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Finch West LRT


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On 9/28/2016 at 11:58 PM, drum118 said:

Did you check Siemens backlog to see if Metrolinx order can be handle??

They just got a contract for 122 car for Seattle, with delivery starting 2019; have an order between 175-250 depending on funding for SF starting in 2017.

If Metrolinx is going out for a true tender, you have Alston, CAF, CNR, Siemens and at least 4 other supplier to obtain bid from. Will Mississauga and Hamilton Cars be part of this bid or will they come out later??? 

All the builders pretty much are backlog for the next few years.

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2 hours ago, TheAverageJoe said:

All the builders pretty much are backlog for the next few years.

I know Siemens in NA is book, but they may find space if they want a foot in Ontario. Can't say where others are since I haven't follow them nor the plant size. It doesn't stop bidders from bring in complete cars off shore, since there is no restriction preventing them now.

Kansas City needs 2 more cars since ridership has out strip what they have now and a year of schedule considering the line only open in May this year. Those cars could show up in 2019 if money can be found for them.

I wasn't expecting to see cars from anyone until 2019, depending when tenders go out and close.

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1 hour ago, drum118 said:

I know Siemens in NA is book, but they may find space if they want a foot in Ontario. Can't say where others are since I haven't follow them nor the plant size. It doesn't stop bidders from bring in complete cars off shore, since there is no restriction preventing them now.

Kansas City needs 2 more cars since ridership has out strip what they have now and a year of schedule considering the line only open in May this year. Those cars could show up in 2019 if money can be found for them.

I wasn't expecting to see cars from anyone until 2019, depending when tenders go out and close.

Metrolinx just need the cars by late 2020 or early 2021 to burn them in. ~23 of them should take too long to built. Hmmmm nevermind, Bombardier took how long?

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  • 2 years later...
3 hours ago, dowlingm said:

Oh my .... "CBC News has learned that one light rail vehicle got stuck between Hurdman and Lees stations for two days because of the snow, and had to be towed to the maintenance and storage facility ... he Alstom vehicles have had trouble operating in just a few centimetres of snow ... Only 14 of 34 trains are ready. Ten haven't had their communications systems installed"

LOL - perhaps they should have gone with Bombardier ...

I guess the ultimate test is when we have both vehicles running here in Toronto on Line 5 and Line 6 in the same weather conditions. We'll see which ones have the biggest issues ...

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3 minutes ago, nfitz said:

Oh my .... "CBC News has learned that one light rail vehicle got stuck between Hurdman and Lees stations for two days because of the snow, and had to be towed to the maintenance and storage facility ... he Alstom vehicles have had trouble operating in just a few centimetres of snow ... Only 14 of 34 trains are ready. Ten haven't had their communications systems installed"

LOL - perhaps they should have gone with Bombardier ...

I guess the ultimate test is when we have both vehicles running here in Toronto on Line 5 and Line 6 in the same weather conditions. We'll see which ones have the biggest issues ...

You don't need to wait that long. Waterloo VS Ottawa is already a much faster comparison.

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1 hour ago, ttc rider said:

Sorry I have not followed this subject closely: is this line actually being built? With the current administration at Queens Park, and considering the ridings the line goes through, it would be a miracle if this project proceeds. Cancellation seems a far more likely outcome to me.

Yes, it's proceeding. Construction efforts have started.

After 8 months of the current government, seems pretty safe. They cancelled various projects quickly. I'd guess there was a massive poison pill in this one, that made cancelling unthinkable.

Should open as Line 6 in 2023.

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3 hours ago, ttc rider said:

Sorry I have not followed this subject closely: is this line actually being built? With the current administration at Queens Park, and considering the ridings the line goes through, it would be a miracle if this project proceeds. Cancellation seems a far more likely outcome to me.

The cancellation fee would be in the range of 30-40% of the project now. The majority of community supports the project so it will be strange to see DoFo cancel the project without a replacement and screw over the people that voted for him. If they wanted to cancel the project, they would have to ML to put all pre-construction on hold months ago.

