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20 minutes ago, Wayside Observer said:

Yes, that's exactly why you never destroy or discard your originals.  Anything after that is only a duplicate.  Digital information is an interesting paradox.  Depending on how it's coded, you can make an unlimited number of bit perfect exact duplicates and if you stay ahead of deterioration of the carrier medium, you can roll it ahead indefinitely, and it'll remain perfect.  On the other hand, once the bit rot sets in and it gets ahead of any error correction and recovery scheme with the encoding, you're sunk.  You're sunk if the medium becomes unplayable.  You're sunk if the encoded format becomes unplayable even if you can read the ones and zeros off the medium.  It's unbelievable how digital formats can work for you and against you and you need to be ruthless about staying on top of migrating data.  ZFS had so much promise when it was being developed by Sun.  Now, under it's under Oracle because they bought Sun and nobody wants to go near it so long term support is going to be an issue especially if Oracle decides to throw the towel in on it.  Oracle is a brutally painful and expensive ("This is our service and support contract.  This is the price.  Take it or leave it" at the mild end) company to deal with and I'd be reluctant to have any of my data locked up in something that depends on that company being generous.

As for consumer video formats that actually launched and became mainstream, I see your VHS and I raise you to Compact VHS for garbageness.  Is the C in VHS-C for "compact" or "crappy"?

 

 

 

 

 I walked (ran?) away around 2001 for many of the same reasons.  Toronto Transportation Society?  No.  Uh-huh.  Absolutely not.  Do you remember how they used to print this obscene list of terms and conditions on their charter tickets telling you what you could and could not do with the pictures you took with the film and processing you paid for on the charter you paid for?  Multiple people got angry phone calls from Neilson about violations of that.  I took him to task on the double standard about that when he's cutting together film from the same charters and selling it for personal gain and got told that this was 'different'.  Of course it is.  Never mind all the other disgusting overreach the TTS tried to inflict on members personal lives in terms of what you can do, who you can be friends with (Can you say Alan Gryfe?  Can you say guilt by association?) and so on and so forth not to mention a lot of the other deeply unethical possibly stunts that got pulled that frankly, I don't want to get into.

Then you have the Halton County Radial Railway.  One of my friends adamantly swears up and down that it's different now from back then when it was a geriatric ward full of the most miserable, nasty geezers you could ever find.  You'd think HCRR and TTS would be like peas in a pod but no, the HCRR has a massive hate for the TTS.  I know this because I was with two friends from the Philadelphia area riding streetcars in Toronto a few years ago with some HCRR member who turned his attention towards me while the four of us were in the back of an ALRV and demanded to know if I was a TTS member.  I said no because I wasn't and this guy went off on me about how he was at a TTS meeting and blah blah blah and tore a hell of a strip out of me, meanwhile I have nothing to do with either group and I don't want to have anything to do with either group, and I'm sitting there thinking, "I can't believe I'm wasting a day off work listening to this shit."  So yeah, organized foam?  No.  Absolutely not.  No way.  Not signing up for that.  So, I'm either doing what I want to do on my own or with a couple of friends and that's it.  I've bitten my tongue and gone on a couple of charters, open houses, last runs and wow.  Just wow.  Wow.

The H4.  That PCC.  That ALRV both the charter and the last run.  The CLRV charter.  Holy cow.  Unbelievable.  Yes, I agree there's a lot of value in charters taking a vehicle where it normally doesn't go or if it's one of the historic fleet that doesn't go out all that often but it sure comes with a lot of bad now.  Part of it is the insane costs and the floodgates have to be opened up wide in order to barely break even now and that means admitting the basketcases and the safety vest bozos.  On the 80th Anniversary of the PCCs, there was some dork wearing a safety vest and it was a frigging Canada Post safety vest part of a mail carrier's uniform for crying out loud.  Over the top foamer.  The sad thing is the public events.  Charters are one thing, but when the TTC or Metrolinx etc. put on a public event like an open house where Joe Q. Public gets to show up, the reputation black eye has to be immense both inside of the transit industry and among the members of the general public who get exposed to the nonsense.  All hobbies have people that take things too far and I've seen it in other interests but this one, the scale that 'too far' is on is orders of magnitude further out to lunch worse than any other hobby or interest that I've seen.

I remember hearing that the H5 last run got cut short because the motor alternator on one of the cars died.  I wasn't there but that's what I was told at the time.  I seriously hope it was an equipment failure under the floor of one of the cars and not because of some jackass getting into one of the cabs and fucking with equipment that caused them to kick the train out of service before the last run had been finished.  Unreal.

Holy fuck I did not even realize it was this bad here. Being introverted I try to keep to myself, take my photos, stay out of people's way. I guess that has made me immune to all the political crap that seems to be going on here. I get that the TTS & HCRR need money, but holy cow, preventing people from posting their own videos? How can the TTS preach demands like that, especially since it's made up of a bunch of fans?

I won't be the first to admit that there are some really rude people at Halton, but you can expect pickiness everywhere, especially given the disconnect between the modern generations (Millennial & Gen Z) and the Boomer/GenX group of people. It's as if people can't learn from each other these days. However, personally, that sentiment has always been present in Toronto Transportation, TTC streetcar operators, for the most part, don't mind filming (so long as you don't take their photos, and I would hope most of us respect that). Subway operators are a whole other world though. I have yet to come by a single TTC subway operator who was encouraging of the hobby, and while I'm sure they're out there, the risk of having the cops called on me is far too great. 

Going back to an earlier conversation, the Philadelphia/Pittsburgh, and US operators in general seem to be a lot more open to the hobby. One of the greatest experiences I had was being able to ride in the cab with a Scranton trolley operator and ride through the tunnel. We chatted about the differences between the Philadelphia trolley system and the Toronto streetcar system. While there are some great people at the HCRR (I haven't been to any TTS meetings so I can't really make a judgement there), they're definitely not as hospitable. 

Run on sentence, I know. 

10 minutes ago, PCC Guy said:

As far as organized fan groups go, in my time I don't think I've ever stumbled upon a group that has been as warm and welcoming as the Toronto Model Railroad Club. I've been attending shows of theirs for years and virtually every time, I've had at least one or two great conversations with someone from the club, who was more than happy to shed some light on their hobby and their process. A few years back I did a mini documentary on the club for a school project and there was a decent amount of folk there who were more than happy to be interviewed on camera for it. It's been a really positive experience all around. If I didn't live out in the sticks I'd have joined a long time ago.

They are super nice. Can second this.

13 minutes ago, Wayside Observer said:

653CA5FA-2C9F-4ACE-A32F-053FC218F554.thumb.jpeg.f99e1b0680a42c41215b36b54c0e6263.jpeg

We can’t be friends.

Just kidding.  Actually, I’ve thought about crashing foamer events dressed head to toe in my construction gear from work that I have to use whenever I’m working on a permitted area or outdoors in the weather and making savage fun of the foamers except I don’t think anybody would get the joke.  The irony is, the absolute best weather gear I have is all high viz work gear and I flat out refuse to wear it at any of the transit events because I don’t want to be mistaken for being an employee, or worse, one of the safety vest foamers.  This to the point of wearing clothing that was less suited to outdoor winter activity last February than undesirably paint myself as one of the foamers.

I’m quoting myself here but having written this and thinking about it, I really wish I had the presence of mind when this took place to ask the guy, “If the TTS is such a despised off-limits group for you guys, what were you doing in one of their meetings?”

I get wearing safety vests if you're fanning mainline freight on a freeway bridge or other dangerous area, but otherwise, what's the point, how self-centered do some of these people have to be to warrant a "Look at me! I'm a foamer" visual statement?

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1 hour ago, Wayside Observer said:

Yes, that's exactly why you never destroy or discard your originals.  Anything after that is only a duplicate.  Digital information is an interesting paradox.  Depending on how it's coded, you can make an unlimited number of bit perfect exact duplicates and if you stay ahead of deterioration of the carrier medium, you can roll it ahead indefinitely, and it'll remain perfect.  On the other hand, once the bit rot sets in and it gets ahead of any error correction and recovery scheme with the encoding, you're sunk.  You're sunk if the medium becomes unplayable.  You're sunk if the encoded format becomes unplayable even if you can read the ones and zeros off the medium.  It's unbelievable how digital formats can work for you and against you and you need to be ruthless about staying on top of migrating data.  ZFS had so much promise when it was being developed by Sun.  Now, under it's under Oracle because they bought Sun and nobody wants to go near it so long term support is going to be an issue especially if Oracle decides to throw the towel in on it.  Oracle is a brutally painful and expensive ("This is our service and support contract.  This is the price.  Take it or leave it" at the mild end) company to deal with and I'd be reluctant to have any of my data locked up in something that depends on that company being generous.

As for consumer video formats that actually launched and became mainstream, I see your VHS and I raise you to Compact VHS for garbageness.  Is the C in VHS-C for "compact" or "crappy"?

 

 

 

 

 I walked (ran?) away around 2001 for many of the same reasons.  Toronto Transportation Society?  No.  Uh-huh.  Absolutely not.  Do you remember how they used to print this obscene list of terms and conditions on their charter tickets telling you what you could and could not do with the pictures you took with the film and processing you paid for on the charter you paid for?  Multiple people got angry phone calls from Neilson about violations of that.  I took him to task on the double standard about that when he's cutting together film from the same charters and selling it for personal gain and got told that this was 'different'.  Of course it is.  Never mind all the other disgusting overreach the TTS tried to inflict on members personal lives in terms of what you can do, who you can be friends with (Can you say Alan Gryfe?  Can you say guilt by association?) and so on and so forth not to mention a lot of the other deeply unethical possibly stunts that got pulled that frankly, I don't want to get into.

Then you have the Halton County Radial Railway.  One of my friends adamantly swears up and down that it's different now from back then when it was a geriatric ward full of the most miserable, nasty geezers you could ever find.  You'd think HCRR and TTS would be like peas in a pod but no, the HCRR has a massive hate for the TTS.  I know this because I was with two friends from the Philadelphia area riding streetcars in Toronto a few years ago with some HCRR member who turned his attention towards me while the four of us were in the back of an ALRV and demanded to know if I was a TTS member.  I said no because I wasn't and this guy went off on me about how he was at a TTS meeting and blah blah blah and tore a hell of a strip out of me, meanwhile I have nothing to do with either group and I don't want to have anything to do with either group, and I'm sitting there thinking, "I can't believe I'm wasting a day off work listening to this shit."  So yeah, organized foam?  No.  Absolutely not.  No way.  Not signing up for that.  So, I'm either doing what I want to do on my own or with a couple of friends and that's it.  I've bitten my tongue and gone on a couple of charters, open houses, last runs and wow.  Just wow.  Wow.

The H4.  That PCC.  That ALRV both the charter and the last run.  The CLRV charter.  Holy cow.  Unbelievable.  Yes, I agree there's a lot of value in charters taking a vehicle where it normally doesn't go or if it's one of the historic fleet that doesn't go out all that often but it sure comes with a lot of bad now.  Part of it is the insane costs and the floodgates have to be opened up wide in order to barely break even now and that means admitting the basketcases and the safety vest bozos.  On the 80th Anniversary of the PCCs, there was some dork wearing a safety vest and it was a frigging Canada Post safety vest part of a mail carrier's uniform for crying out loud.  Over the top foamer.  The sad thing is the public events.  Charters are one thing, but when the TTC or Metrolinx etc. put on a public event like an open house where Joe Q. Public gets to show up, the reputation black eye has to be immense both inside of the transit industry and among the members of the general public who get exposed to the nonsense.  All hobbies have people that take things too far and I've seen it in other interests but this one, the scale that 'too far' is on is orders of magnitude further out to lunch worse than any other hobby or interest that I've seen.

