Eglinton Crosstown line

[MK78]

Could the TTC be running stuff slower to save on electricity costs? The SRT hardly ever runs at 60km/h, most of the time 40 or 50. So much for the R in Rapid Transit, lol.

But I think thats because its so old that it would fall apart. I remember in the mid 90's peeking thru the cab door at the speed and it would hit 80 on the long straights between Kennedy & Lawrence and Lawrence & Ellesmere.

[Turtle]

1 hour ago, T3G said:

The last time I was on the 510, I stood right behind the driver's cab and watched the speedometer. At no point in the journey did we crack 25 km/h. Same garbage heading back up.

The speed limit on Spadina is 40. How much faster would the trip be if buses ran down the ROW instead? And that's before we get into the untold time savings that having TSP would generate!

So the driver didn't do the speed limit. Buses do that all the time. Sometimes buses sit at a bus stop for two minutes on a green light without moving. Sounds like you are complaining about a schedule with excess running time, rather than a driver not being able to exceed 25km/h

[Turtle]

3 hours ago, WoodbineSecondExit said:

It has zippo to do with holding for schedule. It's 100% due to their lazy streetcar operation rules and obsolete technology clashing with the real world.

Example:

- Get on a downtown bound 504B at the east end on Broadview.

- Meet a streetcar at Dundas. Northbound car crawls through the intersection while your car waits its turn and misses the green. (Dundas gets the majority of green time)

 

Yes, that makes sense, even though the switch arrangement there would permit both cars to make the green light once the intersecting path is clear.

 

3 hours ago, WoodbineSecondExit said:

- Slow order on Don River bridge causes a missed green at River.

 

You mean slow order on the bridge on Queen? The bridge that a bunch of streetcars got their track brakes damaged on a defective expansion joint? So they were able to keep service running while the repair was being made by running streetcar traffic slower? Seems better than a diversion to me.

 

3 hours ago, WoodbineSecondExit said:

- Stop at Sumach. Signal goes red. 504A turns in front of the 504B because turning movements get priority. 504B waits out the entire 3 phases before it can move west at a crawl because of the local speed restriction.

That traffic signal is the worst in the city. Absolute worst intersection.

 

3 hours ago, WoodbineSecondExit said:

- 504B catches up to and stops behind the 504A at Parliament. There's also an eastbound 504A/504B/503. Speed restriction and no passing rule means another green is likely missed.

That would be the east King to north Parliament switch. Yes, makes sense, but enough time on that signal for one streetcar in each direction to move through the intersection while still abiding to the rules. You can actually do three through there if one of them doesn't have to service the nearside stop, but that last car through would be in violation of a rule by doing that.

 

3 hours ago, WoodbineSecondExit said:

- Further west, the same issues reoccur again at Church with the added problem of the far side stop. Another eastbound car highly likely causes another missed green.

Light cycle at Church is really short, but on some cycles you can get one car in each direction through the intersection. You have to wait for the farside stop to clear even if it was a bus.

 

3 hours ago, WoodbineSecondExit said:

- Major bottleneck at Yonge with the pitifully small platform causing bottlenecks. Another missed green.

Yes, you can't fit two streetcars at any of the stops on King, even though they have moved the St. Andrew and Spadina stops, the following car can't open the doors until it is at the stop. Same problem buses have but frequently violate (eg 29/929 at Dufferin Station)

 

3 hours ago, WoodbineSecondExit said:

- Slow order through York intersection and no passing despite no possibility of conflicting turning movements. A missed green here results in hitting a long red at University.

That is the driver who decided not to move, that is permitted. Did you ask the driver why they didn't move through on the green?

 

3 hours ago, WoodbineSecondExit said:

Voila. Several minutes of time unnecessarily lost for every customer every day because as the other person put it the TTC is afraid of its own shadow. TTC culture is a man-made disaster for streetcar operations and I wouldn't be surprised one bit if their cancer infects the Eglinton line.

All of your complaint is irrelevant to how line5 should operate. Centrally controlled and signalled (ATC system, moving block) switches, maintenance is done by Metrolinx contractors (non TTC), ownership of property and equipment is Metrolinx. There isn't an example of this right now, the closest would be GO rail, which is operated by Bombardier (Alstom) on rail that is owned and maintained by CN. So when there is a frozen switch on Lakeshore East, the news would complain the GO Train is delayed, but the responsibility for the delay would be CN.