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19 hours ago, nfitz said:

I don't see how Ottawa and Waterloo have the same weather conditions!

Then how is Toronto and Ottawa a good comparison? The point is that the cars will be in service far sooner in Waterloo than they will be in Toronto.


Dan

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9 minutes ago, smallspy said:

Then how is Toronto and Ottawa a good comparison? The point is that the cars will be in service far sooner in Waterloo than they will be in Toronto.

I just read up to confirm ... I said Line 5 and Line 6 as an ultimate test in terms of comparing how the cars cope with the weather... meaning the Flexity cars on Eglinton.

Yes Waterloo is sooner ... but less similar weather-wise on a given day than the two sides of Toronto.

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3 hours ago, nfitz said:

Yes Waterloo is sooner ... but less similar weather-wise on a given day than the two sides of Toronto.

I disagree. Waterloo gets about as much snow as Toronto does - maybe slightly more - and the temperatures are usually within a couple of degrees of Toronto.

 

As of 12.50pm, it is 4C in Toronto, and 1C in Waterloo. In both cities there is no precipitation - cloudy, with the odd sunny break.


Dan

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4 hours ago, smallspy said:

I disagree. Waterloo gets about as much snow as Toronto does - maybe slightly more - and the temperatures are usually within a couple of degrees of Toronto.

Waterloo is quite similar. I was talking about comparing Alstom to Bombardier performance in snow.  Waterloo would compare well to Finch West once Finch West opens.

It's Waterloo to Ottawa I meant didn't compare well ... but that ultimately (winter 2024?) we'd be able to just compare Eglinton and Finch West. (but Finch West and Waterloo works just as fine ... though presumably with TTC operating both Finch and Eglinton, they'll be less other variables ...)

 

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15 hours ago, nfitz said:

It's Waterloo to Ottawa I meant didn't compare well ...

Ahhhhhhhhh. Well yes. I completely agree with you on that. Of all of the LRT systems being built in Ontario, I think it's safe to say that Ottawa's will have to deal with the harshest conditions.

 

Dan

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10 hours ago, smallspy said:

Ahhhhhhhhh. Well yes. I completely agree with you on that. Of all of the LRT systems being built in Ontario, I think it's safe to say that Ottawa's will have to deal with the harshest conditions.

In terms of snow accumulation and cold temperatures, certainly! In terms of ice storms ... I'd guess that too ... but I'm not as sure about the relative frequencies ... I actually think I've seen more frequent ice storms in Toronto than when I lived in Montreal. (obviously nothing comes close to the massive one they had in the 1990s ... and I saw one in 1983 that was worse than anything I've seen in Toronto ... but I seem to keep seeing smaller ones more frequently here, that mess up the streetcars. But that's completely ancedotal ...

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14 hours ago, nfitz said:

In terms of snow accumulation and cold temperatures, certainly! In terms of ice storms ... I'd guess that too ... but I'm not as sure about the relative frequencies ... I actually think I've seen more frequent ice storms in Toronto than when I lived in Montreal. (obviously nothing comes close to the massive one they had in the 1990s ... and I saw one in 1983 that was worse than anything I've seen in Toronto ... but I seem to keep seeing smaller ones more frequently here, that mess up the streetcars. But that's completely ancedotal ...

The thing is that at the end of the day, an ice storm isn't likely to cause a huge problem on either Ottawa's Confederation Line or the Eglinton Crosstown. By using 2 car trains for service, the first car will be clearing the way for the second car to have clean contact with the overhead. Performance may be degraded compared to normal operation, but not hugely so. (And then there's the question about frequencies - if frequencies are high enough at all hours of operation, it may be even less of an issue.)

 

Waterloo is operating single cars, much like the legacy network, and at lower frequencies for much of the time. Ice build-up will absolutely have a huge effect on the running of the network, and so they will likely have to develop all sorts of mitigation techniques to overcome it.

 

Dan

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Ah, that's interesting. Waterloo in particular isn't planning for very frequent services. It's only every 7.5 minutes at the peak of rush hour, which is far less frequent than I've seen causing big streetcar problems here. Most of the day however is only 10 to 15 minutes. Unlike Ottawa and Toronto, I don't think they even have enough cars to temporarily put out high frequency service during storms.