I remember hearing that the H5 last run got cut short because the motor alternator on one of the cars died.  I wasn't there but that's what I was told at the time.  I seriously hope it was an equipment failure under the floor of one of the cars and not because of some jackass getting into one of the cabs and fucking with equipment that caused them to kick the train out of service before the last run had been finished.  Unreal.

Exactly. I don't have any cell phone videos or photos I took since 2014. All lost. It's just easier to back up stuff on tape and have it last but film is superior for archives. I have every negative I ever shot except the instamatic 110 crap I shot when I was starting out which sucks because I caught some rare stuff with that camera like 8187 and other old 70s GMs as well as the STCUM GMs when they got em that were sitting on that little hill before the portal leading to Downsview station. Unfortunately, that embarrassment of a camera resulted in a missed shot that I still regret to date. I was rail fanning in a spot my mother used to take us to watch trains as kids. The CP line near Brimley Rd. It was near school so I used to go after school just to watch mainly because I was old enough and I could without permission. LOL. Anyway while watching some old pacman scheme'd locos and what was left of the old St. L & H, I saw that old yellow caboose in use with two guys riding the back of it and then I saw what looked like a Peter Witt streetcar coming in slowly towards the East. OK I dabbled in a bit of the forbidden stuff in high school but I wasn't prepared for this pipe dream. I was told later that it belonged to LORAM. Still, the sight of a Peter Witt sharing track with those SD40s and etc was a sight to behold for sure.

FreeBSD has abandoned oracles ZFS and their going with the more actively developed ZFS-on-Linux. It's a good filesystem but it's a little too much for my needs and is way too complicated. Plus it uses more resources and using "zpools" if you're not careful can wipe out everything you have as I learned the hard way. I'll stick with UFS thanks. Oracle for certain killed a lot. Solaris is pretty much DEAD.

Ah VHS-C. The first time I saw that was on an episode of Home Improvement where Tim took a little cassette, inserted into a bigger cassette and put it in his VCR. I thought it was the most futuristic thing I'd ever seen to date. 🤣 And boy were those cameras hideous. They looked like a Soviet iron.

You've opened up not one but two cans of worms so now I am going to put on some easy listening because the memories are beginning to make my blood boil:

I sure as hell remember those "terms and conditions". I was one of the first to notice and I brought it up at a meeting. I could hardly contain my anger. That was the last meeting I attended. Who do these guys think they are telling me what I can or cannot do with my photos? I would understand if they meant for commercial purposes but they did not. They said you couldn't even put them on the web. back then there weren't as many transit sites so maybe they were trying to monopolize that with their monthly photos. Again, a group that takes themselves way too seriously. I get the feeling they typed that up just to give the group some kind of weird legitimacy through pedantry, and overuse of legal terms. In other words, they're trying to make themselves look official with lots of big words. And again, I remember the drama with Alan. He must have done something very bad that even being seen in public with him could cost you membership. LOL. I'll never forget that "proxy vote" letter they sent to try and oust Ray Neilson. I'm surprised they never prepared articles of impeachment against the guy. I wish I could have all the time I spent at those meetings back. I really do.

And I sure as hell also remember those grumpy old geezers at the HCRR. It was there that I saw the angriest Santa Claus in history when I visited there for the Christmas thing back in '98. Hollywood screenwriters couldn't make this up. I hope some younger people volunteer, learn the skills, learn to fix the old girls to displace what's left of those guys. Did you know the HCRR fellow on the streetcar or was he just there, overheard you speaking and decided to take it upon himself to cuss you out? Because if that were the case and it were me, well. I'll just keep my mouth shut. LOL. Funny how these two organizations, completely dependent on the revenue from regular fans could be so arrogant. I haven't been to HCRR or a TTS meeting since 2001. I wish the TTC had it's own museum. The only cool guy I remember at the TTS was Chris Prentice. You could actually approach him without him holding up his nose! You could even ask him questions about his slides!

Charters can be fun but the people on them just ruins the experience for me. The exception was probably Jack Doyle's 98 xmas charter. Pure class, no problems, everyone had a good time and not a single bubble of foam. I cherish that memory because it was the first time I ever rode a PCC (even after having lived downtown when they were in service) and we went into the Hillside wye. Oh and Jack was the only one with the safety vest and that's the way both he and the rest of us liked it. LOL The M1 charter was good too but only because there wasn't much latitude to foam and the attendees were spread out between two 75' cars.

I hope that was the case with the H5 last run because i could just picture one of those safety vest foam extremists fucking with the high rate switch just to "mAkE iT gO fAsTeR!!!111"

52 minutes ago, PCC Guy said:

As far as organized fan groups go, in my time I don't think I've ever stumbled upon a group that has been as warm and welcoming as the Toronto Model Railroad Club. I've been attending shows of theirs for years and virtually every time, I've had at least one or two great conversations with someone from the club, who was more than happy to shed some light on their hobby and their process. A few years back I did a mini documentary on the club for a school project and there was a decent amount of folk there who were more than happy to be interviewed on camera for it. It's been a really positive experience all around. If I didn't live out in the sticks I'd have joined a long time ago.

Want a welcoming group, try the Metropolitan Bus group (argh can't remember the full name) in NYC. I sent them a letter and they sent me a very nice package with a handwritten letter and information on how to attend their charters and a couple charter brochures. I still have the package. This was 20 years ago though so YMMV.

42 minutes ago, Streety McCarface said:

Holy fuck I did not even realize it was this bad here. Being introverted I try to keep to myself, take my photos, stay out of people's way. I guess that has made me immune to all the political crap that seems to be going on here. I get that the TTS & HCRR need money, but holy cow, preventing people from posting their own videos? How can the TTS preach demands like that, especially since it's made up of a bunch of fans?

I won't be the first to admit that there are some really rude people at Halton, but you can expect pickiness everywhere, especially given the disconnect between the modern generations (Millennial & Gen Z) and the Boomer/GenX group of people. It's as if people can't learn from each other these days. However, personally, that sentiment has always been present in Toronto Transportation, TTC streetcar operators, for the most part, don't mind filming (so long as you don't take their photos, and I would hope most of us respect that). Subway operators are a whole other world though. I have yet to come by a single TTC subway operator who was encouraging of the hobby, and while I'm sure they're out there, the risk of having the cops called on me is far too great. 

Going back to an earlier conversation, the Philadelphia/Pittsburgh, and US operators in general seem to be a lot more open to the hobby. One of the greatest experiences I had was being able to ride in the cab with a Scranton trolley operator and ride through the tunnel. We chatted about the differences between the Philadelphia trolley system and the Toronto streetcar system. While there are some great people at the HCRR (I haven't been to any TTS meetings so I can't really make a judgement there), they're definitely not as hospitable. 

Run on sentence, I know. 

They are super nice. Can second this.

I get wearing safety vests if you're fanning mainline freight on a freeway bridge or other dangerous area, but otherwise, what's the point, how self-centered do some of these people have to be to warrant a "Look at me! I'm a foamer" visual statement?

I met some nice subway operators back in the day. Many would let me stand in the cab while I asked questions. I guess that's all gone now.

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Sorry I gotta add to the Saga of TTS BS.

Wayside. Do you remember when they were planning the M1 subway charter and some of the arrogant old farts didn't want it to happen because they were on the G1 charter and to them I guess, they didn't want any of the younger guys experiencing a subway charter? They wanted that G1 charter to have been exclusive and the only one in history. That was at least my impression. Those guys must have shit their Depends when they found out about the H4 charter. I couldn't imagine any other excuse for not chartering the first Canadian built cars. Like, they were actually making "motions" at the meeting against it. Those guys were real pieces of work.

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1 hour ago, Downsview 108 said:

Exactly. I don't have any cell phone videos or photos I took since 2014. All lost. It's just easier to back up stuff on tape and have it last but film is superior for archives. I have every negative I ever shot except the instamatic 110 crap I shot when I was starting out which sucks because I caught some rare stuff with that camera like 8187 and other old 70s GMs as well as the STCUM GMs when they got em that were sitting on that little hill before the portal leading to Downsview station. Unfortunately, that embarrassment of a camera resulted in a missed shot that I still regret to date. I was rail fanning in a spot my mother used to take us to watch trains as kids. The CP line near Brimley Rd. It was near school so I used to go after school just to watch mainly because I was old enough and I could without permission. LOL. Anyway while watching some old pacman scheme'd locos and what was left of the old St. L & H, I saw that old yellow caboose in use with two guys riding the back of it and then I saw what looked like a Peter Witt streetcar coming in slowly towards the East. OK I dabbled in a bit of the forbidden stuff in high school but I wasn't prepared for this pipe dream. I was told later that it belonged to LORAM. Still, the sight of a Peter Witt sharing track with those SD40s and etc was a sight to behold for sure.

FreeBSD has abandoned oracles ZFS and their going with the more actively developed ZFS-on-Linux. It's a good filesystem but it's a little too much for my needs and is way too complicated. Plus it uses more resources and using "zpools" if you're not careful can wipe out everything you have as I learned the hard way. I'll stick with UFS thanks. Oracle for certain killed a lot. Solaris is pretty much DEAD.

Ah VHS-C. The first time I saw that was on an episode of Home Improvement where Tim took a little cassette, inserted into a bigger cassette and put it in his VCR. I thought it was the most futuristic thing I'd ever seen to date. 🤣 And boy were those cameras hideous. They looked like a Soviet iron.

You've opened up not one but two cans of worms so now I am going to put on some easy listening because the memories are beginning to make my blood boil:

I sure as hell remember those "terms and conditions". I was one of the first to notice and I brought it up at a meeting. I could hardly contain my anger. That was the last meeting I attended. Who do these guys think they are telling me what I can or cannot do with my photos? I would understand if they meant for commercial purposes but they did not. They said you couldn't even put them on the web. back then there weren't as many transit sites so maybe they were trying to monopolize that with their monthly photos. Again, a group that takes themselves way too seriously. I get the feeling they typed that up just to give the group some kind of weird legitimacy through pedantry, and overuse of legal terms. In other words, they're trying to make themselves look official with lots of big words. And again, I remember the drama with Alan. He must have done something very bad that even being seen in public with him could cost you membership. LOL. I'll never forget that "proxy vote" letter they sent to try and oust Ray Neilson. I'm surprised they never prepared articles of impeachment against the guy. I wish I could have all the time I spent at those meetings back. I really do.

And I sure as hell also remember those grumpy old geezers at the HCRR. It was there that I saw the angriest Santa Claus in history when I visited there for the Christmas thing back in '98. Hollywood screenwriters couldn't make this up. I hope some younger people volunteer, learn the skills, learn to fix the old girls to displace what's left of those guys. Did you know the HCRR fellow on the streetcar or was he just there, overheard you speaking and decided to take it upon himself to cuss you out? Because if that were the case and it were me, well. I'll just keep my mouth shut. LOL. Funny how these two organizations, completely dependent on the revenue from regular fans could be so arrogant. I haven't been to HCRR or a TTS meeting since 2001. I wish the TTC had it's own museum. The only cool guy I remember at the TTS was Chris Prentice. You could actually approach him without him holding up his nose! You could even ask him questions about his slides!

