Jump to content
Cartography 101

Eglinton Crosstown line

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Gil said:

BlogTO also ran this story last week: https://www.blogto.com/city/2020/11/toronto-new-science-centre-subway-station/

Aside from the fact that they're referring to the underground Eglinton LRT station as a subway station (lest someone think construction on the Ontario Line was well underway), it's an interesting sneak peek into the project.

It is a subway station. TTC already currently considers Line 4 Scarborough stations to be subway stations ... and the underground Line 5 Eglinton stations are a lot more like Line 1/2/3 stations.  Once they get to 3-car trains on Line 5, the length (and platform) is almost the same as the 4-car Line 4 trains/platforms.

Are the elevated trains in the Bronx not called subways?

Are the surface and cut-and-cover sections of the London Underground not called Tubes?

TTC has been clear that this will be part of the Subway network for branding. For example see the final page of http://ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2015/November_23/Reports/Eglinton_Line_Station_Names__Combined_Report.pdf

image.thumb.png.fd5474e2deefae9777fb5a7e66060224.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, nfitz said:

It is a subway station. TTC already currently considers Line 4 Scarborough stations to be subway stations ... and the underground Line 5 Eglinton stations are a lot more like Line 1/2/3 stations.  Once they get to 3-car trains on Line 5, the length (and platform) is almost the same as the 4-car Line 4 trains/platforms.

Are the elevated trains in the Bronx not called subways?

Are the surface and cut-and-cover sections of the London Underground not called Tubes?

TTC has been clear that this will be part of the Subway network for branding. For example see the final page of http://ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2015/November_23/Reports/Eglinton_Line_Station_Names__Combined_Report.pdf

image.thumb.png.fd5474e2deefae9777fb5a7e66060224.png

The terminology of "subway", at least in the Toronto context, is particular to the technology used. In this way, lines 1, 2, and 4 are all true subways, as they use heavy rail technology powered by a third rail that needs to be fully grade separated. Line 3 (formerly the Scarborough RT) is not a subway in this context, as it uses smaller and lighter vehicles with LIM propulsion systems. All four lines, however, can be considered the more generic terms of "rapid transit" or "higher-order transit", which the Eglinton Crosstown/Line 5 would also be considered as. In fact, in that document you link, the very first leg of the "decision tree" states "Is it higher-order (rapid) transit?", going on to list multiple examples of higher-order transit, including Subway and LRT.

As for that map, it's a mockup from 5 years ago that some junior-level staffer created in Photoshop to mock up the proposed station names. It has a number of technical errors in it, not the least of which is the complete covering of all the Line 2 station bubbles east of Dufferin.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Will Line 5 and 6 have transit priority signals for the trains that will actually be ON giving the trains advantage at intersections during operation? Or will they be implemented in the OFF state like on 509/510/512 because the city didn't want to give streetcars in these routes priority over cars.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Articulated said:

... As for that map, it's a mockup from 5 years ago that some junior-level staffer created in Photoshop to mock up the proposed station names.

That's a lot of words, that ignore that TTC is branding Line 4 as subway - to this day. For example the current (October 2020) Subway and Streetcar map. http://www.ttc.ca/PDF/Maps/TTC_SubwayStreetcarMap.pdf Not to mention the Ride Guide 

Line 4 is shown as Subway. And Line 5 looks much more like a subway at most stations.

You might not like the way it's branded. But that's how it is, and that's what the public are going to call it - when they aren't calling it a streetcar, having virtually the same vehicles.
image.thumb.png.64ebb1b00d39817fe7df72b24c0980e7.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Subways are higher capacity trunk lines for carrying riders across the city, streetcars are lower capacity local lines for short travel.

We'll find out if LRT would become a regular terminology in Toronto.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Orion V said:

Will Line 5 and 6 have transit priority signals for the trains that will actually be ON giving the trains advantage at intersections during operation? Or will they be implemented in the OFF state like on 509/510/512 because the city didn't want to give streetcars in these routes priority over cars.

Older Metrolinx Crosstown documents mention that it will have signal priority. However, I believe the city came out a few months ago and said that signal priority for the Line 5 would be limited (similar to the streetcar ROWs). Ultimately, it is up to the city since they run the traffic signals. I assume whatever is done on Line 5 will be the same for Line 6.

1 hour ago, nfitz said:

That's a lot of words, that ignore that TTC is branding Line 4 as subway - to this day. For example the current (October 2020) Subway and Streetcar map. http://www.ttc.ca/PDF/Maps/TTC_SubwayStreetcarMap.pdf Not to mention the Ride Guide 

Line 4 is shown as Subway. And Line 5 looks much more like a subway at most stations.

You might not like the way it's branded. But that's how it is, and that's what the public are going to call it - when they aren't calling it a streetcar, having virtually the same vehicles.
image.thumb.png.64ebb1b00d39817fe7df72b24c0980e7.png

Line 4 is a subway... the Sheppard Line. Line 3 is the Scarborough RT, or the "Scarborough Line" as it's called now. Personally, I think they just use the term subway for simplicity. It's easier to understand than calling them Rapid Transit lines.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, wil9402 said:

Personally, I think they just use the term subway for simplicity. It's easier to understand than calling them Rapid Transit lines.

Bingo. Meanwhile there's more Underground that's overground than underground. And parts of the Overground are underground.

And though Line 3 might be a subway ... I keep telling my kids it's a Skytrain. :)

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Articulated said:

The terminology of "subway", at least in the Toronto context, is particular to the technology used.

In the Toronto context, a subway - historically - was a passageway located underneath another, crossing, passageway. Queen St. W. underneath the railway tracks near Dufferin is referred to as a subway. The Glen Rd. pedestrian tunnel under Bloor St. E. is a subway.

 

So to state categorically that the term is particular to the technology? I completely disagree.

 

Especially since prior to the opening of the line the technology used on the Eglinton line will not have been used in Toronto at all, so there is no historic precedence.

 

For the record, the Eglinton line will be a "subway" - and at the same time it won't be, either. When it is underground it is as much of a subway as either of the three existing heavy-rail systems used in Toronto, featuring floor-level loading, full grade separation, a full signaling system, emergency exits and other ancillary devices for keeping the public safe. Trains will stop at each station regardless of whether people are waiting for that station or not. It is as much of a subway as the SRT, if not more of one.

 

On the surface however, it will behave more like an LRT the likes of which we have on St. Clair, Spadina and the Harbourfront. Partial traffic separation, the use of traffic signals rather than its own discrete signal system, and stop-on-demand are all things that we've seen on the other lines already operating in Toronto. Yes, the vehicles will be different - but their operation here will not be.

 

Dan

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/11/2020 at 2:00 AM, nfitz said:

And though Line 3 might be a subway ... I keep telling my kids it's a Skytrain. :)

It is at the Scarborough Town Centre & McCowan stations! :D

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/11/2020 at 9:29 AM, smallspy said:

In the Toronto context, a subway - historically - was a passageway located underneath another, crossing, passageway. Queen St. W. underneath the railway tracks near Dufferin is referred to as a subway. The Glen Rd. pedestrian tunnel under Bloor St. E. is a subway.

My grandmother grew up near Weston Road and the Humber River, and refers to the railway bridge there as a "subway". Having grown up in Northern Ontario, it takes me a moment to figure out what she means when she mentions it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Look at this video. At 14:25min.

They're installing the service stops with the Line 5 logo in pink instead of orange.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Orion V said:

Look at this video. At 14:25min.

They're installing the service stops with the Line 5 logo in pink instead of orange.

It's orange in person. Notice the lack of saturation on the red of the LFS in the background and the fact that it's a cloudy day.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...