 

So when there is a rail defect on line 5 between Leaside and Laird for a month, with a slow order through that rail defect for a month, screwing up your commute because it enrages you that every day it has to travel so slow, it will be the TTCs fault because that stupid driver is farting around on purpose, and not because they are waiting for Metrolinx to resolve the rail defect.

[Turtle]

10 hours ago, T3G said:

The last time I was on the 510, I stood right behind the driver's cab and watched the speedometer. At no point in the journey did we crack 25 km/h. Same garbage heading back up.

The speed limit on Spadina is 40. How much faster would the trip be if buses ran down the ROW instead? And that's before we get into the untold time savings that having TSP would generate!

I feel the need to expand on my "excess running time in the schedule" response:

 

You might have just been lucky to get the same driver twice, or two different drivers, who discovered the magical speed where you minimize waiting at red lights while still minimizing the travel time (and maximizing layover time at the ends). Sometimes it is as fast or faster to roll along comfortably at 22.5km/h than it is to race towards red lights at 37km/h and have to come to a full stop at every red light.

 

You may have been lucky to catch two streetcars that were picking up a lighter passenger load than the schedule expects. Less time spent at stops waiting for passengers to get on/off means less need to drive like a maniac between stops.

 

You may have been in a section where the driver was not allowed to operate quickly (Dundas to Sullivan - 20km/h max), or in a section where the distance between stops or intersections is tiny so there is no utility in accelerating to 40km/h (King to Queen).

 

You may have been in a section with a curve where the streetcar can't operate more than 20km/h (passenger safety, tail whip) and is actually supposed to take the curve at 10ishkm/h (Spadina circle). You may have even been lucky enough to have to ride it into the portal to Spadina Station or Ferry Docks, where there is a speed restriction.

 

Or you managed to get two brand new operators who are scared of their own shadow, and are doing their best to drive at more than 20, which feels like 70 to them.

[zb553]

On 1/3/2023 at 4:01 PM, Turtle said:

Fyi, the legacy streetcar network has a bunch of heated double pointed signalled and centrally controlled switches in operation.

 

where are these located? do they have stop-and-check orders for operators?

[Turtle]

12 hours ago, zb553 said:

where are these located? do they have stop-and-check orders for operators?

Leslie Barns. They do have stop-check-and-go if the light (signal) on them doesn't work, which is worse since stop check and go applies to all facing and trailing switches that don't have an illuminated signal.

 

If you trail one of those switches, you break that switch. On the subway and also on line 5, if you trail a switch you will probably derail as well as damage the switch

[smallspy]

18 minutes ago, Turtle said:

If you trail one of those switches, you break that switch. On the subway and also on line 5, if you trail a switch you will probably derail as well as damage the switch

I can't speak to the streetcar switches, but for the subway and Line 5 switches trailing through them will not derail a train. It will damage the switch, but there are specific components in the mechanism that are designed to break - and be replaced - for just this type of situation.

 

Dan

[Turtle]

11 hours ago, smallspy said:

 trailing through them will not derail a train. It will damage the switch,

Yes, my source misinformed me, sorry. Or I misunderstood, they may have said derail the next train to move forward through the facing switch that got trailed.

 

Another oddity with switches is the track leaving Exhibition where the track from the 509 "comes together" with the bypass. There is no trailing switch there, just some trackwork designed to do the same job without a switch present.

 

Another fun spot is the ladder track at Russell, fun to watch those switches get set remotely by the yard controller.

[smallspy]

5 hours ago, Turtle said:

Yes, my source misinformed me, sorry. Or I misunderstood, they may have said derail the next train to move forward through the facing switch that got trailed.

 

If somehow an incident where a train trails through a switch like that, then yes, the next train entering that switch will almost certainly hit the ground.

 

5 hours ago, Turtle said:

Another oddity with switches is the track leaving Exhibition where the track from the 509 "comes together" with the bypass. There is no trailing switch there, just some trackwork designed to do the same job without a switch present.