Charters can be fun but the people on them just ruins the experience for me. The exception was probably Jack Doyle's 98 xmas charter. Pure class, no problems, everyone had a good time and not a single bubble of foam. I cherish that memory because it was the first time I ever rode a PCC (even after having lived downtown when they were in service) and we went into the Hillside wye. Oh and Jack was the only one with the safety vest and that's the way both he and the rest of us liked it. LOL The M1 charter was good too but only because there wasn't much latitude to foam and the attendees were spread out between two 75' cars.

I hope that was the case with the H5 last run because i could just picture one of those safety vest foam extremists fucking with the high rate switch just to "mAkE iT gO fAsTeR!!!111"

Want a welcoming group, try the Metropolitan Bus group (argh can't remember the full name) in NYC. I sent them a letter and they sent me a very nice package with a handwritten letter and information on how to attend their charters and a couple charter brochures. I still have the package. This was 20 years ago though so YMMV.

I met some nice subway operators back in the day. Many would let me stand in the cab while I asked questions. I guess that's all gone now.

Some subway ops have their door open and if they are nice, you maybe able to talk to them.

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4 hours ago, Streety McCarface said:

I won't be the first to admit that there are some really rude people at Halton, but you can expect pickiness everywhere, especially given the disconnect between the modern generations (Millennial & Gen Z) and the Boomer/GenX group of people. It's as if people can't learn from each other these days. However, personally, that sentiment has always been present in Toronto 

Rude doesn't even begin to approach describing the mealymouthed drivel that would come out of their mouths, never mind some of the nasty behaviour they'd indulge in.  I was talking with a TTC operator once and I mentioned HCRR and the guy blew up on me with a "YOU'RE WASTING YOUR TIME AND YOUR GAS IF YOU'RE GOING OUT THERE".  It caught me by surprise but it was a nice validating sanity check in that it was good to find out it isn't just me, other people feel the same way about the place.  Between the BS from Toronto Transportation Society, BS from HCRR, BS from the foamer minions when the straw that broke my back was laid, one of my best friends called me up and I vented a lot of four letter words and swore I was finished with geezers, finished with foamers, finished with societies, clubs, trolley museums, finished with the bunch of it.  It took about four years and a lot of work convincing me from one of my American friends to set foot inside of a trolley museum down there.  Cross generational divides have always existed and always will, but the younger incoming generation can't learn from the older generation that's going out if they refuse to teach and amuse themselves by snarling and crapping all over anyone that's younger or closed to the idea that anyone younger than them might have something to offer that they can learn from.

Quote

I get wearing safety vests if you're fanning mainline freight on a freeway bridge or other dangerous area, but otherwise, what's the point, how self-centered do some of these people have to be to warrant a "Look at me! I'm a foamer" visual statement?

Personally, I think safety vests are not very useful except for satisfying the minimum requirements that are set out by employers or situations where government regulations are in effect like construction sites.  The latter's let to some truly wild situations where I've had to be in head to toe construction gear at work to sit working keyboards and mice setting up equipment only because it's located somewhere that a construction permit's still in effect even though the renovation work's all but done.  Other situations like working on equipment outdoors in the middle of winter when it's dark, it's cold, falling ice and snow are a problem make more sense.  Two winters ago, the hood on my truck got a few dents in it from falling ice coming off a large piece of equipment.  You're damn right I was wearing my construction gear and a hard hat with that going on.  Safety vests don't help when you're working in an absolutely filthy area though so I prefer high viz coveralls which meet the visibility requirements and save my own clothes from getting shredded and sweated out.

So, great for meeting employer requirements, great for meeting government requirements, great from saving your own clothing from getting destroyed.  But for watching trains?  No.  Mainline freight?  What's a safety vest going to do?  The train can't steer.  The train can't stop quickly.  If the train derails, it's anyone's luck what happens next.  If something goes wrong in a moving mainline rail situation, the safety vest is going to be as torn to shreds as the person wearing it and it isn't going to change anything.  Skip the safety vest and act safely.  That's what I don't understand about the useless foamers wearing this garbage.  It isn't helping them.  It doesn't identify them as employees because they aren't employees.  What's the point?  That's why I was saying I've been seriously tempted to put the whole over the top head to toe outfit on and crash some event and make fun of the frothy foamers but like I said earlier, that joke would go wooshing by most people.

3 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

Exactly. I don't have any cell phone videos or photos I took since 2014. All lost. It's just easier to back up stuff on tape and have it last but film is superior for archives. I have every negative I ever shot except the instamatic 110 crap I shot when I was starting out which sucks because I caught some rare stuff with that camera like 8187 and other old 70s GMs as well as the STCUM GMs when they got em that were sitting on that little hill before the portal leading to Downsview station. Unfortunately, that embarrassment of a camera resulted in a missed shot that I still regret to date. I was rail fanning in a spot my mother used to take us to watch trains as kids. The CP line near Brimley Rd. It was near school so I used to go after school just to watch mainly because I was old enough and I could without permission. LOL. Anyway while watching some old pacman scheme'd locos and what was left of the old St. L & H, I saw that old yellow caboose in use with two guys riding the back of it and then I saw what looked like a Peter Witt streetcar coming in slowly towards the East. OK I dabbled in a bit of the forbidden stuff in high school but I wasn't prepared for this pipe dream. I was told later that it belonged to LORAM. Still, the sight of a Peter Witt sharing track with those SD40s and etc was a sight to behold for sure.

I wonder if what you saw was Peter Witt 2300 partway along being transported from the Roundhouse Museum here to Exporail in Quebec where it is now?

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I sure as hell remember those "terms and conditions". I was one of the first to notice and I brought it up at a meeting. I could hardly contain my anger. That was the last meeting I attended. Who do these guys think they are telling me what I can or cannot do with my photos? I would understand if they meant for commercial purposes but they did not. They said you couldn't even put them on the web. back then there weren't as many transit sites so maybe they were trying to monopolize that with their monthly photos. Again, a group that takes themselves way too seriously. I get the feeling they typed that up just to give the group some kind of weird legitimacy through pedantry, and overuse of legal terms. In other words, they're trying to make themselves look official with lots of big words. And again, I remember the drama with Alan. He must have done something very bad that even being seen in public with him could cost you membership. LOL. I'll never forget that "proxy vote" letter they sent to try and oust Ray Neilson. I'm surprised they never prepared articles of impeachment against the guy. I wish I could have all the time I spent at those meetings back. I really do.

They stuck with those onerous terms and conditions for the longest time too.  Commercial use of material made during those charters?  I'm sure that wasn't permitted.  GPS Video?  Oh, well there's an exception for that.  The double standards grated me to no end.  Honestly, with some of the stuff that Ray Neilson pulled, I really truly thought some responsible adult would've put a stop to things for the benefit of everyone involved before any major trouble hit the fan.  Remember the army of kids, the minions he always had?  He barged into some of their families houses and at lest one of their parents' businesses bellowing and raging and throwing his weight around.  I swear he must've gotten away with stuff like that because he'd say he was the "President of the TTS" and people must've thought they heard him say he was the "President of the TTC" instead.  Minor difference that might not be noticed when you've got this guy blowing his stack in your face at full volume.  Right to your point about making themselves look official with lots of big words.  They also did these business cards up for the executive committee members back then too.  Again, making themselves look officially official.

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And I sure as hell also remember those grumpy old geezers at the HCRR. It was there that I saw the angriest Santa Claus in history when I visited there for the Christmas thing back in '98. Hollywood screenwriters couldn't make this up. I hope some younger people volunteer, learn the skills, learn to fix the old girls to displace what's left of those guys. Did you know the HCRR fellow on the streetcar or was he just there, overheard you speaking and decided to take it upon himself to cuss you out? Because if that were the case and it were me, well. I'll just keep my mouth shut. LOL. Funny how these two organizations, completely dependent on the revenue from regular fans could be so arrogant. I haven't been to HCRR or a TTS meeting since 2001. I wish the TTC had it's own museum. The only cool guy I remember at the TTS was Chris Prentice. You could actually approach him without him holding up his nose! You could even ask him questions about his slides!

You know, I wonder how many parents had to comfort their kids after visiting the world's angriest Santa, thinking they'd been bad and weren't getting anything for Christmas.

How it went down on that ALRV.  Two of my friends from the Philadelphia area had come into town for a weekend visit and made arrangements to visit HCRR on the Saturday, run some cars there, then come into Toronto on the Sunday and ride around here and they asked if I'd like to come along on the Sunday so I said sure.  One of the HCRR guys joined them as well so it was the four of us for the whole day and the guy from HCRR was civil the whole time except for this one part of the day where he just turned to me and started cross examining me and tearing a strip out of me because of some perceived slight by some TTS member(s) at some unspecified point in the past.  I don't know why the dislike for TTS on part of HCRR exists or what caused it but I've seen other examples too; someone else got reamed out something else and told that they were going to ban all TTS members from the museum.  How that would work given that there has always been membership overlap between the two places is a mystery to me but it never developed into a serious proposal.  Personally, it's left me in an awkward position where a couple of my US friends have been pushing me to volunteer at HCRR because they think I'd be a valuable resource for them based on some of the stuff I've done when visiting down south but I don't want to do anything with the local organized foam scene.

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Charters can be fun but the people on them just ruins the experience for me. The exception was probably Jack Doyle's 98 xmas charter. Pure class, no problems, everyone had a good time and not a single bubble of foam. I cherish that memory because it was the first time I ever rode a PCC (even after having lived downtown when they were in service) and we went into the Hillside wye. Oh and Jack was the only one with the safety vest and that's the way both he and the rest of us liked it. LOL The M1 charter was good too but only because there wasn't much latitude to foam and the attendees were spread out between two 75' cars.

I hope that was the case with the H5 last run because i could just picture one of those safety vest foam extremists fucking with the high rate switch just to "mAkE iT gO fAsTeR!!!111"

The Doyle charters were always good.  On the whole, charters were a lot better 20+ years ago in almost every way.  The prices.  The possibilities of what could be done.  The people attending.  I don't ever remember Jack wearing a safety vest.  Back then, even the TTC employees didn't.  It was strictly a foamer thing and even then it was rare.  There was one PCC charter I was on and the routing was aggressive with the amount of distance the itinerary covered in the time that was booked and it became apparent how tight it was going to be not too long after we got going.  The weather also went south.  To save time, I offered to do the manual switches to save the time the operator would have to get up, leave the car, throw each switch, move the car up, put it back if it was on the main line, then get back in and go.  So there I was in pouring rain with a switchiron dashing out, fighting with switches that were filling with water and mud until the point would throw with a BANG! and a sheet of water would come flying out and I'd be jumping back out of the way to avoid getting soaked by more than just the rain, wait for the PCC to get moved up, run back in through the back door after resetting the switch and then go.  Other streetcar operators were smiling and laughing at this as were the people on the charter.  Sometimes operators on cars going the other way would stop, slide open their window and shout some advice on fighting with that particular switch and smile and laugh and give a thumbs up.  It was a great time on this dark, wet day.  Not a safety vest in sight, even when there was an actual case to be made for it.

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I met some nice subway operators back in the day. Many would let me stand in the cab while I asked questions. I guess that's all gone now.

It's gone.  G. O. N. E. gone.  It wasn't an every day occurrence but it wasn't exactly infrequent either to see subway operators standing in their cabs with a kid standing in front of them operator's hands on top of the kid's hands on subway controllers with the kid 'driving' the train.  You NEVER see this anymore.

3 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

Sorry I gotta add to the Saga of TTS BS.

