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16 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

However, Chinese companies run with long hours, lower safety protocols and much lower employee satisfaction. They are a level closer to slaves in China. They obviously can't do that here.

As someone who works and deals with China on a day-to-day basis....

 

That's a pretty fucking stupid thing to say.

 

Dan

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On 5/16/2017 at 4:15 PM, drum118 said:

 

As a note, AMT just awarded CRRC an order for 24 bi-levels that BBD was to get a year ago that was in demand by NA systems and being supply by others now. BBD could not meet the 24 month schedule for the first car, or 2019 time frame since they need 30 months. Still lost on price. Cars will be built in Springfield Mass Plant that is to come on line this year for Boston Subway Cars and a just awarded contract for SEPTA bi-level cars.

When did AMT place an order from CRRC?

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1 hour ago, TheAverageJoe said:

When did AMT place an order from CRRC?

Very recently, as last year they cancelled Bombardier's bid for the same contract because there was a compliance issue @ BBD. There are a few news articles (they're in French, which I don't know much of, but its clear they're working towards a deal). Often times you won't see an official press release from a manufacturer until a deal is formally signed. You hear about these orders before hand because those responsible for procuring the equipment sometimes make their dealings public.

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12 hours ago, smallspy said:

As someone who works and deals with China on a day-to-day basis....

 

That's a pretty fucking stupid thing to say.

 

Dan

Are you saying their working conditions are acceptable?

12 hour shifts, 6 days a week

$1 to a few US dollars per hour wage

Workers residence for them to move far away from their home

Polluted environment 

Much higher injury rates

The factories where they showcase their work to the world might not look like that but who knows what the parts factories look like.

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On 5/16/2017 at 4:50 PM, Xtrazsteve said:

Canadian unionized labour is no match to Chinese labour. They just look like lazy fools in the Chinese eye. However, Chinese companies run with long hours, lower safety protocols and much lower employee satisfaction. They are a level closer to slaves in China. They obviously can't do that here. 

Its also important to note that companies like CRRC are heavily funded by the Chinese Government (okay, BBD got funding as well, but that money was intended to help with the aircraft and then of course the executives got raises). It may not be actual slavery, but its hard to deny that bad labor conditions don't exist in China, and bad or not, its always going to be cheaper. 

Back on topic though, does anyone know where the 61 Alstom vehicles will be produced-Ottawa? Somewhere else?

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Just now, WMATAC40LF said:

Its also important to note that companies like CRRC are heavily funded by the Chinese Government (okay, BBD got funding as well, but that money was intended to help with the aircraft and then of course the executives got raises). It may not be actual slavery, but its hard to deny that bad labor conditions don't exist in China, and bad or not, its always going to be cheaper. 

Back on topic though, does anyone know where the 61 Alstom vehicles will be produced-Ottawa? Somewhere else?

It's not just in China. It's a worldwide third country issue. It used to happen here back in the 1920s and 30s. Then unions came to play and improved working conditions.

Alstom say they'll get a factory in the GTA and hire local people.The parts would probably come from the same source as the Ottawa cars. So there shouldn't be any part supply problems unlike Bombardier. 

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10 minutes ago, WMATAC40LF said:

Back on topic though, does anyone know where the 61 Alstom vehicles will be produced-Ottawa? Somewhere else?

Probably Hornell, NY like the Ottawa cars with final assembly somewhere in the GTA according to the news release.

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16 hours ago, smallspy said:

As someone who works and deals with China on a day-to-day basis....

 

That's a pretty fucking stupid thing to say.

I've seen various reports over the years, and comments from people who have visited factories there saying similar. On which point is he completely wrong? I don't generally disagree with you, and agree with him, but it seems pretty in line with, for example, http://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/why-chinese-factories-fare-poorly-in-the-u-s

 

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12 hours ago, TheAverageJoe said:

When did AMT place an order from CRRC?

Here is the English conversion from French since there been only one posting by Les Affaires in French

Suburban trains: Bombardier escapes AMT contract from Chinese
Published on 15/05/2017 at 14:55
 
 
New tile for Bombardier. Les Affaires learned that the Agence métropolitaine de transport (AMT), which is responsible for the commuter rail network in the Montréal region, has awarded the Chinese company CRRC a mandate to manufacture 24 new cars, which Bombardier also coveted.
 
