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Cartography 101

Eglinton Crosstown line

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8 minutes ago, 110B West Pickering said:

Very little TTC Branding I’m not a van of, however am a little happy to see they kept in line with the numbering

Presumably there are more decals to come ...

The last TR car was 6196 ... so starting these at 6201 (or 6200?) makes sense.

Presumably the 17 Line 6 Finch West cars get the 6300s.

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23 minutes ago, 110B West Pickering said:

Very little TTC Branding I’m not a van of, however am a little happy to see they kept in line with the numbering

Why would it be branded as something it’s not?  It’s not really a ttc asset. The commission is just an operator under contract, like Transdev, or any other similar  entity.

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26 minutes ago, Bus_Medic said:

Why would it be branded as something it’s not?  It’s not really a ttc asset. The commission is just an operator under contract, like Transdev, or any other similar  entity.

TTC is more than an operator under contract. The Master Agreement says TTC has input on all sorts of things that a simple contracted operator does.  It also says that route management will be done by the TTC from the TTC control centre at Hillcrest.

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Yeah, they are an operator under contract. Certainly. 

But it's clear from the agreement that they are more than that.

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3 hours ago, nfitz said:

Yeah, they are an operator under contract. Certainly. 

But it's clear from the agreement that they are more than that.

But have nothing to do with any infrastructure or vehicle maintenance whatsoever...which reduces them to an operator manpower agency.

Which is even less than Tok group provides for VIVA...at least they maintain the “rolling stock” too.

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5 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

Why would it be branded as something it’s not?  It’s not really a ttc asset. The commission is just an operator under contract, like Transdev, or any other similar  entity.

A fully integrated asset under one gate line with TTC way-finding and operation would logically see a little bit more than one small logo.

Metrolinx, while in practice is like TFL in London, they certainly do not have the public recognition like them. 

 

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3 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

But have nothing to do with any infrastructure or vehicle maintenance whatsoever...which reduces them to an operator manpower agency.

Which is even less than Tok group provides for VIVA...at least they maintain the “rolling stock” too.

I think you are wrong, and there will be TTC logos visible. I guess we'll wait and see,.

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5 minutes ago, nfitz said:

I think you are wrong, and there will be TTC logos visible. I guess we'll wait and see,.

There are TTC logos visible. Hopefully there will be a bit more of a livery, but I doubt it will be the TTC one.

Also, read his profile

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8 hours ago, nfitz said:

Yeah, they are an operator under contract. Certainly. 

But it's clear from the agreement that they are more than that.

The difference is usually the operator is handed a cheque for running the service but in this case the aren't. Hopefully they can actually collect fares with these half broken Presto and Fare vending machines.

I don't think they would revoke TTC operations after spending money on upgrading Hillcrest for these lines. It also makes me wonder who will operate the Ontario Line. If TTC operates all the lines, if one goes down, they can easily operate more trains on another to relief the situation.

 

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1 hour ago, Kelvin3157 said:

Isn't there supposed to be some sort of green on the car?

Related image

There was... back before the Metrolinx rebrand. Since the rebrand they chose to go with grey as the accent colour

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I realize there’s a logo there, they are the designated operating contractor, after all. But expecting more than that doesn’t make any sense.

As smallspy has clearly laid out in the Hamilton street railway thread, the riding public doesn’t give a rat’s ass. Any sentiments that it “should” look more like a TTC line, or vehicle livery are figments of the the transit enthusiast community’s collective imagination.

 

29 minutes ago, 110B West Pickering said:

Interesting that they decided to use this setup at B end, meaning they will presumably always operate in at least two car consists while in service

4CAE3C31-7A28-40FF-9056-8FEE515C51CA.png

That was the plan from the get go.

 

8 hours ago, nfitz said:

I think you are wrong, and there will be TTC logos visible. I guess we'll wait and see,.

I never said there wouldn’t be one.

Much like TOK transit, or Pacific Western in Whitby have decals identifying the designated operator of the service, so shall the Eglinton crosstown vehicle sport a discreet TTC logo.

Looking forward into the future, I think a more likely scenario will be to see the TTC   logos slowly removed and replaced on the existing rail fleet for metrolinx, rather than the other way ‘round.

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Will there be penalties imposed by metrolinx on the TTC for excessive delays due to operation error and unjustified delays like their is for YRT contractors ( TOK, Miller, Transdev )

as said by bus medic the logo is simply just to state ttc is operating it and foamers can consider that lucky, they really only had to put it in text “operated by the TTC” as seen in this image of what YRT does 

As for the wording of a 10-year contract, that can mean anything with the way the provincial government is running and with future plannings, it very well could go to another operator in 10 years time, look at ION it’s being operated by a contractor completely separated from the region of Waterloo. Transit is unfortunately turning into a for profit business 

BE7DAA2C-DCEC-4A89-9D40-08D52D018A22.jpeg

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Don't think it's necessary to press any notion that people should know what the score is on TTC colours/branding too hard when City Councillors aren't being kept informed

 

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3 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

Much like TOK transit, or Pacific Western in Whitby have decals identifying the designated operator of the service, so shall the Eglinton crosstown vehicle sport a discreet TTC logo.