Wayside. Do you remember when they were planning the M1 subway charter and some of the arrogant old farts didn't want it to happen because they were on the G1 charter and to them I guess, they didn't want any of the younger guys experiencing a subway charter? They wanted that G1 charter to have been exclusive and the only one in history. That was at least my impression. Those guys must have shit their Depends when they found out about the H4 charter. I couldn't imagine any other excuse for not chartering the first Canadian built cars. Like, they were actually making "motions" at the meeting against it. Those guys were real pieces of work.

I wasn't around for the M1 charter and didn't go on it but I remember the BS involved in it.  Do you remember how charters were a sticky point period with the TTS around then?  They took a bath on some highway coach charter that was poorly attended or mispriced or something and that led to a massive uproar and then it turned into every charter had to turn a profit and then the lovely terms and conditions showed up on the tickets.  Then, the TTS started to become a very profitable organization and at one point had a bank balance in the five digits that lead to some consternation on the treasurer about how if the thing were to be audited, with no assets, no liabilities, no charitable activities, and a fat cash balance, their non-profit and tax exempt status could get revoked.  He favoured a slow bleed down of the bank account over time rather than a big blowout on expensive showstopping charters.  I know they fought off the temptation to blow it on charters, the whole gotta make a profit thing remained, but I don't know if the bank balance started drifting down.

But yeah, after too much exposure to too much garbage over the late 1990s and early 2000s with the organized foam scene here plus the freelance safety vest foam crowd that's materialized over the intervening time, I can't do it.  I stick to what little bit I do on the internet and on my on or with close friends.  I stick to visiting a couple of trolley museums south of the border and help them out whenever I can.  I stick to enjoying the hobby in my own low key way. 

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23 minutes ago, Wayside Observer said:

Personally, I think safety vests are not very useful except for satisfying the minimum requirements that are set out by employers or situations where government regulations are in effect like construction sites.  The latter's let to some truly wild situations where I've had to be in head to toe construction gear at work to sit working keyboards and mice setting up equipment only because it's located somewhere that a construction permit's still in effect even though the renovation work's all but done.  Other situations like working on equipment outdoors in the middle of winter when it's dark, it's cold, falling ice and snow are a problem make more sense.  Two winters ago, the hood on my truck got a few dents in it from falling ice coming off a large piece of equipment.  You're damn right I was wearing my construction gear and a hard hat with that going on.  Safety vests don't help when you're working in an absolutely filthy area though so I prefer high viz coveralls which meet the visibility requirements and save my own clothes from getting shredded and sweated out.

So, great for meeting employer requirements, great for meeting government requirements, great from saving your own clothing from getting destroyed.  But for watching trains?  No.  Mainline freight?  What's a safety vest going to do?  The train can't steer.  The train can't stop quickly.  If the train derails, it's anyone's luck what happens next.  If something goes wrong in a moving mainline rail situation, the safety vest is going to be as torn to shreds as the person wearing it and it isn't going to change anything.  Skip the safety vest and act safely.  That's what I don't understand about the useless foamers wearing this garbage.  It isn't helping them.  It doesn't identify them as employees because they aren't employees.  What's the point?  That's why I was saying I've been seriously tempted to put the whole over the top head to toe outfit on and crash some event and make fun of the frothy foamers but like I said earlier, that joke would go wooshing by most people.

Personally I've never used them, but a US foamer I'm friends with will wear it when stopping on bridges so idiot drivers don't run into him at night. It's not for the train or the engineer. Completely get what you're saying though. 

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1 hour ago, Streety McCarface said:

Personally I've never used them, but a US foamer I'm friends with will wear it when stopping on bridges so idiot drivers don't run into him at night. It's not for the train or the engineer. Completely get what you're saying though. 

Ah ok, that makes sense in that situation.  I thought you meant casually standing near the line watching and photographing trains going by.

Don't get me wrong, high viz gear in situations like that where it's merited or mandatory is great and I swear by my construction gear whenever I'm doing anything heavy or messy even if it isn't strictly required.  There was one day last November, pretty much a year ago now, that I finished up work and decided to stay geared up to deliver a ton of junk to a storage unit after and it was after dark and raining.  The high viz rainsuit I was wearing plus hard hat plus boots were worth their weight in gold while I was unloading the truck.  After all that was done, I headed on the way home and had a breakdown which left me dead at the side of the road on a blind turn.  All that high viz gear saved my bacon in terms of being out in the middle of the road and visible to oncoming traffic and directing drivers around my dead truck but also keeping me warm and dry while I waited for CAA to show up.  The tow truck driver said he could see me well ahead of time and that it was a good thing I was wearing all that otherwise I'd have been at pretty significant risk of being hit between being after dark on an unlit road plus the added stopping distance from the rain and leaves, so yeah, if you're at the side of the road, anything that makes you more visible to traffic is definitely a good idea and I'm on side with your friend on that for sure.  Construction gear's great stuff when you're doing messy, heavy work, or out in the weather and that parka's the best winter coat I own but that's real, serious gear, not a dinky foamer vest.

And it's certainly not a godforsaken misappropriated Canada Post safety vest!  Honest to peter, that one, that left my jaw on the floor.  One of my American friends was sitting next to me on that PCC car and I had to explain what the logo on that was.  Foam, foam, foam.

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15 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

Rude doesn't even begin to approach describing the mealymouthed drivel that would come out of their mouths, never mind some of the nasty behaviour they'd indulge in.  I was talking with a TTC operator once and I mentioned HCRR and the guy blew up on me with a "YOU'RE WASTING YOUR TIME AND YOUR GAS IF YOU'RE GOING OUT THERE".  It caught me by surprise but it was a nice validating sanity check in that it was good to find out it isn't just me, other people feel the same way about the place.  Between the BS from Toronto Transportation Society, BS from HCRR, BS from the foamer minions when the straw that broke my back was laid, one of my best friends called me up and I vented a lot of four letter words and swore I was finished with geezers, finished with foamers, finished with societies, clubs, trolley museums, finished with the bunch of it.  It took about four years and a lot of work convincing me from one of my American friends to set foot inside of a trolley museum down there.  Cross generational divides have always existed and always will, but the younger incoming generation can't learn from the older generation that's going out if they refuse to teach and amuse themselves by snarling and crapping all over anyone that's younger or closed to the idea that anyone younger than them might have something to offer that they can learn from.

Personally, I think safety vests are not very useful except for satisfying the minimum requirements that are set out by employers or situations where government regulations are in effect like construction sites.  The latter's let to some truly wild situations where I've had to be in head to toe construction gear at work to sit working keyboards and mice setting up equipment only because it's located somewhere that a construction permit's still in effect even though the renovation work's all but done.  Other situations like working on equipment outdoors in the middle of winter when it's dark, it's cold, falling ice and snow are a problem make more sense.  Two winters ago, the hood on my truck got a few dents in it from falling ice coming off a large piece of equipment.  You're damn right I was wearing my construction gear and a hard hat with that going on.  Safety vests don't help when you're working in an absolutely filthy area though so I prefer high viz coveralls which meet the visibility requirements and save my own clothes from getting shredded and sweated out.

So, great for meeting employer requirements, great for meeting government requirements, great from saving your own clothing from getting destroyed.  But for watching trains?  No.  Mainline freight?  What's a safety vest going to do?  The train can't steer.  The train can't stop quickly.  If the train derails, it's anyone's luck what happens next.  If something goes wrong in a moving mainline rail situation, the safety vest is going to be as torn to shreds as the person wearing it and it isn't going to change anything.  Skip the safety vest and act safely.  That's what I don't understand about the useless foamers wearing this garbage.  It isn't helping them.  It doesn't identify them as employees because they aren't employees.  What's the point?  That's why I was saying I've been seriously tempted to put the whole over the top head to toe outfit on and crash some event and make fun of the frothy foamers but like I said earlier, that joke would go wooshing by most people.

I wonder if what you saw was Peter Witt 2300 partway along being transported from the Roundhouse Museum here to Exporail in Quebec where it is now?

They stuck with those onerous terms and conditions for the longest time too.  Commercial use of material made during those charters?  I'm sure that wasn't permitted.  GPS Video?  Oh, well there's an exception for that.  The double standards grated me to no end.  Honestly, with some of the stuff that Ray Neilson pulled, I really truly thought some responsible adult would've put a stop to things for the benefit of everyone involved before any major trouble hit the fan.  Remember the army of kids, the minions he always had?  He barged into some of their families houses and at lest one of their parents' businesses bellowing and raging and throwing his weight around.  I swear he must've gotten away with stuff like that because he'd say he was the "President of the TTS" and people must've thought they heard him say he was the "President of the TTC" instead.  Minor difference that might not be noticed when you've got this guy blowing his stack in your face at full volume.  Right to your point about making themselves look official with lots of big words.  They also did these business cards up for the executive committee members back then too.  Again, making themselves look officially official.

You know, I wonder how many parents had to comfort their kids after visiting the world's angriest Santa, thinking they'd been bad and weren't getting anything for Christmas.

How it went down on that ALRV.  Two of my friends from the Philadelphia area had come into town for a weekend visit and made arrangements to visit HCRR on the Saturday, run some cars there, then come into Toronto on the Sunday and ride around here and they asked if I'd like to come along on the Sunday so I said sure.  One of the HCRR guys joined them as well so it was the four of us for the whole day and the guy from HCRR was civil the whole time except for this one part of the day where he just turned to me and started cross examining me and tearing a strip out of me because of some perceived slight by some TTS member(s) at some unspecified point in the past.  I don't know why the dislike for TTS on part of HCRR exists or what caused it but I've seen other examples too; someone else got reamed out something else and told that they were going to ban all TTS members from the museum.  How that would work given that there has always been membership overlap between the two places is a mystery to me but it never developed into a serious proposal.  Personally, it's left me in an awkward position where a couple of my US friends have been pushing me to volunteer at HCRR because they think I'd be a valuable resource for them based on some of the stuff I've done when visiting down south but I don't want to do anything with the local organized foam scene.

The Doyle charters were always good.  On the whole, charters were a lot better 20+ years ago in almost every way.  The prices.  The possibilities of what could be done.  The people attending.  I don't ever remember Jack wearing a safety vest.  Back then, even the TTC employees didn't.  It was strictly a foamer thing and even then it was rare.  There was one PCC charter I was on and the routing was aggressive with the amount of distance the itinerary covered in the time that was booked and it became apparent how tight it was going to be not too long after we got going.  The weather also went south.  To save time, I offered to do the manual switches to save the time the operator would have to get up, leave the car, throw each switch, move the car up, put it back if it was on the main line, then get back in and go.  So there I was in pouring rain with a switchiron dashing out, fighting with switches that were filling with water and mud until the point would throw with a BANG! and a sheet of water would come flying out and I'd be jumping back out of the way to avoid getting soaked by more than just the rain, wait for the PCC to get moved up, run back in through the back door after resetting the switch and then go.  Other streetcar operators were smiling and laughing at this as were the people on the charter.  Sometimes operators on cars going the other way would stop, slide open their window and shout some advice on fighting with that particular switch and smile and laugh and give a thumbs up.  It was a great time on this dark, wet day.  Not a safety vest in sight, even when there was an actual case to be made for it.

It's gone.  G. O. N. E. gone.  It wasn't an every day occurrence but it wasn't exactly infrequent either to see subway operators standing in their cabs with a kid standing in front of them operator's hands on top of the kid's hands on subway controllers with the kid 'driving' the train.  You NEVER see this anymore.

