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MTA NYCT Subway/Bus discussion


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2 hours ago, NYC2MTL said:

2221, 2227. Done at Castelton. Retired. 
7200 Grand Avenue to Ulmer Park. Transfer. 
3258 Baisley Park to Spring Creek. Transfer. 

Is 2222 retired or is it in the scrap lot for a different reason?

also, 4251 is at NEBR.

on another note, I heard that West farms might be in line for some of the new novas or new flyers, (most likely XD40s) is that true or not?

 

in terms of replacing the 2010 novas, it’ll be hybrid artics, probably, correct?

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3 hours ago, Chris.A said:

Bus #4070 may or may not be retired out of Gun Hill depot. Awaiting confirmation.

4070 as of this morning is at Zerega Maintenance.. Not at Eastchester.

4305 is heading to Eastchester. That has retired as of today from Charleston.

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On 5/20/2021 at 1:37 PM, Chris.A said:

Yeah, but if we go back in time to the year 2011, We had Novabus RTS -06's from 1996-1999 that were started to breakdown and become costly to repair, but the MTA fixed them anyway. Same with the 1999 Orion Vs after hurricane Sandy in 2012, so why can't the do the same with these still fairly modern Orion VII NG buses? Atleast with NICE, we can say that being CNG powered kinda makes that a handicap. 

Like I said, some 2009s are going to be retired regardless of their mechanical state based on how many Novas and New Flyers that are on order. So, it's more economical to retire a 2009 Orion with an expensive mechanical failure now, than it is to repair that bus only to retire it within a year's time again.

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15 hours ago, Orion6025 said:

 

Like I said, some 2009s are going to be retired regardless of their mechanical state based on how many Novas and New Flyers that are on order. So, it's more economical to retire a 2009 Orion with an expensive mechanical failure now, than it is to repair that bus only to retire it within a year's time again.

That's not entirely true. Several NYCT depots (particularly the East New York and Fresh Ponds, even West Farms and Jackie Gleason to some degree) are down on buses due to the fact that they recently retired buses with either little replacements due to Covid Lockdowns, or losing buses to other depots. Fresh Ponds and ENY retired all their Orion VII OG hybrids with scattered NGs and XD40s from other parts of the system in 2020. West Farms is overall short on buses since they keep taking JG's C40LFs and that for the most part, some Orion VII OG CNGs retired without direct replacements . Now they are down an XN60 and an XN40 while JG is down an XN40 and 40+ C40LFs. Those new buses shouldn't really need to replace anything (NYCTA wise) other then the 2006-2007 Orion VII OG hybrids, the 2007-2008 Orion VII NG hybrids (to MTA bus) and the 2007 and 2008 MCI D4500CL/CT buses. I think everything else should really be for fleet expansion seeing as we are down over 200 buses or so.

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1 hour ago, Chris.A said:

That's not entirely true. Several NYCT depots (particularly the East New York and Fresh Pond, even West Farms and Jackie Gleason to some degree) are down on buses due to the fact that they recently retired buses with either little replacements due to Covid Lockdowns, or losing buses to other depots. Fresh Ponds and ENY retired all their Orion VII OG hybrids with scattered NGs and XD40s from other parts of the system in 2020. West Farms is overall short on buses since they keep taking JG's C40LFs and that for the most part, some Orion VII OG CNGs retired without direct replacements . Now they are down an XN60 and an XN40 while JG is down an XN40 and 40+ C40LFs. Those new buses shouldn't really need to replace anything (NYCTA wise) other then the 2006-2007 Orion VII OG hybrids, the 2007-2008 Orion VII NG hybrids (to MTA bus) and the 2007 and 2008 MCI D4500CL/CT buses. I think everything else should really be for fleet expansion seeing as we are down over 200 buses or so.

Don’t forget Flatbush is down buses too. At one point Flatbush had 250 buses suddenly they now have 213 buses and they are able to hold at least 230 buses. 