 

This, and the switch trailing eb on College at Lansdowne were purchased and installed as prototypes/demos to test new switch designs and geometries. They are also supposed to reduce "point slap", the loud noise of the points being forced into the opposite direction and one of the main wear points of that design. It will be interesting to see how they do in the long term.

 

They were also supposed to install the same (or very similar) switches trailing at King and Sumach, but I don't know if they ever got around to it, or if they changed their mind.

 

Dan

[Turtle]

1 hour ago, smallspy said:

 

They were also supposed to install the same (or very similar) switches trailing at King and Sumach, but I don't know if they ever got around to it, or if they changed their mind.

 

Dan

They installed something similar at King and Sumach when they redid that intersection recently. Those King/Sumach switches are buttery smooth on the straight and almost dead silent. They also changed the timing of the traffic signal slightly, although it helps greatly that some of the run ins/outs are using Queen instead of King now

[Turtle]

18 hours ago, Turtle said:

Those King/Sumach switches are buttery smooth on the straight and almost dead silent.

 

...just to add, the trailing switches I am talking about are smoother than the intersecting tracks in the trackwork there. You don't feel the streetcar trailing through those switches, you barely hear it even when the previous streetcar went through from the curve. They are awesome.

 

The rest of the trackwork there is the standard lumpy slow stuff that is the usual for streetcars in Toronto

[Turtle]

On 12/12/2022 at 11:25 PM, lip said:

If this is indeed true, i'm in full support of not having the TTC operating this line when the initial agreement expires and Metrolinx can go hand it over to whomever. This ass-backwards organization cant get one damn thing right when it comes to operations can they?

What I see happening is the eventual takeover of TTC rapid rail transit by Metrolinx, with surface transit left to the city to manage and run. Lines 1,2,4,5, and 6 would be absorbed by Metrolinx, while the legacy streetcar and bus network including wheeltrans left to the city to run and pay for.  If the TTC loses line 5 and 6, but still controls lines 1,2, and 4, there will be a few issues with communications and control to sort out. It looks to me like everything is being packaged in a way to make it hard for Metrolinx to take over line 5,6 without taking the existing subway network.

 

The debate here in a decade will be about what shade of green the new uniforms should be.

[81-717]

On 1/3/2023 at 7:32 PM, Turtle said:

There isn't an example of this right now, the closest would be GO rail, which is operated by Bombardier (Alstom) on rail that is owned and maintained by CN. So when there is a frozen switch on Lakeshore East, the news would complain the GO Train is delayed, but the responsibility for the delay would be CN.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Lakeshore line, RH line south of York sub, Barrie line (Newmarket sub), and possibly a few others, currently owned by Metrolinx? I thought CN locals running on Newmarket sub need Metrolinx's permission to use their track? So the only way CN would be responsible for delaying service on a Metrolinx-owned line is if a CN train delayed the normal GO schedule.

[Someguy3071]

4 hours ago, Turtle said:

What I see happening is the eventual takeover of TTC rapid rail transit by Metrolinx, with surface transit left to the city to manage and run. Lines 1,2,4,5, and 6 would be absorbed by Metrolinx, while the legacy streetcar and bus network including wheeltrans left to the city to run and pay for.  If the TTC loses line 5 and 6, but still controls lines 1,2, and 4, there will be a few issues with communications and control to sort out. It looks to me like everything is being packaged in a way to make it hard for Metrolinx to take over line 5,6 without taking the existing subway network.

 

The debate here in a decade will be about what shade of green the new uniforms should be.

Terrible idea. Because we all know that Metrolinx has so much experience operating subways and LRT lines. 

[smallspy]

6 hours ago, 81-717 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Lakeshore line, RH line south of York sub, Barrie line (Newmarket sub), and possibly a few others, currently owned by Metrolinx? I thought CN locals running on Newmarket sub need Metrolinx's permission to use their track?

Most of the track that GO runs on is owned by them, yes.

 

And yes, CN (and CP) need Metrolinx permission before entering their territories.

 

Dan

[Turtle]

7 hours ago, Someguy3071 said:

Terrible idea. Because we all know that Metrolinx has so much experience operating subways and LRT lines. 