I wasn't around for the M1 charter and didn't go on it but I remember the BS involved in it.  Do you remember how charters were a sticky point period with the TTS around then?  They took a bath on some highway coach charter that was poorly attended or mispriced or something and that led to a massive uproar and then it turned into every charter had to turn a profit and then the lovely terms and conditions showed up on the tickets.  Then, the TTS started to become a very profitable organization and at one point had a bank balance in the five digits that lead to some consternation on the treasurer about how if the thing were to be audited, with no assets, no liabilities, no charitable activities, and a fat cash balance, their non-profit and tax exempt status could get revoked.  He favoured a slow bleed down of the bank account over time rather than a big blowout on expensive showstopping charters.  I know they fought off the temptation to blow it on charters, the whole gotta make a profit thing remained, but I don't know if the bank balance started drifting down.

But yeah, after too much exposure to too much garbage over the late 1990s and early 2000s with the organized foam scene here plus the freelance safety vest foam crowd that's materialized over the intervening time, I can't do it.  I stick to what little bit I do on the internet and on my on or with close friends.  I stick to visiting a couple of trolley museums south of the border and help them out whenever I can.  I stick to enjoying the hobby in my own low key way. 

No it wasn't 2300 (I should have been more specific). 2300 was still in the roundhouse at the time. This "peter witt", and it could have been another type of vehicle that looked like a peter witt but it looked exactly like it, was yellow with black stripes and it was moving under its own power. Looked like a MOW vehicle. It's one of those things that are so out there that you're not even sure you saw it but I did and I remember it well. Unfortunately my shitty 110 camera ran out of film.

Yes I remember R.N's minions of kids because he tried making me one of them! It always seemed a little suspect to me and I was sure to give my mother full details of what was going on. The minute I did she forbade me from having anything to do with him and in hindsight that was a good choice. There are other stories about that guy that I will not get into. Come to think of it, there are way too many suspect people involved in that group that I feel comfortable with. Will not name names. I think I know whose business you're talking about but again, I will not name names. Sounds like you were seeing what I was seeing at the time but I was too young to put two and two together. Business cards for the "executive branch of the TTS" huh? 🤣 Did they travel around in Road Force 1 which was a retired Orion II as well? Did they amend the TTS constitution and sign executive orders with an e-pen or a real one? What SHAW cable channel was the TTS parliamentary channel again? I always miss question period.

That was the least jolly santa I've ever met. It would have been better if they had the "santas got a little get together he's late for" guy from Home Alone.🤣

Did something happen on a TTS fan trip to HCRR why there's such a grudge? I don't remember any TTS fan trips to the museum. They're so much alike in character you'd think they'd be the best of buddies. Banning TTS members sounds pretty serious. Would the members have to show their TTS ID cards before they're turned away or do they have a secret database in a secret barn? Maybe the command centre is in those two A7s for maximum inconspicuousness.

Yeah you're right. Charters were more fun back then. Film was finite so we didn't have foamers doing stupid stuff to get shots. I remember jack had on a TTC vest I think on that charter. I believe he was throwing switches too. I used to have an MTA safety vest that was unworn given to me by a friend and now I regret selling it. I hope it didn't end up in the hands of a guy who will use it for illicit purposes. I used to wear it on winter bike rides but stopped because it felt uncomfortable. I instead opted for being alert and knowing my surroundings LOL. I wouldn't wear one on charters or fanning trips, I'd feel like a tool. I was going to ask in the miscellaneous thread why the streetcar operators are wearing them now.

I remember. My younger bro was treated to a cab visit way back over 25 years ago. I remember the operator like this happened yesterday. He was decked out in full TTC regalia except the jacket and cap. He looked younger and had a mullet LOL! It was the old brown uniforms still by the way. He was in the guards car and he'd let kids honk the horn and he did the thing where he'd pinch his nose and honk the horn at the same time and kids loved it. Remember he's sounding the horn from the guard's car! You would probably get fired on the spot for doing that today, even if it was for kids. Those times I got to ride in the M1 cab was with a friend who was a TTC operator. One of the nicest and coolest people you'd ever meet. Scottish guy, older and funny as hell. We'd tell jokes and he'd tell me about his early days with the TTC when he used to drive the Brill buses. he'd let me do everything from blow the whistle, to changing the rollsign when we went OOS to actually driving. And yes he did have his hand on mine on the controller sometimes (he'd stop while he ate LOL) but that was because that particular M1 car had a controller that really needed some muscle to hold down. Muscle which I did not have back then. LOL! He'd never let me touch the brake though LOL. He did demonstrate how good the brakes on those cars were though by leaving the controller all the way open and braking. The train stopped just as if he had it off. So I am grateful for those memories and saddened it has become a thing of the past. Oh yeah, I forgot to add. Unfortunately he was a victim of foamers when another dude I was with was telling everybody about him and then a bunch of random people started asking him to drive the M1. It took me a while to convince him that it wasn't me. Lost a good friendship because of damn foamers.

YES. I remember that story about that charter that went bust! Didn't they throw in some random charter of some unknown fishbowl to make up for it? If not I may be thinking of some other wack charter but I do remember that story. 5 figure bank account? Why didn't they donate a large chunk of that to HCRR? Because of the grudge? Could they have restored something with that money? Everyone wants to see those A7s fixed up. I guess if they did that and had little money if their coffers, they wouldn't feel as officially official. They'd have to raise the TST (TTS Sales Tax) for sure.

Agreed. This year was the most I ever fanned in a while due to the CLRV retirement. Nowadays, I just enjoy the occasional ride. I enjoy riding the Flexities actually. I like how low to the ground they are, I like being able to use any door, and I like the HUGE picture windows. they're a bit rough riding and always feel like they're going to tip over when going through a turnout but I enjoy them. I am trying to get as much video of the CLRVs so I don't miss anything. After that I will probably shoot some buses and subways for posterity but in the end, I don't really care for the new stuff. I don't have time, money or energy to foam. I only go out to the west end if I can maximize the trip. And I sure as hell will not be seen with a safety vest. I won't even wear transit gear like hats. I don't want to be identified as a potential foamer. So I enjoy the hobby alone and low key just as I started doing before I had the misfortune of meeting all these whackjobs. Way way back when it was fun.

14 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

Ah ok, that makes sense in that situation.  I thought you meant casually standing near the line watching and photographing trains going by.

Don't get me wrong, high viz gear in situations like that where it's merited or mandatory is great and I swear by my construction gear whenever I'm doing anything heavy or messy even if it isn't strictly required.  There was one day last November, pretty much a year ago now, that I finished up work and decided to stay geared up to deliver a ton of junk to a storage unit after and it was after dark and raining.  The high viz rainsuit I was wearing plus hard hat plus boots were worth their weight in gold while I was unloading the truck.  After all that was done, I headed on the way home and had a breakdown which left me dead at the side of the road on a blind turn.  All that high viz gear saved my bacon in terms of being out in the middle of the road and visible to oncoming traffic and directing drivers around my dead truck but also keeping me warm and dry while I waited for CAA to show up.  The tow truck driver said he could see me well ahead of time and that it was a good thing I was wearing all that otherwise I'd have been at pretty significant risk of being hit between being after dark on an unlit road plus the added stopping distance from the rain and leaves, so yeah, if you're at the side of the road, anything that makes you more visible to traffic is definitely a good idea and I'm on side with your friend on that for sure.  Construction gear's great stuff when you're doing messy, heavy work, or out in the weather and that parka's the best winter coat I own but that's real, serious gear, not a dinky foamer vest.

And it's certainly not a godforsaken misappropriated Canada Post safety vest!  Honest to peter, that one, that left my jaw on the floor.  One of my American friends was sitting next to me on that PCC car and I had to explain what the logo on that was.  Foam, foam, foam.

LMFAO

That reminds me of back in the 90s, where fashion came to die. In middle school there was this cat who thought he was baller by wearing his dad's Canada Post shirt and the jeans with the big chain (an actual chain!) hanging on the side a-la 90s. Damn grunge heads.

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On 11/18/2019 at 11:07 PM, Streety McCarface said:

And even then, the foamers (and I mean real foamers, not transit fans) I know would never do crazy shit like this, regardless of income, past experiences, and whatnot. 

Doesn't even have to be foamers necessarily. Some (mostly young) people just like to vandalize public property in general, which may or may not include transit vehicles. Think back to the mob that destroyed the ES buses during the Raptors game, or the amount of graffiti there used to be on NYC subways. Speaking of which, the other day while passing Davisville yard I saw 576X and one of the cars (5764 I think) had graffiti on it.

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12 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

Yes I remember R.N's minions of kids because he tried making me one of them! It always seemed a little suspect to me and I was sure to give my mother full details of what was going on. The minute I did she forbade me from having anything to do with him and in hindsight that was a good choice. There are other stories about that guy that I will not get into. Come to think of it, there are way too many suspect people involved in that group that I feel comfortable with. Will not name names. I think I know whose business you're talking about but again, I will not name names. Sounds like you were seeing what I was seeing at the time but I was too young to put two and two together. Business cards for the "executive branch of the TTS" huh? 🤣 Did they travel around in Road Force 1 which was a retired Orion II as well? Did they amend the TTS constitution and sign executive orders with an e-pen or a real one? What SHAW cable channel was the TTS parliamentary channel again? I always miss question period.

it's long enough ago now that I don't even remember a lot of the names anymore.  Looking back at things now from a late 2019 perspective, it was unreal and from the benefit of being 20+ years older and wiser a couple of things stick out like a sore thumb to me.  The rest of the TTS executive committee for example puzzled me then but even more now about why nobody put their foot down, said that the BS - all of it - has to stop and put the brakes on it.  Were they so caught up in the morass that everything was accepted as normal and acceptable course of business stuff?  Were they looking the other way because after taking the beating over the losses on the highway coach charter, the rising bank account was a welcome sight and the money coming in started paying for nice things like every newsletter printed in colour instead of only special issues?  I don't know.

It's another one of those situations where people have told me it's changed for the better over the intervening time but I have no desire to go back for many reasons.

12 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

Did something happen on a TTS fan trip to HCRR why there's such a grudge? I don't remember any TTS fan trips to the museum. They're so much alike in character you'd think they'd be the best of buddies. Banning TTS members sounds pretty serious. Would the members have to show their TTS ID cards before they're turned away or do they have a secret database in a secret barn? Maybe the command centre is in those two A7s for maximum inconspicuousness.

I honestly have no idea when or how the grudge got started.  Like I said in that earlier post, you'd think the two organizations would be peas in a pod but they aren't.  Try out this contradiction:  Even with that grudge going full blast in the late 90s/early 2000s, HCRR had no problem buying Ray Neilson's videos and selling them in the gift shop despite him being the president of the hated TTS and he had no problems selling to them.  Grudges can, apparently, be set aside when there's good money to be made.  So much for sticking to one's principles.  And that's what has truly bothered me here with both organizations: everything's so elastic based on who you are, and most people consistently land on the losing side, who you're dealing with, the agendas at play, and the double standards are rampant.  It's disgusting.

12 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

YES. I remember that story about that charter that went bust! Didn't they throw in some random charter of some unknown fishbowl to make up for it? If not I may be thinking of some other wack charter but I do remember that story. 5 figure bank account? Why didn't they donate a large chunk of that to HCRR? Because of the grudge? Could they have restored something with that money? Everyone wants to see those A7s fixed up. I guess if they did that and had little money if their coffers, they wouldn't feel as officially official. They'd have to raise the TST (TTS Sales Tax) for sure.