 
The AMT's preference for the China Railway Rolling Stock Corporation (CRRC) was formalized by signature on Thursday, May 11, the same day that Bombardier held its annual meeting of shareholders in Dorval. Bombardier was one of only two bidders to respond to this AMT tender but failed to win the bid.
 
 
The Chinese CRRC was the lowest bidder, confirms agency spokesman Fanie St-Pierre. It has committed to manufacturing all 24 of the two-tiered cars ordered for $ 69 million. The amount of this invoice is well below the $ 103M that the AMT had planned for its project in its last capital program.
 
 
"We are very happy with the result," said Ms. St-Pierre. In such a context, even if no one knows the future, it is hoped that we will be able to complete this project of acquiring new cars without cost overruns. "
 
 
The cars ordered are intended for the commuter train lines of Candiac, Vaudreuil-Dorion and Saint-Jérôme. Some will be designed to accommodate users with reduced mobility. Delivery of the first cars must start no later than 24 months after the contract is signed, ie in the spring of 2019.
 
 
Bombardier Transportation's local management joined the headquarters of St-Bruno-de-Montarville and did not wish to comment, arguing that the contract had not yet been granted. "The parties have been informed, but the contract has not yet been formally signed," said Bombardier spokesman Marc-André Lefebvre. "All I can tell you," he said, "is that we have presented the AMT with a more competitive proposal, taking into account the lifetime cost of vehicles." See later reaction: Contract To China: Angry Bomber
 
 
In December 2015, the AMT published its first international tender for these two-level cars. At maturity, in March 2016, the AMT had received only one proposal, that of Bombardier, which was deemed non-compliant. Bombardier's proposal apparently did not meet either the technical specifications or the delivery schedule.
 
 
In May 2016, the AMT decided to cancel the process and after consultations with various manufacturers, in particular Korean and Chinese, the agency decided to restart the invitation to tender process. At maturity, on March 24, 2017, two proposals were received, those of Bombardier and CRRC.
 
 
Between the two appeals, the AMT alleges that it made a number of changes. Among the most important: a reduction in the Canadian content requirement. So, from one call for tenders to the next, Ms. St-Pierre confirmed, the Canadian content required for this contract has gone from 25% to 15%.
 
 
"It was absolutely right to demand 25% as we had first done," says St-Pierre. But as the industry standard is apparently more around 10%, 15%, several manufacturers have refrained from submitting their applications. "
 
 
CRRC is the world's largest manufacturer of rolling stock. The Chinese state-owned company is currently building factories in Chicago and Boston after snatching orders also coveted by Bombardier.
 
 
In 2009, it was one of its subsidiaries, Zhuzhou Electric Locomotive, which had wanted to participate in the tender of the Société de transport de Montréal (STM) for the renewal of cars in the Montréal metro. After many twists and turns, the consortium, consisting of Bombardier and Alstom, finally won the stake.
 
 
The Bombardier share was trading at $ 2.16 shortly before 3 pm on Monday, up 1.89%, or $ 0.04. Since the beginning of 2017, its stock has declined by 1.85% on the Toronto 
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12 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

Are you saying their working conditions are acceptable?

12 hour shifts, 6 days a week

$1 to a few US dollars per hour wage

Workers residence for them to move far away from their home

Polluted environment 

Much higher injury rates

The factories where they showcase their work to the world might not look like that but who knows what the parts factories look like.

Maybe not all of them - but the ones I have been to and worked in are quite clean, well-lit and safe. So to paint them all with the brush that they're all working as slaves, getting mowed down in these dirty factories is ignorant and misleading at best, and outright lying at the worst.

 

The wages are irrelevant, as its tied to cost of living. When you can buy a large lunch for 2 people for $2.25, or clothing for the Canadian equivalent of pennies, the hourly wage can be lower as well. Suffice to say that they're not having an issue accumulating savings.

 

Accommodations - so where do the guys working up in the mines in Northwest Territories fit, then? Since, you know, they're being moved by their companies thousands and thousands of kms away from where they live. What a lot of the factories have found is that if they don't offer accommodations to the employees they simply aren't able to retain nearly as many of them.

 

Dan

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16 hours ago, WMATAC40LF said:

Very recently, as last year they cancelled Bombardier's bid for the same contract because there was a compliance issue @ BBD. There are a few news articles (they're in French, which I don't know much of, but its clear they're working towards a deal). Often times you won't see an official press release from a manufacturer until a deal is formally signed. You hear about these orders before hand because those responsible for procuring the equipment sometimes make their dealings public.