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17 hours ago, Chris.A said:

That's not entirely true. Several NYCT depots (particularly the East New York and Fresh Ponds, even West Farms and Jackie Gleason to some degree) are down on buses due to the fact that they recently retired buses with either little replacements due to Covid Lockdowns, or losing buses to other depots. Fresh Ponds and ENY retired all their Orion VII OG hybrids with scattered NGs and XD40s from other parts of the system in 2020. West Farms is overall short on buses since they keep taking JG's C40LFs and that for the most part, some Orion VII OG CNGs retired without direct replacements . Now they are down an XN60 and an XN40 while JG is down an XN40 and 40+ C40LFs. Those new buses shouldn't really need to replace anything (NYCTA wise) other then the 2006-2007 Orion VII OG hybrids, the 2007-2008 Orion VII NG hybrids (to MTA bus) and the 2007 and 2008 MCI D4500CL/CT buses. I think everything else should really be for fleet expansion seeing as we are down over 200 buses or so.

Here is the math.

There are 291 LFS HEV #9620-9910

There are 209 LFS #8755-8963

There are 194 XDE40 #9416-9499, 9510-9619

There are 139 XD40 #7851-7989

That's a total of 833 new buses.

There were 200 2006 Orions #3500-3599, 6690-6789

There were 300 2007 Orions #3600-3783, 6790-6905

There are 160 2008 Orions #3800-3959

That's a total of 660 buses. Of course this wasn't exactly 660 prior to the mass retirements in September-November 2020, it was a little less, but to keep this simple let's just keep it at 660.

No 2005 Orions were retired between mid July and late September 2020, so let's use mid-July 2020 numbers to estimate how many 2005s were retired sans replacements. There were 78 active 2005 Orions.

660+78 = 738, 738 is less than 833. If the MTA chooses to retire buses one-for-one based on the numbers just before the Sept-Nov 2020 mass retirement, 95 2009 Orions were going to be retired anyway.

If you want to use an even more conservative number, let's draw from the mid February 2020 numbers to ensure we are using a figure that is not impacted by corona.

At the time, there were 84 active 2005 Orions.

660 + 84 = 744. 744 is also less than 833.

Some 2009s were going to retire regardless. You would have to go back to mid July 2019 to get close to 833 active 2005-2008 Orions (829 active).

Furthermore, if the MTA decides to hold on to the best performing 2008s at MTA Bus, more 2009s are going to retire in place of those 2008s.

18 hours ago, Chris.A said:

West Farms is overall short on buses since they keep taking JG's C40LFs and that for the most part, some Orion VII OG CNGs retired without direct replacements . Now they are down an XN60 and an XN40 while JG is down an XN40 and 40+ C40LFs.

you need to remember than the MTA does not do 1-for-1 artic-rigid replacement. When they put XN60 at Gleason, the total # of buses at the garage was going to drop regardless because of this. West Farms picked C40LF off of Gleason, but it's not like all of those C40LF were taken without replacements...

18 hours ago, Chris.A said:

Fresh Ponds and ENY retired all their Orion VII OG hybrids with scattered NGs and XD40s from other parts of the system in 2020.

Any reductions in fleets at FP, EN, GA, FB, UP due to the retirement of the Orions is addressed above.

 

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On 5/23/2021 at 9:50 AM, NYC2MTL said:

Don’t forget Flatbush is down buses too. At one point Flatbush had 250 buses suddenly they now have 213 buses and they are able to hold at least 230 buses. 

Every since the RTS's retired from there 2 years ago, it certainly feels that way. 

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8 hours ago, Orion6025 said:

Here is the math.

There are 291 LFS HEV #9620-9910

There are 209 LFS #8755-8963

There are 194 XDE40 #9416-9499, 9510-9619

There are 139 XD40 #7851-7989

That's a total of 833 new buses.

There were 200 2006 Orions #3500-3599, 6690-6789

There were 300 2007 Orions #3600-3783, 6790-6905

There are 160 2008 Orions #3800-3959

That's a total of 660 buses. Of course this wasn't exactly 660 prior to the mass retirements in September-November 2020, it was a little less, but to keep this simple let's just keep it at 660.