I don't know how all that went down with the highway coach charter other than it lost a lot of money and there was hell to pay afterwards for a long time over that.  The five figure bank account definitely caused some consternation back in the early 2000s because they were afraid of losing their charitable tax exempt status over getting too wealthy as a non-profit.  You raise a good point about donating to HCRR; I can't think of any example of the TTS doing anything charitable for anyone.  All the do are meetings with the gripefest followed by a slideshow, the occasional charter, and the annual memorabilia night.  I guess that's where the TST increase is going to take place.  Maybe the 15% commission the club scoops to fund themselves gets increased to 25% or 50% and if you don't like it, well, someone on the executive committee might just pay you a visit and confiscate what you were thinking of selling for free without reimbursement.

12 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

Agreed. This year was the most I ever fanned in a while due to the CLRV retirement. Nowadays, I just enjoy the occasional ride. I enjoy riding the Flexities actually. I like how low to the ground they are, I like being able to use any door, and I like the HUGE picture windows. they're a bit rough riding and always feel like they're going to tip over when going through a turnout but I enjoy them. I am trying to get as much video of the CLRVs so I don't miss anything. After that I will probably shoot some buses and subways for posterity but in the end, I don't really care for the new stuff. I don't have time, money or energy to foam. I only go out to the west end if I can maximize the trip. And I sure as hell will not be seen with a safety vest. I won't even wear transit gear like hats. I don't want to be identified as a potential foamer. So I enjoy the hobby alone and low key just as I started doing before I had the misfortune of meeting all these whackjobs. Way way back when it was fun.

It's the wind down of the CLRV and ALRV area that's dragged me out of the woodwork.  Previously, I'd go and enjoy what I'd enjoy on my own or with a couple of friends once in a while and that was it.  The new stuff doesn't interest me either.  Mediocre, in a word, is where the bar's been set for design and construction of the new stuff.  Right now, I don't anticipate going out for much until the T1s get wound down since those are the last of the classic married pair subway cars.  Once those go, wow, the system will be so bland compared to what we got to enjoy in the old days.  I don't have the time or money or energy either and definitely not the inclination to foam.  Working full time, my own part time business, commuting, football, other hobbies, squeeze a couple weekend trips a year in for vacations, get put on the road for work several times a year, I'm spoken for.  There's no space for foaming on the list.  The unfortunate thing is that it's easy enough to simply not go to TTS and HCRR and leave them to do their on thing on their own time at their own places, the public events like the last runs and the open houses or the one one day a year the PCC goes out for the public, the nutcases show up with their travelling roadshow of buffoonery and it's hard to avoid without passing up things like that completely.  That's a shame.

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7 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

it's long enough ago now that I don't even remember a lot of the names anymore.  Looking back at things now from a late 2019 perspective, it was unreal and from the benefit of being 20+ years older and wiser a couple of things stick out like a sore thumb to me.  The rest of the TTS executive committee for example puzzled me then but even more now about why nobody put their foot down, said that the BS - all of it - has to stop and put the brakes on it.  Were they so caught up in the morass that everything was accepted as normal and acceptable course of business stuff?  Were they looking the other way because after taking the beating over the losses on the highway coach charter, the rising bank account was a welcome sight and the money coming in started paying for nice things like every newsletter printed in colour instead of only special issues?  I don't know.

It's another one of those situations where people have told me it's changed for the better over the intervening time but I have no desire to go back for many reasons.

I honestly have no idea when or how the grudge got started.  Like I said in that earlier post, you'd think the two organizations would be peas in a pod but they aren't.  Try out this contradiction:  Even with that grudge going full blast in the late 90s/early 2000s, HCRR had no problem buying Ray Neilson's videos and selling them in the gift shop despite him being the president of the hated TTS and he had no problems selling to them.  Grudges can, apparently, be set aside when there's good money to be made.  So much for sticking to one's principles.  And that's what has truly bothered me here with both organizations: everything's so elastic based on who you are, and most people consistently land on the losing side, who you're dealing with, the agendas at play, and the double standards are rampant.  It's disgusting.

I don't know how all that went down with the highway coach charter other than it lost a lot of money and there was hell to pay afterwards for a long time over that.  The five figure bank account definitely caused some consternation back in the early 2000s because they were afraid of losing their charitable tax exempt status over getting too wealthy as a non-profit.  You raise a good point about donating to HCRR; I can't think of any example of the TTS doing anything charitable for anyone.  All the do are meetings with the gripefest followed by a slideshow, the occasional charter, and the annual memorabilia night.  I guess that's where the TST increase is going to take place.  Maybe the 15% commission the club scoops to fund themselves gets increased to 25% or 50% and if you don't like it, well, someone on the executive committee might just pay you a visit and confiscate what you were thinking of selling for free without reimbursement.

It's the wind down of the CLRV and ALRV area that's dragged me out of the woodwork.  Previously, I'd go and enjoy what I'd enjoy on my own or with a couple of friends once in a while and that was it.  The new stuff doesn't interest me either.  Mediocre, in a word, is where the bar's been set for design and construction of the new stuff.  Right now, I don't anticipate going out for much until the T1s get wound down since those are the last of the classic married pair subway cars.  Once those go, wow, the system will be so bland compared to what we got to enjoy in the old days.  I don't have the time or money or energy either and definitely not the inclination to foam.  Working full time, my own part time business, commuting, football, other hobbies, squeeze a couple weekend trips a year in for vacations, get put on the road for work several times a year, I'm spoken for.  There's no space for foaming on the list.  The unfortunate thing is that it's easy enough to simply not go to TTS and HCRR and leave them to do their on thing on their own time at their own places, the public events like the last runs and the open houses or the one one day a year the PCC goes out for the public, the nutcases show up with their travelling roadshow of buffoonery and it's hard to avoid without passing up things like that completely.  That's a shame.

I am not entirely sure but around the time I joined is when sites like Transit Toronto started. So maybe they were seeing an influx of fans because of the internet and that's why their revenue increased? Dude. Speaking of which. Do you remember all the BS surrounding the TTS website?!?!😂 Apparently there was in-fighting between webmasters and all the drama was centered around you-know-who who wanted the webmaster to do exclusive work on his videos. Yup, he was hiring kids to work on his videos, free of charge of course. And all this was perfectly fine with the Time Lords...I mean Transit Lords. I saw it, I was there, and in hindsight, that was when I began regretting ever getting involved in organized foam groups.

I forgot about that. They were selling those tapes in the store. So maybe their problem was with the rest of the group and not Ray Neilson. The drama must have occurred before or after I joined because I didn't hear or see anything to suggest otherwise.

I don't remember them doing anything charitable either except maybe sending me my M1 charter ticket before the cheque cleared LOL. I dunno what the fees are for the room at Metro hall were but seeing as it was monthy, and as you say, all they do is have a geezer fest at the back and then a slideshow, I don't think that would cost anywhere near 5 figures. if it did I'd have had the meetings in a high school gym. Why aren't they donating to the HCRR. If that were me all surplus cash would go to the museum. They desperately need it. I was hoping that one day the Gloucesters would get restored but now they are on static display so I guess that will never happen. Same with the M1s. They could have easily restored the A7s with the money though. They don't have a working PCC representative of that era (1970s rebuild). I'd have restored one of the 4600s to CLRV colours as well. The museum does some very weird things. Like when they painted the Brampton Old Look in HSR colours? WTF?

Mediocre and plastic looking is the word. Can't they throw in a little bit of chrome to class things up a bit? 😂 It will definitely be the end of an era when the T1s retire as we'll never be able to see into the tunnels again. That won't be for a few years (I can't believe those cars are nearly 25 years old already). The nutjobs is why I didn't attend the last ALRV run. I didn't want the foamtards to ruin my memories of those cars as those were literally the first streetcars I ever rode. I have a video I shot last year near my birthday of an ALRV entering service at about 7:30AM on a sunday and that was after a really nice CLRV ride from Long Branch to Russel. So I have a nice parting memory of those cars free of foam. The last run of the CLRV though, I am going to have to keep my wits about me. It's going to be a sad sight. Don't be surprised if you see one or two characters like the guy at 1:19 in this video. HAHAHA!

 

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On 11/20/2019 at 2:12 PM, Wayside Observer said:

Right now, I don't anticipate going out for much until the T1s get wound down since those are the last of the classic married pair subway cars.  Once those go, wow, the system will be so bland compared to what we got to enjoy in the old days.

On 11/20/2019 at 9:53 PM, Downsview 108 said:

It will definitely be the end of an era when the T1s retire as we'll never be able to see into the tunnels again. That won't be for a few years (I can't believe those cars are nearly 25 years old already).

The T1s are barely over halfway through their (extended) lifespan. By the time the last T1 supposedly retires, the oldest TRs would be 30, so it's possible the TRs will follow soon after the T1s (unless the TTC decides to give them a life extension as well, and/or go from a 30 year life to a 40+ year life for all their subways). The T1s always seemed bland and boring compared to the Hawkers, but compared to having only TR type trains (like the Hong Kong MTR and several other systems), the T1s definitely make our subway system more interesting.

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On 11/21/2019 at 10:15 AM, Downsview 108 said:

WOW. I stand corrected. I was in my early teens when those cars came in and they'll be gone when I am retired. 😲

Yup, its crazy. I was barely 18-19 when the Hawkers retired, but I'll be 46 when the T1s retire (the oldest T1s are about 7 months younger than me 😂). Here's another crazy fact: there will be a bigger gap between the H6 and T1 retirement (2014-2041) than there was between the Gloucester and H6 retirement (1990-2014). Probably the biggest gap between subway retirements in TTC history (past and future).

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3 minutes ago, 81-717 said:

Yup, its crazy. I was barely 18-19 when the Hawkers retired, but I'll be 46 when the T1s retire (the oldest T1s are about 7 months younger than me 😂). Here's another crazy fact: there will be a bigger gap between the Hawker and T1 retirement (2014-2041) than there was between the Gloucester and Hawker retirement (1990-2014). Probably the biggest gap between subway retirements in TTC history (past and future).

The TTC really is broke. 😂

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36 minutes ago, 81-717 said:

 

The T1s are barely over halfway through their (extended) lifespan. By the time the last T1 supposedly retires, the oldest TRs would be 30, so it's possible the TRs will follow soon after the T1s (unless the TTC decides to give them a life extension as well, and/or go from a 30 year life to a 40+ year life for all their subways). The T1s always seemed bland and boring compared to the Hawkers, but compared to having only TR type trains (like the Hong Kong MTR and several other systems), the T1s definitely make our subway more interesting.

From a foaming perspective, I disagree. They were very unique from the H-series, but they were plentiful. It was always rarer catching an H4-6 than it was catching a T1. 
 

They still look great, have a unique acceleration system, and have the railfan window. What transit fan wouldn’t love them. 
 

The thing I like least about them is the door chime (the H series wins out there). 

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30 minutes ago, Streety McCarface said:

They still look great, have a unique acceleration system, and have the railfan window. What transit fan wouldn’t love them.

All of those things are equally true of the 5s. And the T1 propulsion system is hardly unique, the R110A in New York and some trams (I think in Edmonton or Calgary, can't remember right now, but I do remember watching a video of one) have the same propulsion and sound the same. Unfortunately the same isn't true of the 5, those were truly unique, the closest thing to them is the CLRV, which uses similar propulsion but not quite the same.

30 minutes ago, Streety McCarface said:

The thing I like least about them is the door chime (the H series wins out there). 

Agreed. Don't know why they changed it, other than that the Hawker chimes were pre-recorded and the original T1 chimes (which were now replaced) were mechanical.

