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Finch West LRT

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A couple of Open Houses will be hosted for the Finch West LRT public consultation

(Dates provided by the City of Toronto)

Wednesday, August 6, 2008

6:30pm to 9:00pm

Jane-Finch Mall

1911 Finch Avenue West

(SE corner of Finch Ave and Jane St)

Thursday, August 7, 2008

6:30pm to 9:00pm

Elmbank Community Centre

10 Rampart Rd

(off Martingrove Rd, south of Finch Ave)

http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/et...w_lrt/index.htm

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The TTC actually picked accessible locations..

Wow...

The Finch LRT will benefit Jane-Finch hugely, even though I am worried the area might be gentrified because of excellent transit accesibilty.

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The TTC actually picked accessible locations..

Wow...

The Finch LRT will benefit Jane-Finch hugely, even though I am worried the area might be gentrified because of excellent transit accesibilty.

A bit of gentrification might be good. It might help fight the perceptions that Jane-Finch is a high crime area. But, you are right. There is a possibility that more people wanting to move into the area will cause rents to go up.

Based on the open house, the LRT might actually leave the roadway and stop on Humber College property. This might give us an opportunity for a proper regional terminal.

A few discussion questions for all of you:

What does everyone think of future extensions? One possibility is going south on 27 towards Woodbine Centre (which really needs something to revive it), Woodbine Racetrack (which is undergoing massive expansion soon) and Pearson Airport. The other possibility is to go West towards Westwood Mall in Malton. Any thoughts? Keep in mind that both are possible.

Also, 39 FINCH EAST is a very busy bus route, but some say that it's a bus route that works fine just the way it is. Should there be a eastward extension of this line? Seneca College at Don Mills would benefit, but how much further should we go (if at all)?

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I think it's just the name that does it to Jane Finch. I don't at all feel any less safe than I do anywhere else.

What does everyone think of future extensions? One possibility is going south on 27 towards Woodbine Centre (which really needs something to revive it), Woodbine Racetrack (which is undergoing massive expansion soon) and Pearson Airport. The other possibility is to go West towards Westwood Mall in Malton. Any thoughts? Keep in mind that both are possible.

Both Humber College and Westwood Mall are current hubs, I would say. Both also bring the line closer to the eventual link to the airport, howver the link to Westwood would likely help that area in the same way as Jane Finch.

Also, 39 FINCH EAST is a very busy bus route, but some say that it's a bus route that works fine just the way it is. Should there be a eastward extension of this line? Seneca College at Don Mills would benefit, but how much further should we go (if at all)?

Connection to Don Mills would help drastically with traffic as well as continuity. Not only is Seneca College a big draw, but it would also allow for transfer of passengers and streetcars between the lines.

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Also, 39 FINCH EAST is a very busy bus route, but some say that it's a bus route that works fine just the way it is. Should there be a eastward extension of this line? Seneca College at Don Mills would benefit, but how much further should we go (if at all)?

39 is an extremely busy bus route, and IMO if the Sheppard subway did not exist then the LRT line would go on Finch East and not Sheppard. But since we have the subway along Sheppard already in operation, it literally forces the LRT to go on Sheppard since we have to use it. Besides, what would the embarrassment be if we built a new Rapid Transit line right beside a currently existing one?

If Transit City turns out to be successful, there could be a second phase of LRT lines where Finch East gets its own line. This could connect to Malvern Town Centre and the Scarborough/Malvern LRT.

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A bit of gentrification might be good. It might help fight the perceptions that Jane-Finch is a high crime area. But, you are right. There is a possibility that more people wanting to move into the area will cause rents to go up.

Right. And that's a bad thing? :D It's not only Jane-Finch, let's not forget Wrecks(Rex)dale as well. It can use all the help it can get,... transit and otherwise. :wacko:

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I looked at the proposed stop location and found it peculiar that there is no stop at Senlac/Grantbrook which would provide a convenient transfer to route 98. Instead of a stop at Edithvale, I would put stops at Talbot and Senlac/Grantbrook (eastbound stop east of Senlac, westbound stop west of Grantbrook).

The lights at Grantbrook/Senlac could be organized in 4 phases: First phase left turns from Finch to Grantbrook and from Finch to Senlac, then straight through on Finch, then green for Grantbrook, and finally green for Senlac. There will be a redevelopment at Grantbrook/Finch because the little plaza at the corner has been sold and most likely a condo development will be built there.

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I'm kind of impressed with the station spacing, especially between Yonge and Bathurst, where I figured that 3 stations would be located between the major streets (Finchurst, Senlac, Talbot).

There are many options that I am not the biggest fan of, like the distance between the LRT station and Humber College, the thought of not having the station at Yonge underground (Should be, otherwise you're really asking for trouble). Same goes with Keele, because then you're dealing with transfers and such. Mind you, nothing is set in stone, and I'd hate to see this done on the cheap too. If you're going to do it, do it right. The lines will be busy enough to justify a "subway-esque" station at these points ... just imagine all the surface-subway transfering (and wasted paper) at Yonge? Or even at Keele? We may need those new fangled scramble intersections just to deal with the hoards of people!