No 2005 Orions were retired between mid July and late September 2020, so let's use mid-July 2020 numbers to estimate how many 2005s were retired sans replacements. There were 78 active 2005 Orions.

660+78 = 738, 738 is less than 833. If the MTA chooses to retire buses one-for-one based on the numbers just before the Sept-Nov 2020 mass retirement, 95 2009 Orions were going to be retired anyway.

If you want to use an even more conservative number, let's draw from the mid February 2020 numbers to ensure we are using a figure that is not impacted by corona.

At the time, there were 84 active 2005 Orions.

660 + 84 = 744. 744 is also less than 833.

Some 2009s were going to retire regardless. You would have to go back to mid July 2019 to get close to 833 active 2005-2008 Orions (829 active).

Furthermore, if the MTA decides to hold on to the best performing 2008s at MTA Bus, more 2009s are going to retire in place of those 2008s.

you need to remember than the MTA does not do 1-for-1 artic-rigid replacement. When they put XN60 at Gleason, the total # of buses at the garage was going to drop regardless because of this. West Farms picked C40LF off of Gleason, but it's not like all of those C40LF were taken without replacements...

Any reductions in fleets at FP, EN, GA, FB, UP due to the retirement of the Orions is addressed above.

 

What I was saying is that I know for a fact and that they indeed have plans to expand the bus fleet. Some of these depots have the capacity to support fleet growth. By retiring those 2009 NGs, they are negating that. Here's another idea, why not put those 95 NGs into storage? They hardly ever really store buses anymore. The way they operate has really changed in the last decade, cause in the past, they would not consider retiring buses at 12 (with the exception of Long Island bus, and even they didn't do that much until CNG became a thing). 

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10 hours ago, Chris.A said:

What I was saying is that I know for a fact and that they indeed have plans to expand the bus fleet. Some of these depots have the capacity to support fleet growth. By retiring those 2009 NGs, they are negating that. Here's another idea, why not put those 95 NGs into storage? They hardly ever really store buses anymore. The way they operate has really changed in the last decade, cause in the past, they would not consider retiring buses at 12 (with the exception of Long Island bus, and even they didn't do that much until CNG became a thing). 

 If you mean increasing fleet size again so that it matches what it was pre-corona, then that wouldn't be surprising, but expanding beyond that??  I wouldn't go so far as to call it a fact lol. Just because a depot isn't full doesn't mean it has to be, it isn't some goal to pack them wall to wall with buses. The goal is to have enough buses to make service while maintaining a reasonable spare factor. As New York reopens and service is appropriately increased, some of the freed space will probably get filled in with the 130 or so 'expansion' buses that are retroactively replacing the 2005-2007 Orions replaced late last year.

They certainly could store Orions, I haven't heard an indication that they will so far, will but it's possible.

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The fact that the Orions in question are hybrids may be playing a role here - this is the first time that the MTA is having to deal with aging buses equipped with expensive battery packs.  At some point it stopped making economic sense to replace those batteries. 

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3 hours ago, RailBus63 said:

The fact that the Orions in question are hybrids may be playing a role here - this is the first time that the MTA is having to deal with aging buses equipped with expensive battery packs.  At some point it stopped making economic sense to replace those batteries. 

That is indeed a factor, but I would have thought that the buses should last for about 15 years if that is the Primary reason that the MTA is getting rid of these. #6365-6489 did make it to about 15 years when the last of those buses retired in early summer 2019. Though I would have imagined that the NG buses would have in theory had revised hybrid drives/ battery packs from the OG hybrids and would last til about 2024. Same with the CNG NGs over in Nassau, possibly til 2025.

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5 hours ago, RailBus63 said:

The fact that the Orions in question are hybrids may be playing a role here - this is the first time that the MTA is having to deal with aging buses equipped with expensive battery packs.  At some point it stopped making economic sense to replace those batteries. 