Yes, but.....

 

In those cases, the operator is not responsible for setting out the operating plan, or frequencies of the line, or providing supervision of the service on the route. That is contingent on the agency, and the contractor just provides the staff to run the service and maintain the vehicles.


In this case, the TTC will be designing the operating plan, will be figuring out the frequencies and providing supervision for the route. Yes, they won't be supplying the maintenance of the line or the vehicles, but they will be doing just about everything else.

 

17 minutes ago, dowlingm said:

Don't think it's necessary to press any notion that people should know what the score is on TTC colours/branding too hard when City Councillors aren't being kept informed

The original plan was the vehicles would be dressed up in their final livery in the weeks before the opening of the line. I don't know if this has changed, but I don't have reason to believe that it has as yet, Mr. Verster's words notwithstanding.

 

Dan

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Phew! Happy to hear the staff in the Gunn building are safe!  I can feel the wolves’ breath on the back of my neck already. My only saving grace is it’s a buyer’s market in the skilled trades. 

These Design Build Finance Maintain arrangements are going to turn the business on its head.

I was fully expecting to wear a Prevost logo on my back at some point in my life, but it was supposed to be after my retirement 

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16 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

These Design Build Finance Maintain arrangements are going to turn the business on its head.

I think that it might be too late for that - they already have.

 

Dan

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On May 23, 2019 at 4:24 PM, Bus_Medic said:

My only saving grace is it’s a buyer’s market in the skilled trades. 

Did you mean seller's market?  It's usually bad news if you're selling something into a buyer's market.

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1 hour ago, Wayside Observer said:

Did you mean seller's market?  It's usually bad news if you're selling something into a buyer's market.

I’ve always envisioned the employer as the seller, employee as buyer....whatever. 

Gist of the rant is that apparently as long as there are at least ttc guys in the cab, everything’s kosher. What happens in the shop or the tunnels doesn’t matter, and the    parasitic ATU agrees. Yet they push this nauseating “united brother/sister” bullshit at every opportunity.

They’d crawl over the corpses of three dead technicians if they thought it would get the operators a five cent raise.

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2 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

I’ve always envisioned the employer as the seller, employee as buyer....whatever. 

Gist of the rant is that apparently as long as there are at least ttc guys in the cab, everything’s kosher. What happens in the shop or the tunnels doesn’t matter, and the    parasitic ATU agrees. Yet they push this nauseating “united brother/sister” bullshit at every opportunity.

They’d crawl over the corpses of three dead technicians if they thought it would get the operators a five cent raise.

I get the rant completely.  I'm dealing with a different employer, different union, different industry, but have encountered similar problems.  We're all in one great big union like ATU 113 and the problem with everyone being in such a large bargaining unit is the tyranny of the majority.  Small groups of people get thrown under the wheels for the supposed 'greater good' all the time and it's always to the benefit of the operations people since they're the largest group.  Our collective agreement came up and was renegotiated over the winter and the tentative agreement was voted on in spring.  I read through the information package and the letters of understanding that composed the tentative agreement and discovered that the Toronto technical maintenance and infrastructure support group got sold out in a huge way and there was language in the contract specifically excluding us from a number of crucial protections and benefits.

I went to the information session, another guy from one of the other shops went, and between the two of us, we hammered them for an hour demanding to know what they negotiated for us in lieu of the protections and benefits we were excluded from.  The answer?  Nothing.  And this was portrayed as a victory because it got a few things into the contract for the first time!  It came completely at our area's expense though and the uproar was immense - once people found out about the concessions that were made - but despite that, far more than enough of a percentage of people who voted on it approved it so now we're all stuck.  It's led to a lot of friction and tension, and whenever one of the union people comes into the shop, especially if they're looking for help with something, the tension's palpable.  All the union correspondence is signed "In solidarity" at the bottom which is a total crock because that idea goes out the window as soon as goodies can be bought for the operations staff if one of the smaller departments gets sold out to pay for it.

One of my best friends worked in the police department when it was still Metro as an electronics technologist looking after various systems there and he ran into the same problem with the police union.  They sold out the civilian employees all the time to get a few cents more for the uniforms.  It was one of the reasons why he left.  But yeah, in places where there's one big union claiming to represent everyone, the technical staff always get screwed.  My ex-metro police friend and I have both ranted about it as well because it sucks, it's a shitty situation to be in.

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