way they can put the blue stripes back on 1568 and 1602 and repaint or retape the buses with a blue stripe on the Orion V CNG and all the cutaways they own.

I guess Nassau has problems with the budget. but at least said the idea to let the MTA take full ownership of LIB and let the MTA own all their buses and give them blue stripe, if they give the full ownership to the MTA.

Also i read about Gov. Paterson wanting to cut MTA funds here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/19/m...s_n_325617.html

hopefully this is not true.

If that happens then LIB should also take over service on the eastern end of Long Island and just have one company running all service east of Queens

[Skateboard 5555]

If that happens then LIB should also take over service on the eastern end of Long Island and just have one company running all service east of Queens

Also Steve Levy has proposed a takeover of Suffolk County Transit by the MTA: http://libn.com/politbureau/2009/05/17/mr-...eads-to-albany/ This news is from few months ago.

Hopefully the MTA takes over Suffolk Transit, that's more importation.

[TheAverageJoe]

Also Steve Levy has proposed a takeover of Suffolk County Transit by the MTA: http://libn.com/politbureau/2009/05/17/mr-...eads-to-albany/ This news is from few months ago.

Hopefully the MTA takes over Suffolk Transit, that's more importation.

Along with that I would like MTA to take over Bee line and all other service in Westchester and Putam counties and run as MTA Beeline bus or as Metro North Bus

[R. McConnell]

There's no need for the MTA to take over all transportation in the greater New York area. The current setup -- with decentralized bus operators providing service to different regions -- works fine, although some of the individual operators may be lacking in certain cases.

Should a takeover happen, the MTA would most likely try to centralize operations of the entire bus network, which would be a difficult and unreliable feat to accomplish. They would probably cut service on some of the lesser-used bus routes in the suburbs and reliability of the bus routes that remained might take a hit.

However, that's not to say that Suffolk Transit can't improve. As one suggestion, they could try implementing Sunday service on some of their more-patronized routes, such as the S1. They could also start accepting MetroCard, as Bee-Line has done, to facilitate inter-connectivity between different transit agencies.

[Ztonyg]

Should a takeover happen, the MTA would most likely try to centralize operations of the entire bus network, which would be a difficult and unreliable feat to accomplish. They would probably cut service on some of the lesser-used bus routes in the suburbs and reliability of the bus routes that remained might take a hit.

Hence, you have LACMTA.