I did know about that one

4 hours ago, drum118 said:

Here is the English conversion from French since there been only one posting by Les Affaires in French

Suburban trains: Bombardier escapes AMT contract from Chinese
Published on 15/05/2017 at 14:55
 
 
New tile for Bombardier. Les Affaires learned that the Agence métropolitaine de transport (AMT), which is responsible for the commuter rail network in the Montréal region, has awarded the Chinese company CRRC a mandate to manufacture 24 new cars, which Bombardier also coveted.
 
 
The AMT's preference for the China Railway Rolling Stock Corporation (CRRC) was formalized by signature on Thursday, May 11, the same day that Bombardier held its annual meeting of shareholders in Dorval. Bombardier was one of only two bidders to respond to this AMT tender but failed to win the bid.
 
 
The Chinese CRRC was the lowest bidder, confirms agency spokesman Fanie St-Pierre. It has committed to manufacturing all 24 of the two-tiered cars ordered for $ 69 million. The amount of this invoice is well below the $ 103M that the AMT had planned for its project in its last capital program.
 
 
"We are very happy with the result," said Ms. St-Pierre. In such a context, even if no one knows the future, it is hoped that we will be able to complete this project of acquiring new cars without cost overruns. "
 
 
The cars ordered are intended for the commuter train lines of Candiac, Vaudreuil-Dorion and Saint-Jérôme. Some will be designed to accommodate users with reduced mobility. Delivery of the first cars must start no later than 24 months after the contract is signed, ie in the spring of 2019.
 
 
Bombardier Transportation's local management joined the headquarters of St-Bruno-de-Montarville and did not wish to comment, arguing that the contract had not yet been granted. "The parties have been informed, but the contract has not yet been formally signed," said Bombardier spokesman Marc-André Lefebvre. "All I can tell you," he said, "is that we have presented the AMT with a more competitive proposal, taking into account the lifetime cost of vehicles." See later reaction: Contract To China: Angry Bomber
 
 
In December 2015, the AMT published its first international tender for these two-level cars. At maturity, in March 2016, the AMT had received only one proposal, that of Bombardier, which was deemed non-compliant. Bombardier's proposal apparently did not meet either the technical specifications or the delivery schedule.
 
 
In May 2016, the AMT decided to cancel the process and after consultations with various manufacturers, in particular Korean and Chinese, the agency decided to restart the invitation to tender process. At maturity, on March 24, 2017, two proposals were received, those of Bombardier and CRRC.
 
 
Between the two appeals, the AMT alleges that it made a number of changes. Among the most important: a reduction in the Canadian content requirement. So, from one call for tenders to the next, Ms. St-Pierre confirmed, the Canadian content required for this contract has gone from 25% to 15%.
 
 
"It was absolutely right to demand 25% as we had first done," says St-Pierre. But as the industry standard is apparently more around 10%, 15%, several manufacturers have refrained from submitting their applications. "
 
 
CRRC is the world's largest manufacturer of rolling stock. The Chinese state-owned company is currently building factories in Chicago and Boston after snatching orders also coveted by Bombardier.
 
 
In 2009, it was one of its subsidiaries, Zhuzhou Electric Locomotive, which had wanted to participate in the tender of the Société de transport de Montréal (STM) for the renewal of cars in the Montréal metro. After many twists and turns, the consortium, consisting of Bombardier and Alstom, finally won the stake.
 
 
The Bombardier share was trading at $ 2.16 shortly before 3 pm on Monday, up 1.89%, or $ 0.04. Since the beginning of 2017, its stock has declined by 1.85% on the Toronto 

Thanks!

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No guarantee CRRC order will go well (they are also building for SEPTA). They could hardly be worse than Rotem, but Nippon have been building in Illinois for decades but the midwest bilevel order is stalled for failing the crush test (not by much apparently, but a fail is a fail, and I believe the car design is overweight too).

 

The MLVs are a known quantity at least - when Bombardier have the capacity to build them in a timely fashion.

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1 hour ago, dowlingm said:

No guarantee CRRC order will go well (they are also building for SEPTA). They could hardly be worse than Rotem, but Nippon have been building in Illinois for decades but the midwest bilevel order is stalled for failing the crush test (not by much apparently, but a fail is a fail, and I believe the car design is overweight too).

 

The MLVs are a known quantity at least - when Bombardier have the capacity to build them in a timely fashion.