Now, my biggest issues (which I hope to bring up at the next meeting if I can make it) ...

- Reduce the amount of lane shifts and tweaks. Make them as straight (and wide) as possible (unlike St. Clair). You're dealing with large transports here that service the oil facilities near Keele and Chesswood. Make the traffic lanes arrow straight, and increase the buffer distance between the LRT tracks and the roadways. That way, you get the chance to plant trees between teh tracks and the roads, no worries about vehicles getting too close to the trams, and the truckers will thank you (and the snowplow operators will likely too when that time comes).

- Night service ... what provides it? Trams or buses? Trams should, but then you introduce security issues with regards to any potential underground stations. Buses provide the seamless connection. But then, do they run on the road, or in the ROW?

- Connections with Brampton and Mississauga Transit? I know you can do it at the proposed station at Humber Coll. Blvd., but on top of that, there is a lot of busy industries with large workforces NW of Finch/27 ... don't forget about them (and potentially force another transfer). This "rough" plan sort of does ... cause that'd be a fair walk to either of those stations.

As for the future extensions, I say that it could be justified to split Finch West into 2 Branches ... the "A" to Woodbine Centre and "B" Westwood Mall (not sure if the 500-series numbering trend will continue ... although 535, 536, 525 ... they've all got nice rings too them ... But not 585, just build the 4!) ... Have the lines split at Hwy 27, sending one south to Woodbine, and one west to Westwood Mall. I think that service levels beyond the split don't warrant the full service the rest of the line gets, and by doing this, you go on both sides of Humber College ... payback for not permitting a regional transit terminal to be built on its property (where I think the line should properly end). Plus it allows people going there to still take either branch, as the walking distance isn't that much off.

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A couple of Open Houses will be hosted for the Finch West LRT public consultation

(Dates provided by the City of Toronto)

Wednesday, August 6, 2008

6:30pm to 9:00pm

Jane-Finch Mall

1911 Finch Avenue West

(SE corner of Finch Ave and Jane St)

Thursday, August 7, 2008

6:30pm to 9:00pm

Elmbank Community Centre

10 Rampart Rd

(off Martingrove Rd, south of Finch Ave)

http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/et...w_lrt/index.htm

I'm going to try to get to the one @ Jane/Finch Mall.

sounds intresting.....

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A bit of gentrification might be good. It might help fight the perceptions that Jane-Finch is a high crime area. But, you are right. There is a possibility that more people wanting to move into the area will cause rents to go up.

Based on the open house, the LRT might actually leave the roadway and stop on Humber College property. This might give us an opportunity for a proper regional terminal.

A few discussion questions for all of you:

What does everyone think of future extensions? One possibility is going south on 27 towards Woodbine Centre (which really needs something to revive it), Woodbine Racetrack (which is undergoing massive expansion soon) and Pearson Airport. The other possibility is to go West towards Westwood Mall in Malton. Any thoughts? Keep in mind that both are possible.

I'm all for it. High-5! (Slap of hands together)

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I wonder if the thinking behind one option, a surface stop at Yonge north of Finch, is that it would be extended up Yonge as an interim LRT prior to the subway going up into 905? Otherwise I can see no reason to do that other than to annoy folks who want to see it continue on Finch East, over or underground.

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A little update:

Enhanced bus service will be deployed on Finch West to Humber College and that Ford believes he can build a subway along Finch in 10 years time. It makes you wonder what enhanced bus service entails given a lack of funding.

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Enhanced bus service means there will just be a 36E, but to add such a branch requires more buses, since you can't remove buses operating the 36 and make it 36E, because you are stressing more of the local bus service, but additional bus frequency will just make the problem worse, since a 36E will require more buses, which puts more strains on to the roads, and that leads for longer backups, and as we all know it, even longer convoys, 6-8 buses probably?

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Enhanced bus service means there will just be a 36E, but to add such a branch requires more buses, since you can't remove buses operating the 36 and make it 36E, because you are stressing more of the local bus service, but additional bus frequency will just make the problem worse, since a 36E will require more buses, which puts more strains on to the roads, and that leads for longer backups, and as we all know it, even longer convoys, 6-8 buses probably?

They toyed around the idea of a 36E before, but that was shafted as it would cause a net inconvenience.

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At present, no branch of the 36 serves Downsview which forces a change on passengers wishing to use that route downtown. How will TTC reconfigure once the subway station on Finch is opened?

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At present, no branch of the 36 serves Downsview which forces a change on passengers wishing to use that route downtown. How will TTC reconfigure once the subway station on Finch is opened?

The 36 Finch West should be looping through the station in both directions. I don't know exactly what Downsview has to do with your question... Finch West passengers currently ride to Finch or transfer to a number of routes going into Downsview (108, 106, 107, 105, 196). I doubt many of them do this however; only half of trains during AM rush operate to Downsview, while all of them go to Finch.