I guess Finch then will be at a disadvantage with the plans there for single-car operation. Eglinton will always be at least in pairs, if not triples.

 

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5 hours ago, nfitz said:

I guess Finch then will be at a disadvantage with the plans there for single-car operation. Eglinton will always be at least in pairs, if not triples.
 

Not necessarily. Double-ended cars could in principle be fitted with one pantograph at each end. In icy conditions, both pantographs can be raised and used to draw power simultaneously, which reduces the total electrical resistance at the pantograph-catenary interface. This is the same principle used with double-ended electric locomotives in 'ice mode' operation, as well as on some European LRT/streetcar systems with double-ended cars in wintertime.

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3 hours ago, ttc rider said:

Not necessarily. Double-ended cars could in principle be fitted with one pantograph at each end. In icy conditions, both pantographs can be raised and used to draw power simultaneously, which reduces the total electrical resistance at the pantograph-catenary interface.

I suppose they could.

I find it highly unlikely that it has crossed Metrolinx's mind to spec this, given how clearly they are totally out of their depth on the ordering of the LRVs.

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On 2/23/2019 at 10:31 PM, ttc rider said:

Not necessarily. Double-ended cars could in principle be fitted with one pantograph at each end. In icy conditions, both pantographs can be raised and used to draw power simultaneously, which reduces the total electrical resistance at the pantograph-catenary interface. This is the same principle used with double-ended electric locomotives in 'ice mode' operation, as well as on some European LRT/streetcar systems with double-ended cars in wintertime.

That is correct in theory, but it is very, very unusual for an LRT to have more than one pantograph. And Ottawa's, which the Finch West cars are based on, certainly do not have 2 installed.


Dan

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2 hours ago, smallspy said:

That is correct in theory, but it is very, very unusual for an LRT to have more than one pantograph. And Ottawa's, which the Finch West cars are based on, certainly do not have 2 installed.


Dan

Pittsburgh used to put two pantographs on some of the PCCs and they had a sign in the driver area saying "This car is sleet cutter equipped" for that reason.  PAT 4004 clearly shows this.  Baltimore's LRT also has two pantographs on each car.  The big gotcha with two pantographs or two poles if they're both electrically connected to a common buss is to not bridge section insulators with them.

It's kind of strange that none of the LRT cars for the lines in Ontario have snow cutters of some sort provided for unless it hasn't come up yet since none of these lines are in operation yet.

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1 hour ago, Wayside Observer said:

Pittsburgh used to put two pantographs on some of the PCCs and they had a sign in the driver area saying "This car is sleet cutter equipped" for that reason.  PAT 4004 clearly shows this.  Baltimore's LRT also has two pantographs on each car.  The big gotcha with two pantographs or two poles if they're both electrically connected to a common buss is to not bridge section insulators with them.

It's kind of strange that none of the LRT cars for the lines in Ontario have snow cutters of some sort provided for unless it hasn't come up yet since none of these lines are in operation yet.

The reason why I used the word "unusual" and not a stronger term was specifically because I was thinking of the Pittsburg PCCs when I wrote it. On heavy railways, it's not unusual to use the use of an additional pantograph to clear the overhead, but it's far less common on light railways.

 

As for the Baltimore's ABB units, if they were built with two pantographs than they've lost one at some point in their lives, because they certainly only operate with one today.

 

But yes, I agree about lack of ice clearing devices. Especially since Toronto has had electrified streetcars since 1892, so it's not like this is some sort of foreign concept.


Dan

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  • 2 weeks later...

Given the announcement of the new Hwy 27-Woodbine GO station would a second phase of the Finch LRT to the Pearson Transit hub be better off connecting here on the way from Humber College?  The alternative would be to run along Rexdale/Derry to Airport Rd bypassing the GO station (in favour of connecting at Malton GO), but likely being better able to serve the redeveloped site along Rexdale.  Depending on the approach to the Pearson hub it could go through the redeveloped site as well.

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