Right, the batteries make repairs much more expensive.

Coupled with the fact that the hybrids generally have lower MDBF when compared to the diesels, it doesn't make much fiscal sense to keep repairing them endlessly when they can be replaced using federal money anyway. It's just lobbing money into a furnace to keep them around.

2 hours ago, Chris.A said:

That is indeed a factor, but I would have thought that the buses should last for about 15 years if that is the Primary reason that the MTA is getting rid of these. #6365-6489 did make it to about 15 years when the last of those buses retired in early summer 2019. Though I would have imagined that the NG buses would have in theory had revised hybrid drives/ battery packs from the OG hybrids and would last til about 2024. Same with the CNG NGs over in Nassau, possibly til 2025.

The goal is 12 years, not 15, based on eligibility for federal funding.

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On 5/25/2021 at 10:44 AM, Chris.A said:

That is indeed a factor, but I would have thought that the buses should last for about 15 years if that is the Primary reason that the MTA is getting rid of these. #6365-6489 did make it to about 15 years when the last of those buses retired in early summer 2019. Though I would have imagined that the NG buses would have in theory had revised hybrid drives/ battery packs from the OG hybrids and would last til about 2024. Same with the CNG NGs over in Nassau, possibly til 2025.

Given that both TTC and OC Transpo have also retired their Orion NG hybrids early, it does seem that there may have been an issue with the lithium-ion batteries in those buses.

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2 hours ago, RailBus63 said:

Given that both TTC and OC Transpo have also retired their Orion NG hybrids early, it does seem that there may have been an issue with the lithium-ion batteries in those buses.

Many of the systems operating the 'legacy' (pre 2010/11) BAE hybrids have been having to deal with a large amount of component failures aside from the batteries - electric motor, generator, PCS. 

Some systems such as Houston Metro purchase extended warranties/service contracts to try and help mitigate the costs but it's still a significant cost. PDF with some background info here: http://ridemetro.granicus.com/MetaViewer.php?view_id=5&clip_id=957&meta_id=14389

Even battery replacement alone at 10-12 years can make it uneconomical given all the additional work buses tend to require at that age, hybrid or not. 

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17 hours ago, MiExpress said:

Many of the systems operating the 'legacy' (pre 2010/11) BAE hybrids have been having to deal with a large amount of component failures aside from the batteries - electric motor, generator, PCS. 

Some systems such as Houston Metro purchase extended warranties/service contracts to try and help mitigate the costs but it's still a significant cost. PDF with some background info here: http://ridemetro.granicus.com/MetaViewer.php?view_id=5&clip_id=957&meta_id=14389

Even battery replacement alone at 10-12 years can make it uneconomical given all the additional work buses tend to require at that age, hybrid or not. 

So, what was wrong with the lead acid style battery packs? Originally, all the NG hybrid buses was suppose to come with that. However, only #3800-3959 ended up getting those while #3960 and up got the lithium -ion batteries. 

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8 hours ago, NYC2MTL said:

1395, 1397. Enroute to E’chester.

1388. Delivered. Eastchester. 

2006 Orion 7.501 OG hybrids #6698, #6704, and #6714 are now all in Brooklyn. #6698 is assigned to East New York Depot and #6704 and #6714 are both assigned to Jackie Gleason depot! However, all of these buses are Swing buses, not for service.

Also, 2021 XD40 #7851, the first bus off of the 140 bus option order is in Pennsylvania.

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13 hours ago, Chris.A said:

1. 2006 Orion 7.501 OG hybrids #6698, #6704, and #6714 are now all in Brooklyn. #6698 is assigned to East New York Depot and #6704 and #6714 are both assigned to Jackie Gleason depot! However, all of these buses are Swing buses, not for service.

2. Also, 2021 XD40 #7851, the first bus off of the 140 bus option order is in Pennsylvania.

1. What do you mean by swing buses?

2. Source? AFAIK, all NFI buses being delivered to the NYC area go to the JFK facility...could be wrong though. Do you know where in PA it is?

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