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At present, no branch of the 36 serves Downsview which forces a change on passengers wishing to use that route downtown. How will TTC reconfigure once the subway station on Finch is opened?

At the meeting at the beginning of March the TTC announced that due to the delay (and now cancellation) of the Finch West LRT, they have to spend an extra $1.5 Million on the Spadina subway extension. That extra money is going to adding in two extra bus bays and the reconfiguration of various aspects of the planned bus terminal Finch West Station to accommodate buses on the 36 serving the station.

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I don't know exactly what Downsview has to do with your question... Finch West passengers currently ride to Finch or transfer to a number of routes going into Downsview (108, 106, 107, 105, 196). I doubt many of them do this however; only half of trains during AM rush operate to Downsview, while all of them go to Finch.
It's hardly surprising that passengers coming from west of Jane might choose to stay on the bus to Yonge rather than transfer to another bus which brings them to Downsview for a less frequent service. However, my point was that if a Downsview service which operated along "West Finch West" came directly to Downsview then the removal of a transfer might encourage some people to wait for the subway there rather than at Yonge-Finch and proceed down that overstretched service. When the new station further north opened that service could then terminate there rather than Downsview in parallel with the looping 36, similar to the way 52/58 operate at Lawrence West.

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It's hardly surprising that passengers coming from west of Jane might choose to stay on the bus to Yonge rather than transfer to another bus which brings them to Downsview for a less frequent service. However, my point was that if a Downsview service which operated along "West Finch West" came directly to Downsview then the removal of a transfer might encourage some people to wait for the subway there rather than at Yonge-Finch and proceed down that overstretched service. When the new station further north opened that service could then terminate there rather than Downsview in parallel with the looping 36, similar to the way 52/58 operate at Lawrence West.

The routing you speak of exsited at one point, it was called the 118 Finch via Allen (Humberline to Wilson Station). It was cut in 1996 with all the other major cuts made that year, just 6 weeks before Downsview Station opened.

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It's hardly surprising that passengers coming from west of Jane might choose to stay on the bus to Yonge rather than transfer to another bus which brings them to Downsview for a less frequent service. However, my point was that if a Downsview service which operated along "West Finch West" came directly to Downsview then the removal of a transfer might encourage some people to wait for the subway there rather than at Yonge-Finch and proceed down that overstretched service. When the new station further north opened that service could then terminate there rather than Downsview in parallel with the looping 36, similar to the way 52/58 operate at Lawrence West.

When the Spadina subway opened to Wilson, the TTC ran a few routes like what you're proposing into Wilson to draw people onto the Spadina line instead of continuing to the Yonge line.

116 OAKDALE was the Sheppard equivalent, operating along the Allen and Sheppard. 116 and 116A (via CFB Downsview) went to Weston, while 116B went up Oakdale to Steeles like today's 84D branch. The first two were discontinued in 1984 while the 116B branch was absorbed into Sheppard West as 84C in 1987.

117 ALNESS was originally the Steeles equivalent, operating via Allen, Dufferin and Alness to Steeles, and west on Steeles to loop around Jane. The branch along Steeles to Jane was discontinued after only 7 months as it did not get enough riders.

118 FINCH VIA ALLEN was the Finch equivalent and ran from 1983 until 1996. It had rush hour only service from 1984 onwards and ran to Humber College. The low ridership meant it was doomed with the 1996 service cuts, and I doubt the TTC is looking to reinstate this route anytime soon.

The TTC has tried these routes and they failed because of low ridership. In this period of low budgets and cutbacks there's no way a reprieve of the 118 service will happen.

(All info is from Transit Toronto).

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118 FINCH VIA ALLEN was the Finch equivalent and ran from 1983 until 1996. It had rush hour only service from 1984 onwards and ran to Humber College. The low ridership meant it was doomed with the 1996 service cuts, and I doubt the TTC is looking to reinstate this route anytime soon.

The TTC has tried these routes and they failed because of low ridership. In this period of low budgets and cutbacks there's no way a reprieve of the 118 service will happen.

(All info is from Transit Toronto).

Indeed, I remember taking the 118 back in the day.

The eastern equivalent, 139 Finch-Don Mills, had hardly any riders in 2009-2010 when I got to (occasionally) experience it--certainly nowhere near the ridership of the 39. I don't know if its rerouting to run via Don Mills both ways, and the introduction of the 199, has made any difference.

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When the Spadina subway opened to Wilson, the TTC ran a few routes like what you're proposing into Wilson to draw people onto the Spadina line instead of continuing to the Yonge line.
That's very informative, thanks. I would say however that it's been 15 years since 1996 and reading through the T/Toronto article on 36 there has been a substantial uptick in ridership and service. Maybe it's time to take another look in the context of getting this "enhanced" Finch bus service going, assuming Ford rams this new "plan" of his through?

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