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13 minutes ago, 81-717 said:

All of those things are equally true of the 5s. And the T1 propulsion system is hardly unique, the R110A in New York and some trams (I think in Edmonton or Calgary, can't remember right now, but I do remember watching a video of one) have the same propulsion and sound the same. Unfortunately the same isn't true of the 5, those were truly unique, the closest thing to them is the CLRV, which uses similar propulsion but not quite the same.

Agreed. Don't know why they changed it, other than that the Hawker chimes were pre-recorded and the original T1 chimes (which were now replaced) were mechanical.

The H5s and the CLRVs have the exact same motors and choppers.

Likewise the H6s and ALRVs.

Ugh, those original T1 chimes were enough to give one a seizure. Sounded like a Philip Glass composition.

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30 minutes ago, 81-717 said:

All of those things are equally true of the 5s. And the T1 propulsion system is hardly unique, the R110A in New York and some trams (I think in Edmonton or Calgary, can't remember right now, but I do remember watching a video of one) have the same propulsion and sound the same. Unfortunately the same isn't true of the 5, those were truly unique, the closest thing to them is the CLRV, which uses similar propulsion but not quite the same.

Agreed. Don't know why they changed it, other than that the Hawker chimes were pre-recorded and the original T1 chimes (which were now replaced) were mechanical.

The some of the Kawasaki DART light rail vehicles have them if I remember correctly. Regardless, the R110A is a foamer's wet dream, and it was only a test train. I'd argue that's small enough of a niche to be considered "unique", especially in the rapid transit world.

In general though, I don't even think foamers or rail fans care how rare a sound is (unless there are certain circumstances (like it was a special train in a fleet that received different traction motors than the rest of the fleet)). They, at least in NYC, really only care what the sound is. The M7s aren't particularly unique, but the traction sound will make any railfan foam. 

Don't get me wrong, love the H series (even the 6's), I just wouldn't consider the T1's bland by any measure, especially when compared to some of the rolling stock we see today. 

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On 11/21/2019 at 11:26 AM, Downsview 108 said:

The H5s and the CLRVs have the exact same motors and choppers.

Likewise the H6s and ALRVs.

The ALRV and H6 may be identical in terms of motors, but the CLRV motors were slightly different than the H5 (more powerful, according to wikipedia, 136 kw vs 94 kw). In any case, the CLRVs hardly sound like H5s aside from the buzzing (ditto for ALRVs vs H6s)

On 11/21/2019 at 11:36 AM, Streety McCarface said:

Don't get me wrong, love the H series (even the 6's), I just wouldn't consider the T1's bland by any measure, especially when compared to some of the rolling stock we see today. 

I too have come to that conclusion by now (took me a while lol). I like them more than the TRs thats for sure (not that I don't like the TRs).

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Just now, 81-717 said:

The ALRV and H6 may be identical in terms of motors, but the CLRV motors were slightly different than the H5 (more powerful, according to wikipedia, 136 kw vs 94 kw). In any case, the CLRVs hardly sound like H5s aside from the buzzing (ditto for ALRVs vs H6s)

I see. Thanks for that.

That buzzing sound reminds me of this old RCA cassette walkman I had back in the day. When you let the walkman play without any tape inside you could hear the buzzing through the headphones. Like something internally was picking it up. I used to ride the CLRVs doing that all the time LOL. Wasted a ton of batteries too.

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13 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

I am not entirely sure but around the time I joined is when sites like Transit Toronto started. So maybe they were seeing an influx of fans because of the internet and that's why their revenue increased? Dude. Speaking of which. Do you remember all the BS surrounding the TTS website?!?!😂 Apparently there was in-fighting between webmasters and all the drama was centered around you-know-who who wanted the webmaster to do exclusive work on his videos. Yup, he was hiring kids to work on his videos, free of charge of course. And all this was perfectly fine with the Time Lords...I mean Transit Lords. I saw it, I was there, and in hindsight, that was when I began regretting ever getting involved in organized foam groups.

I forgot about that. They were selling those tapes in the store. So maybe their problem was with the rest of the group and not Ray Neilson. The drama must have occurred before or after I joined because I didn't hear or see anything to suggest otherwise.

Yes, this was around the time of early websites being made by average people using geocities.com and services like that, and that helped kids find all sorts of things like that; publicity for small fan organizations like that wasn't limited to pinup flyers on bulletin boards at the community centre and pamphlets at the cash register stand at George's Trains.  The infighting among webmasters was something else.  I think that's partly what tripped up Alan Gryfe, he registered a domain that he thought the TTS could use and put a placeholder website on it and they went ballistic and it snowballed from there.  And the kids, yes, any teenager that ever set foot in a highschool comm tech classroom and sat down in front of a pair of crappy VHS machines and used one hand to hit pay on one deck and the other hand to hit record on the other and did a tape to tape crash record got hired.  "Hired."  The number of kids that got duped into thinking they had a "part time job" or a "summer job" or a "co-op placement" was something else and the stories about parents going ballistic on their kids for getting suckered into doing a job that never paid were something else and then some of the kids would screw around consequences be damned as an up-yours back at the TTS and former "employer" which would then blow back on everyone because of the reputation black eye it was causing.

And yes, your recollection is exactly the same as mine, the executive committee of transit lords was fine with this.  Think about it, it had everything going for it:  Incoming young members in theory should've been good for the long term viability of the TTS as a club.  That bank account, that balance started turning around with the membership fees they were paying.  Pack half a dozen or 10 kids on to a charter and suddenly it goes from being a money loser to economically viable with the number of fares being collected.  It was great for them and they made sure to keep a good thing going and not ask any difficult questions about the details.  Maybe they all signed up for the correspondence course from the Richard M. Nixon Institute for Executive Branch Excesses or something because they sure bought into the "it isn't illegal when the president does it" and "my dear leader, my dear leader can do no wrong" school of thought instead of looking at the mess, asking the questions, and putting a stop to the nonsense even if it meant a lower bank balance, a few less charters and the newsletter stays in black and white.

13 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

I don't remember them doing anything charitable either except maybe sending me my M1 charter ticket before the cheque cleared LOL. I dunno what the fees are for the room at Metro hall were but seeing as it was monthy, and as you say, all they do is have a geezer fest at the back and then a slideshow, I don't think that would cost anywhere near 5 figures. if it did I'd have had the meetings in a high school gym. Why aren't they donating to the HCRR. If that were me all surplus cash would go to the museum. They desperately need it. I was hoping that one day the Gloucesters would get restored but now they are on static display so I guess that will never happen. Same with the M1s. They could have easily restored the A7s with the money though. They don't have a working PCC representative of that era (1970s rebuild). I'd have restored one of the 4600s to CLRV colours as well. The museum does some very weird things. Like when they painted the Brampton Old Look in HSR colours? WTF?

Metro Hall has always provided the meeting room free of charge because of their status as a non-profit.  That's one reason why the concern about the fattening bank account.  Losing the non-profit status would've meant the end of making out like a bunch of bandits on the freebie handouts.

Your name is now on a list.  The Gloucesters are or were a sore subject with a bunch of HCRR people.  Actually, that was one of the main thrusts of the chunks that the guy from HCRR was ripping out of me when the four of us were riding in the back of that ALRV.  The story was he was at a TTS meeting and some people said they really needed to repaint the Gloucesters.  Saying that was tantamount to high crimes and misdemeanours apparently.  I got raked over the coals for that and a bunch of other grievances, meanwhile I'm sitting there thinking "I can't believe I'm wasting a day off listening to this shit", thinking back to August or September 90 and the last time I saw a G train in service and I remember being floored by how tired the thing looked.  That's when I knew the end for the last of those trains was going to be soon.  They needed to be painted, honestly, they were due to be cycled through the shops for a regular overhaul then, except they were all being retired and scrapped.  Add the time spent outdoors at HCRR which wasn't going to do any favours so yes, they'd be due for painting for sure.  I wonder if that guy gets upset whenever someone states the obvious about something else like saying the sun rises in the east.

13 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

Mediocre and plastic looking is the word. Can't they throw in a little bit of chrome to class things up a bit? 😂 It will definitely be the end of an era when the T1s retire as we'll never be able to see into the tunnels again. That won't be for a few years (I can't believe those cars are nearly 25 years old already). The nutjobs is why I didn't attend the last ALRV run. I didn't want the foamtards to ruin my memories of those cars as those were literally the first streetcars I ever rode. I have a video I shot last year near my birthday of an ALRV entering service at about 7:30AM on a sunday and that was after a really nice CLRV ride from Long Branch to Russel. So I have a nice parting memory of those cars free of foam. The last run of the CLRV though, I am going to have to keep my wits about me. It's going to be a sad sight. Don't be surprised if you see one or two characters like the guy at 1:19 in this video. HAHAHA!

I went and it was a foam fest.

1 hour ago, 81-717 said:

The T1s are barely over halfway through their (extended) lifespan. By the time the last T1 supposedly retires, the oldest TRs would be 30, so it's possible the TRs will follow soon after the T1s (unless the TTC decides to give them a life extension as well, and/or go from a 30 year life to a 40+ year life for all their subways). The T1s always seemed bland and boring compared to the Hawkers, but compared to having only TR type trains (like the Hong Kong MTR and several other systems), the T1s definitely make our subway more interesting.

14 minutes ago, Downsview 108 said:

The H5s and the CLRVs have the exact same motors and choppers.

Likewise the H6s and ALRVs.

Ugh, those original T1 chimes were enough to give one a seizure. Sounded like a Philip Glass composition.

What happens with the T1s is still subject to change.  Originally, the Scarborough subway extension was going to be built with ATC/ATO signalling and the rest of the Bloor-Danforth line was going to be resignalled once the project on Yonge finishes up for the same reasons they did Yonge.  Get rid of ageing equipment and be able to pack more trains per hour through the line.  The original timeline meant moving up junking the T1s and replacing with a fleet of cars with ATC/ATO capability built in right out of the box.  Remember the TTC originally planned to run a mix of T1 and Rocket on Yonge until they decided to replace the signalling system and decided that it wasn't worth retrofitting the T1s in their last years of service.  So the Toronto Rocket order got extended to equip the whole line plus the Pocket Rocket trains for Sheppard.  So, they're swimming in subway cars down at Greenwood with far more T1s than they need for Bloor Danforth.  Somehow, the plan got changed to rebuilding and equipping the T1s with ATC/ATO rather than replace them.  Now if they're going to do that, wouldn't it have made more sense to do that almost 10 years ago and leverage the most time out of the investment and avoid overpurchasing subway cars?  I don't know.  The last I heard was that the ATC/ATO addition got dropped and they're talking about doing SSE with traditional signalling and maintaining the signals on the existing portion of the line as-is until the T1 rebuild fleet is finally retired.  The point is, the TTC's subway fleet planning has been so all over the map, who knows what's going to happen.

The H6 and ALRVs had the same motors and choppers.  The H5 and CLRVs had very similar choppers but not the same motors.  The CLRVs have monomotor trucks but the subway cars have traditional two motor trucks and they aren't the same machine; drive shaft exiting at one end only to connect with one gear box and a lower horespower rating than what the CLRVs had, but more than made up for by going from two motors to four per car.

57 minutes ago, Streety McCarface said:

From a foaming perspective, I disagree. They were very unique from the H-series, but they were plentiful. It was always rarer catching an H4-6 than it was catching a T1. 
 

They still look great, have a unique acceleration system, and have the railfan window. What transit fan wouldn’t love them. 

