smallspy Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 The silly thing is, the whole bickering over whether it will cost an exta 500 million or a billion to go with a subway option is pointless because the city isn't bringing the minimum 500 million to the table in the first place. But that's it - it's not just $500mil. The TTC's own reports were wrong (or worse, misleading). You don't need to build a yard on the SRT as there is already one being built for it on Sheppard East, just like the subway will be served from the existing Greenwood Yard. Until someone in the media realizes this and points this out to the councillors, we're going to continue having this silly discussion. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williampaul Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 But that's it - it's not just $500mil. The TTC's own reports were wrong (or worse, misleading). You don't need to build a yard on the SRT as there is already one being built for it on Sheppard East, just like the subway will be served from the existing Greenwood Yard. Until someone in the media realizes this and points this out to the councillors, we're going to continue having this silly discussion. Dan I think the 'seed' was planted way back in the 50's. From old reports and meetings Scarboro always had the most together briefs, requests for service and so on. Even back then they were pleading that the 'city' got new bus routes, why can't they?. The TTC had to respond that to put a bus on Warden would cost $50,000 and be used by 50 people! Scarboro whined so loudly that the TTC published a 5-year report - JUly 1954 to July 1959 showing all of the bus route improvements were made, and that absolutely none of these even came close to breaking even In the 60's with Warden Station, still it was not good enough because it did not penetrate far enough into Scarboro Then came the late 70's/early 80's and Scarboro was infuriated that they were going to get a 'streetcar' line up to the STC. I recall reading tons of newspaper articles about I think the Reeve, Gus Harris was just pissed that his borough did not rate a full subway and how dare they attempt to pawn off a silly streetcar line to the Centre I believe that is one of the main reasons the Province stepped in with their fab new RT technology, building on Scarboro's paranoia, they promised something better than a streetcar, not a subway but way better then a streetcar. I think the 'poor-old-us' mentality remains to this day. Also, yet again, the TTC seems to be it's own worst enemy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyfirenet Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 But that's it - it's not just $500mil. The TTC's own reports were wrong (or worse, misleading). You don't need to build a yard on the SRT as there is already one being built for it on Sheppard East, just like the subway will be served from the existing Greenwood Yard. I know. But those councillors from Scarborough would be getting a lot further with their push for a subway if they showed up at the table with 500 million and asked if it was enough rather than saying "We have no money or interest in raising it. How much more does this subway cost?" That's why arguing over the cost is silly because the city hasn't even commited one dollar at this point and they are risking losing all the money dedicated for the RT conversion & extension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyfirenet Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 Less crazy, but Joe Pennachetti has been hotboxing with Ford if he expects any more from the province. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2044 Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 Did they not already reject every proposed way to fund a subway just under two months ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyfirenet Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 Did they not already reject every proposed way to fund a subway just under two months ago? Well, it took some time for Ford's subway shovel garden to start sprouting money trees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bus_Medic Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 I'm still waiting for my hot dog tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stench Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 scarborough is getting the subway according the globe and mail. oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VivaLa1517 Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 scarborough is getting the subway according the globe and mail. oh well. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ontario-toronto-close-in-on-deal-to-build-scarborough-subway-scrap-lrt/article13132509/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttcgeek Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 scarborough is getting the subway according the globe and mail. oh well. That's to be determined by Queen's Park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stench Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 That's to be determined by Queen's Park. http://www.theglobea...rticle13132509/ Thanks. Wynne will cave. Ford will get re elected. dammit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Posted July 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 Dont we already have LRT Cars on order for this project? Do we have enough T1's on the Bloor line with the extension? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfitz Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 Dont we already have LRT Cars on order for this project?Yes. However TTC is talking about a change order on the original Legacy LRV order to add 60 cars. The SRT cars are also a change order on the original Legacy LRV order. Bombardier would also be the likely vendor for additional TR cars to handle the Danforth extension. Seems to me there's a lot of room for negotiation of this.Do we have enough T1's on the Bloor line with the extension? No, I don't think they do. Not by the 2020s when this would open. If you check the Subway fleet chart Steve Munro put together, there isn't any extra T1 capacity by the 2020s - Subway Fleet Plan 2012.10 In fact, if ridership grows as forecast, by 2020 there will only be 2 extra trains, and by 2025 they'll already be short of T1s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyfirenet Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 Thanks. Wynne will cave. Ford will get re elected. dammit. That all depends on what quid pro quo agreement the province comes up with. If a subway for Scarborough is contingent on council voting in favour of all proposed transit revenue tools, you can figure out the likelihood that the RT conversion will continue as planned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williampaul Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 That all depends on what quid pro quo agreement the province comes up with. If a subway for Scarborough is contingent on council voting in favour of all proposed transit revenue tools, you can figure out the likelihood that the RT conversion will continue as planned. rev tools? for starters drop the silly little FinchWest rt. Finch West will get brand new strait to downtown subway in year or two. Betcha 80% riders will jump on this to get downtown. Wynne will cave...Ford will win re-election too. So far none of the potential candidates, or really the current ones have found an answer to 'us vs them'. Regardless of what is said, there is still a huge 'poor forgotten' suburbs versus 'elite, we-get-everything' downtowners. real or not, the truth does not matter It's all how it is perceived, and it is still perceived suburb vs downtowners. Ford will get the hugew suburban vote no matter who the other candidate is. sooner or later Wynne, being as how she was 'queened', will HAVE to go the the public and get elected.... When she loses, there is still plenty of time for new governments to see the light and change things up..plenty of time! also these guys like Munro who read out numbers all the time and go ape-sht whenever anybody has an opinion they do not like, I wonder if they actually go out ot these places and see for themselves? My kid goes to UTSC and I meet him out there for lunch couple days week. This place is well-served by transit from Kennedy (exp buses) and STC and GO etc What century doesUTSC need an LRT OR a subway? Buses are doing just fine, I would think for at least the next 30-40 years. Even better now they have built the new bus loop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyfirenet Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 rev tools? for starters drop the silly little FinchWest rt. Finch West will get brand new strait to downtown subway in year or two. Betcha 80% riders will jump on this to get downtown. Nice to know that a transit line that is over 23km long can be replaced with one subway station at one end on a subway line that doesn't even follow the street in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAverageJoe Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 That's to be determined by Queen's Park. Bingo as it is now it will be LRT or the city pays the difference for subway upgrade if that ever happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williampaul Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 Nice to know that a transit line that is over 23km long can be replaced with one subway station at one end on a subway line that doesn't even follow the street in question. ah..Finch West from wherever to Keele is over 23kms long? really. if we are to be saddled with it it will stop at Keele..never be built to Yonge) as for RT let's face, any traffic at all is bus traffic..nobody really walks to Kenedy for anything, LawEast drops from buses only, Ellesmere,Midland,McCowan..nothing to speak of as for Eg line, as the TTC rightly deduced and is keeping separate..virtually no one will transfer from new LRT or subway to go along eglinton west to yonge? nobody now goes all the way from Ken to Yonge and Eg on 34. Ride it and you'll see. from Ken Stn full bus, lots exit at Kennedy as Kennedy is very pedestrian unfriendly, next 2 stops see action, lot off at Birch..all the 'industry stops' west from Birch to Pharmacy are ALL well used in RH (something both LRT and subway have yet to address), VP busy, Bermondsey busy, Don Mills busy transfer node..from Don MIlls people go to Yone. From VP, people would be silly to take 34, 10min down to sub and 20min you are at Yonge where did you get the 23kms figure anyway? oh, and yes, ONE subway station to STC is well worth it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyfirenet Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 where did you get the 23kms figure anyway? My mistake. The 23km is the full Humber to Yonge plan. The first phase is only 11km. as for RT let's face, any traffic at all is bus traffic..nobody really walks to Kenedy for anything, LawEast drops from buses only, Ellesmere,Midland,McCowan..nothing to speak of So we're spending an extra billion to eliminate a few stairs and a few dozen metres of walking while decreasing transit accessibility in Scarborough and doing nothing to convince people to choose transit over driving. Good to know that we're getting so much value. Oh, and about you stance that Etobicoke should be sacrificed for the sake of Scarborough, Ford has no problem with raising taxes for a Scarborough subway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williampaul Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 My mistake. The 23km is the full Humber to Yonge plan. The first phase is only 11km. So we're spending an extra billion to eliminate a few stairs and a few dozen metres of walking while decreasing transit accessibility in Scarborough and doing nothing to convince people to choose transit over driving. Good to know that we're getting so much value. Oh, and about you stance that Etobicoke should be sacrificed for the sake of Scarborough, Ford has no problem with raising taxes for a Scarborough subway. oh come on, you usually have some decent points but "doing nothing to convince people to choose transit over driving"? attempting to lure people out of cars is that whole point here? is this what we are doing? Is this why we are spending all this 'gift' money? no, what we are doing is making transit better for the existing riders Not even full subways will get people out of their cars... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyfirenet Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 no, what we are doing is making transit better for the existing riders And how were you expecting to cover the difference in operating costs if you were not doing it through increased ridership? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williampaul Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 And how were you expecting to cover the difference in operating costs if you were not doing it through increased ridership? my god you sound like munro...money money money money money LRT LRT LRT almighty NEtwork Network Network get over it man......... of course we hope for more riders BUT that is not the reason we are using our free gift this way................. I knew William Kilbourne, Andrew Bielmiller, Chris Prentice, Mike Filey, Howard Levine and Greg Gormick (there were others) from th eold day Streetcars fro Toronto and they did not want to retain streetcars fro economical reasons. To hear them speak it was pure nostalgia. Munro likes to think he had the lead and it was all $$$$'s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed T. Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 of course we hope for more riders BUT that is not the reason we are using our free gift this way................. Yeah, lets use our "free gift" for smokes, lotto tickets, and crack cocaine. You may not agree with Steve Munro but at least he writes in actual sentences with research behind them. You don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyfirenet Posted July 14, 2013 Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 of course we hope for more riders BUT that is not the reason we are using our free gift this way................. Tax money paid toward provincial government + tax money paid towards federal government + property tax hike = free gift. ... I would love to live in your world for about ten minutes. I don't think I'd get anything done, but I probably wouldn't care that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williampaul Posted July 14, 2013 Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 Yeah, lets use our "free gift" for smokes, lotto tickets, and crack cocaine. You may not agree with Steve Munro but at least he writes in actual sentences with research behind them. You don't. oh please Ed, what do you care anyway? I think you live around Long Branch so you will never ride whatever is built way up there anyway also we never mentioned Ford but you are certainly showing your bias by jumping in with the crack etc etc.. Pretty cheap shot Ed. sentences? print is dead! Besides , us surburban guys do not know how to speak in proper sentences. It's you elite downtowners that have all the brains. Yes, it's a free gift as the Province decided to 'give us' a pile of money. "we' , council turned down the offer to invest side by side, so because we chose to invest 0 dollars "we" lost the ability to have any influence Guy who pays the entire amount gets complete say....... I think Munro is clouded by his zeal for an LRT network, which as I've already said, from hearing other members of SfT speak, this was not ever a concern of his until recently. I also do not buy into all of his 'research" Trouble is, all parties are skewing the numbers because all of the parties have their own agenda From what I hear, correct me if I'm wrong please. Steve is a hardball lobbyist down at City Hall with the Councillors. Mary MM told me Steve did the original pitch to her trumpeting the virtues of LRT without specifying cost and without describing any other alternative. Good on him, whatever keeps him occupied but by reading his blog he sure throws a tantrum every time anybody offers an opinion he thinks is garbage, again it's his blog, doesn't have to be true, it's the internet after all and he can do spew what he likes........ as Mark Towhey tweeted today: "How will you pay?" is only ever asked by people who oppose the concept. No one ever asked how LRT will be paid" Tax money paid toward provincial government + tax money paid towards federal government + property tax hike = free gift. ... I would love to live in your world for about ten minutes. I don't think I'd get anything done, but I probably wouldn't care that much. Well my world has done pretty good over the last 50+ years. It's been a great ride. Actually cannot wait to ride the new subway to STC. yes, of course all money comes from us, however, name me the last time a Fed or Prov Gov handed us this much money for transit? we lose control, we pay it off for decades, whatever the formula is we will all pay through the nose but when did anyone offer us this before? And yes he who giveth, taketh away... Good old Dalton, in the name of pushing the spending beyond the next election cycle and also to look better on the provincial books decided to delay spending for years and years down the road. Nice guy! BTW serious question here.... No Provincial money has started to flow yet, so, how is Eglinton being paid for at the moment? Who's paying (probably Province) but how are they paying? Are they borrowing until the grant $$ start flowing? anybody know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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