No experience needed, just have to contract it out.

[Turtle]

Another little tidbit of unconfirmed info about line 5:

 

The Flexities they are using for Eglinton have unpowered center modules, only the end modules on each car have motors. The center module only has disc brakes. I haven't heard anything about the number of horns per car, but I would assume that there is a set of horns at each end of each car, just like the Toronto lflrv streetcars

[smallspy]

2 hours ago, Turtle said:

Another little tidbit of unconfirmed info about line 5:

 

The Flexities they are using for Eglinton have unpowered center modules, only the end modules on each car have motors. The center module only has disc brakes. I haven't heard anything about the number of horns per car, but I would assume that there is a set of horns at each end of each car, just like the Toronto lflrv streetcars

I'm not sure why you think this is unconfirmed.

This was all confirmed before the first Flexity Freedom was even built.

 

If you check the part numbers, you'll also notice that the motors are different than the ones used in the legacy fleet.

 

Dan

[Turtle]

19 hours ago, smallspy said:

I'm not sure why you think this is unconfirmed.

(for me it was unconfirmed)

I heard it from one of my sources over a few beers a few weeks ago, but hadn't gotten around to checking Wikipedia or the CPTDB wiki

[Xtrazsteve]

It’s standard to have the middle bogie unpowered. Most Flexitys in the world are supposedly build that way. TTC paid more to have all powered bogies to push cars up steep hills on a wet day.

[Turtle]

52 minutes ago, Xtrazsteve said:

It’s standard to have the middle bogie unpowered. Most Flexitys in the world are supposedly build that way. TTC paid more to have all powered bogies to push cars up steep hills on a wet day.

No need for sanders on the center bogies/module? The sander on the lead module/bogie is enough when slide is detected on the center module during braking? Even the location of the dispenser for the sanders in the trailing module? Isn't it behind the trailing bogie, which would be ahead of it if the trailing bogie is the lead bogie going in the opposite direction?

 

Or do the line5 flexities have sand dispensers ahead and behind the lead/trailing bogies? Make sense what I'm asking?

 

I know the ttc lflrv streetcars have sanders ahead of the lead and trailing bogies, while the center bogies don't have sanders, but some are equipped with rail lubricators.

[nfitz]

On 1/8/2023 at 8:56 PM, Turtle said:

No experience needed, just have to contract it out.

Like in Ottawa!

We'll see how Line 5 implementation in the first few years of service (by TTC) compared to the contracted out Ottawa line.

[Mark Walton]

On 1/5/2023 at 3:47 PM, Turtle said:

If you trail one of those switches, you break that switch. On the subway and also on line 5, if you trail a switch you will probably derail as well as damage the switch

TTC might want to consider something Montreal's Métro uses for its track switches: the switch lock mechanism includes a weak link that's designed to bend if a train trails through a switch that's set the wrong way. Fixing the switch is a matter of replacing the bent link, which takes a few minutes; the rest of the switch is protected. 

[Bus_Medic]

37 minutes ago, Mark Walton said:

TTC might want to consider something Montreal's Métro uses for its track switches: the switch lock mechanism includes a weak link that's designed to bend if a train trails through a switch that's set the wrong way. Fixing the switch is a matter of replacing the bent link, which takes a few minutes; the rest of the switch is protected. 

Oh no.  Somebody should warn them. 🫣

[Turtle]

7 hours ago, Mark Walton said:

TTC might want to consider something Montreal's Métro uses for its track switches: the switch lock mechanism includes a weak link that's designed to bend if a train trails through a switch that's set the wrong way. Fixing the switch is a matter of replacing the bent link, which takes a few minutes; the rest of the switch is protected. 

Fixing the switch is the quickest part of it. It's the rest of the accident that takes time to clear. They have to shut down service, investigate the scene, remove the vehicle, investigate some more.  That takes hours before someone can start to wrench on the switchgear. 

 

Of course it's also going to take some time for the inventory clerk to find the parts, and the truck will probably be on a shift change during the whole thing.

 

After they have the new parts installed and adjusted, they have to run tests to ensure everything is okay.  Come back tomorrow morning if you want to ride the train through there as a passenger.