It's a matter of perspective.  Personally, I've always thought the T1s were a good, solid classic subway car even if bland.  Compared to a Toronto Rocket, I much prefer them.  Compared to the H cars, the M cars, the G cars, bland.  When I was a kid, Gloucesters were plentiful and it wasn't an issue if you didn't catch one on the first try, just let a train or two go by and you'd get one.  Why ride anything else when those were easily available?  Then as they got scarce, for everyday get from point A to point B without waiting an eternity you'd take what you got, but jeez, back when it was easy to be selective about things, it really boiled down to "Gloucesters" and "Everything Else" on the Yonge line and the Bloor-Danforth was just boring.  Nitpicking the door chimes wasn't a thing because there were none.  You had the guard leaning out the window, a PEEEEEeeeeeeeEEEEEEP on the whistle and then the doors would close, then the MG set or air compressor depending on the car you were on would slow down a touch and the lights would dim as the train started off and if you were in a tunnel with the windows open, you could hear the controller notching up.

44 minutes ago, 81-717 said:

The ALRV and H6 may be identical in terms of motors, but the CLRV motors were slightly different than the H5 (more powerful, according to wikipedia, 136 kw vs 94 kw). In any case, the CLRVs hardly sound like H5s aside from the buzzing (ditto for ALRVs vs H6s)

They're actually significantly different motors.  The CLRVs have monomotor trucks and only two motors per car which was a big fad in the late 1970s.  The Boeings were built the same way and had a lot of equipment from Garrett as well.  So, the CLRV motor is a larger machine with a greater horespower rating on it and the drive shaft carries through both ends of the rotor and out both ends of the motor so it can drive a gear box at each end and couple the single motor in the truck to both axles.  The H5 motor was a more traditional traction motor with the drive shaft on the rotor exiting at one end, driving one gearbox and one axle only and had a lower HP rating which I mentioned in my other post was more than made up for by having for motors per car instead of two.  Otherwise, they do have similarities.  Both were made by Garrett, both were 300 V machines, both had separately excited fields rather than your classic series DC traction motor which is how they got the energy efficiency and electric braking almost to a standstill out of direct current motors that normally wasn't possible with DC machines.

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14 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

Yes, this was around the time of early websites being made by average people using geocities.com and services like that, and that helped kids find all sorts of things like that; publicity for small fan organizations like that wasn't limited to pinup flyers on bulletin boards at the community centre and pamphlets at the cash register stand at George's Trains.  The infighting among webmasters was something else.  I think that's partly what tripped up Alan Gryfe, he registered a domain that he thought the TTS could use and put a placeholder website on it and they went ballistic and it snowballed from there.  And the kids, yes, any teenager that ever set foot in a highschool comm tech classroom and sat down in front of a pair of crappy VHS machines and used one hand to hit pay on one deck and the other hand to hit record on the other and did a tape to tape crash record got hired.  "Hired."  The number of kids that got duped into thinking they had a "part time job" or a "summer job" or a "co-op placement" was something else and the stories about parents going ballistic on their kids for getting suckered into doing a job that never paid were something else and then some of the kids would screw around consequences be damned as an up-yours back at the TTS and former "employer" which would then blow back on everyone because of the reputation black eye it was causing.

And yes, your recollection is exactly the same as mine, the executive committee of transit lords was fine with this.  Think about it, it had everything going for it:  Incoming young members in theory should've been good for the long term viability of the TTS as a club.  That bank account, that balance started turning around with the membership fees they were paying.  Pack half a dozen or 10 kids on to a charter and suddenly it goes from being a money loser to economically viable with the number of fares being collected.  It was great for them and they made sure to keep a good thing going and not ask any difficult questions about the details.  Maybe they all signed up for the correspondence course from the Richard M. Nixon Institute for Executive Branch Excesses or something because they sure bought into the "it isn't illegal when the president does it" and "my dear leader, my dear leader can do no wrong" school of thought instead of looking at the mess, asking the questions, and putting a stop to the nonsense even if it meant a lower bank balance, a few less charters and the newsletter stays in black and white.

Metro Hall has always provided the meeting room free of charge because of their status as a non-profit.  That's one reason why the concern about the fattening bank account.  Losing the non-profit status would've meant the end of making out like a bunch of bandits on the freebie handouts.

Your name is now on a list.  The Gloucesters are or were a sore subject with a bunch of HCRR people.  Actually, that was one of the main thrusts of the chunks that the guy from HCRR was ripping out of me when the four of us were riding in the back of that ALRV.  The story was he was at a TTS meeting and some people said they really needed to repaint the Gloucesters.  Saying that was tantamount to high crimes and misdemeanours apparently.  I got raked over the coals for that and a bunch of other grievances, meanwhile I'm sitting there thinking "I can't believe I'm wasting a day off listening to this shit", thinking back to August or September 90 and the last time I saw a G train in service and I remember being floored by how tired the thing looked.  That's when I knew the end for the last of those trains was going to be soon.  They needed to be painted, honestly, they were due to be cycled through the shops for a regular overhaul then, except they were all being retired and scrapped.  Add the time spent outdoors at HCRR which wasn't going to do any favours so yes, they'd be due for painting for sure.  I wonder if that guy gets upset whenever someone states the obvious about something else like saying the sun rises in the east.

I went and it was a foam fest.

What happens with the T1s is still subject to change.  Originally, the Scarborough subway extension was going to be built with ATC/ATO signalling and the rest of the Bloor-Danforth line was going to be resignalled once the project on Yonge finishes up for the same reasons they did Yonge.  Get rid of ageing equipment and be able to pack more trains per hour through the line.  The original timeline meant moving up junking the T1s and replacing with a fleet of cars with ATC/ATO capability built in right out of the box.  Remember the TTC originally planned to run a mix of T1 and Rocket on Yonge until they decided to replace the signalling system and decided that it wasn't worth retrofitting the T1s in their last years of service.  So the Toronto Rocket order got extended to equip the whole line plus the Pocket Rocket trains for Sheppard.  So, they're swimming in subway cars down at Greenwood with far more T1s than they need for Bloor Danforth.  Somehow, the plan got changed to rebuilding and equipping the T1s with ATC/ATO rather than replace them.  Now if they're going to do that, wouldn't it have made more sense to do that almost 10 years ago and leverage the most time out of the investment and avoid overpurchasing subway cars?  I don't know.  The last I heard was that the ATC/ATO addition got dropped and they're talking about doing SSE with traditional signalling and maintaining the signals on the existing portion of the line as-is until the T1 rebuild fleet is finally retired.  The point is, the TTC's subway fleet planning has been so all over the map, who knows what's going to happen.

The H6 and ALRVs had the same motors and choppers.  The H5 and CLRVs had very similar choppers but not the same motors.  The CLRVs have monomotor trucks but the subway cars have traditional two motor trucks and they aren't the same machine; drive shaft exiting at one end only to connect with one gear box and a lower horespower rating than what the CLRVs had, but more than made up for by going from two motors to four per car.

It's a matter of perspective.  Personally, I've always thought the T1s were a good, solid classic subway car even if bland.  Compared to a Toronto Rocket, I much prefer them.  Compared to the H cars, the M cars, the G cars, bland.  When I was a kid, Gloucesters were plentiful and it wasn't an issue if you didn't catch one on the first try, just let a train or two go by and you'd get one.  Why ride anything else when those were easily available?  Then as they got scarce, for everyday get from point A to point B without waiting an eternity you'd take what you got, but jeez, back when it was easy to be selective about things, it really boiled down to "Gloucesters" and "Everything Else" on the Yonge line and the Bloor-Danforth was just boring.  Nitpicking the door chimes wasn't a thing because there were none.  You had the guard leaning out the window, a PEEEEEeeeeeeeEEEEEEP on the whistle and then the doors would close, then the MG set or air compressor depending on the car you were on would slow down a touch and the lights would dim as the train started off and if you were in a tunnel with the windows open, you could hear the controller notching up.

They're actually significantly different motors.  The CLRVs have monomotor trucks and only two motors per car which was a big fad in the late 1970s.  The Boeings were built the same way and had a lot of equipment from Garrett as well.  So, the CLRV motor is a larger machine with a greater horespower rating on it and the drive shaft carries through both ends of the rotor and out both ends of the motor so it can drive a gear box at each end and couple the single motor in the truck to both axles.  The H5 motor was a more traditional traction motor with the drive shaft on the rotor exiting at one end, driving one gearbox and one axle only and had a lower HP rating which I mentioned in my other post was more than made up for by having for motors per car instead of two.  Otherwise, they do have similarities.  Both were made by Garrett, both were 300 V machines, both had separately excited fields rather than your classic series DC traction motor which is how they got the energy efficiency and electric braking almost to a standstill out of direct current motors that normally wasn't possible with DC machines.

Right. That was what it was all about. Alan Gryfe wanted to run the website but him being "blacklisted" by the executive branch of the TTS (😂) caused a lot of conflict. Never mind again that this guy was one of the first members. Was he like the TTS equivalent of David Ruffin or Eddie King Jr. from the movie the Five Heartbeats? 😂 I remember the original website but there's no need for a nostalgia trip on that one since the damn thing hasn't evolved since then. Is it still HTML? LOL To be honest, I had no idea that there was more than one kid hired as "interns" for GPS video. As I said, suspect as fuck. A bunch of teens going over to a middle aged man's house to work with VCRs? My mother and the mother of one of my transit friends at the time were a couple that did go ballistic.

The fact that the idea of a TTS Youth (😂) was raised told me back then that there was some rift between the old farts and those of us who were teens and in our early 20s at the time. And LOL! I remember the first newsletter with "Living Colour". I think it was the January 2000 issue. Sorry, the January 20000 issue as there was a misprint. 5 figures and they couldn't afford to hire someone to proofread? LOL. It didn't help that the old farts wanted to veto every charter that would appeal to the younger fellows. Thank god there was the OTA at the time which was a charter group with mostly younger people. And those charters were cheap. Never more than $20 bucks.

Ugh. I am seriously weighing the benefits of going to the CLRV last run. Now that I hear the TTC is holding some kind of weird lottery to ride the last car, we may be faced with a horde of disgruntled foamers who are likely to come back wielding switch irons and tiki torches chanting "you will not replace us!".

LOL@ Pocket Rocket by the way. Nice one. I think it was pretty dumb to waste TRs on that little shuttle line. By that's just my opinion. I also don't understand why the TTC wasted money putting destination signs on the side of the cars. This isn't NYC where multiple lines share the same track. Am I really going to stand there for 10 seconds while the display scrolls by to reveal it's going to terminate at the same place it has for the past 40 years? Something tells me that that, the numbering of the subway routes and etc were all done to appeal to movie production houses when they need a cheaper "NYC Subway" to shoot.

Oh ok, thanks for the info on the Garrett motors. I always found it strange they shared similar equipment but sounded completely different.

I'll be honest. I always liked the T1s and when they came in I thought they shared a lot of similarities with the Gloucesters they "spiritually" replaced. Aside from the fleet numbers, like the G's they have less rounded windows, they re-introduced those metal hangers, the rollsign font was closer to the TTC Subway font, etc. I like them more than the H6s that's for sure. They have a clean, tidy appearance and that's what I like. I was literally in kindergarten the last time I remember riding the Gloucesters but even at that age and having not really ridden the subway that often, the seeds of foam were already planted and I preferred those cars to the others. H1s at that time were like riding the T1s today. Considered booooring. Plus back then they used to mix up the classes so you never knew what you were going to get. Don't like the H5s you're on, walk tot he middle car which is an H1. Door chimes I don't care about. I don't like them and I still miss the two whistles. Even though you couldn't even hear them on cars with the fans going.

 

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