Every builder at one time or another has had problems with orders.

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  • 5 weeks later...

Alstom will be facing a lot more severe financial penalties should the order be delivered late:

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2017/06/23/metrolinx-beefs-up-penalties-in-vehicle-contract-with-alstom-in-wake-of-bombardier-dispute.html

Final comments:

Considering that Alstom is building for the Ottawa order and the production line going well, the Toronto order shouldn't have an issue. This is considering the marketing and experience Alstom has. 

 

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  • 4 months later...

Here is something that might bring this thread back to life: https://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/weblog/2017/11/12-eglinton_w.shtml

Grade_separation_map.jpg

If this and the Eglinton East extension goes according to plan, the Eglinton Crosstown line would become the longest rail transit line of any kind within Toronto, providing a unique journey when travelled from end-to-end from the airport in the west to UTSC in the east, passing through historical neighbourhoods and sprawling commercial areas, combining at-grade, underground, and now elevated track on a route that would act as a visual timeline of the evolution of the city and its suburbs. Not only that: UTSC could suddenly become a viable target for international students by being the first GTA university campus with a one-seat ride to and from the airport - something the university definitely would boast about!

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For lack of clarity within all the bureaucracy, will the Eglinton West extension be elevated like the Chicago L, at grade with blocked out grade crossings (Like the C Train), or will it run mid street with no external barriers (like Waterloo's iON)? Also, I believe it's worth asking whether or not building half the Eglinton East stops are really necessary. 

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City planning has it currently proposed as an at-grade line at all key intersections, with an ROW in the middle of the road. Essentially think of it as a St.Clair style route the way it is currently proposed, especially with the lack of interest Toronto Transportation Services has in making signal priority a reality.

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Since 510's signal priority was never implemented by Toronto Transportation Services, I wonder if they will do the same for Line 5 at above ground intersections? That'll screw up the entire Line 5 when it gets delayed the moment it hits the surface at intersections.

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12 hours ago, lip said:

City planning has it currently proposed as an at-grade line at all key intersections, with an ROW in the middle of the road. Essentially think of it as a St.Clair style route the way it is currently proposed, especially with the lack of interest Toronto Transportation Services has in making signal priority a reality.

Comparing it to St. Clair is a bit unfair, as the Eglinton Crosstown will have far longer stretches between intersections and stops than St Clair does.

 

As well, considering that we're still 3+ years away from the line seeing service, it's a bit early to assume that the City's Transportation Services department will be acting the same then as they do today or did even a couple of years ago. After all, they've lost a lot of battles over the past couple of years, what with the King Street Pilot project and all of the bike lanes going up.

 

Dan

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7 hours ago, smallspy said:

Comparing it to St. Clair is a bit unfair, as the Eglinton Crosstown will have far longer stretches between intersections and stops than St Clair does.

 

As well, considering that we're still 3+ years away from the line seeing service, it's a bit early to assume that the City's Transportation Services department will be acting the same then as they do today or did even a couple of years ago. After all, they've lost a lot of battles over the past couple of years, what with the King Street Pilot project and all of the bike lanes going up.

 

Dan

Fair enough, I guess I let some frustration get into my earlier post.  However make no mistake about it, Crosstown West currently has some useless stops proposed for the line.

As for TTS, I have no faith in them getting their act together for transit priority for this line. If they were serious, they would have already enabled it on Spadina or St.Clair to use it as a test to see how it runs (although it's not like they really need a test to see how it operates).

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1 hour ago, lip said:

Fair enough, I guess I let some frustration get into my earlier post.  However make no mistake about it, Crosstown West currently has some useless stops proposed for the line.

I don't agree with that assessment at all. Take away any more stops, and the TTC will have to start thinking about running a parallel local bus service, which will cost a lot more money in the long term. Remember, the surface stops will be on request - if no one needs that particular stop at that time, the cars won't stop there.

 

As for Transportation Services - like I said, it's too early to assume anything as yet.

 

Dan

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This is one I dont think we're going to see eye to eye on.

In my view, it's just a waste of time and money proceeding on constructing stops that wont be used much at all. The proposed stops that immediately come to mind are Widdicombe Hill and Wincott which dont serve many passengers today. The proposed developments wont even be enough to boost the usage of these stops. This stretch of Eglinton is much different compared to where LRTs will run elsewhere in the city, in the sense that it was designed as a transit corridor. There is not much pedestrian activity here so I doubt that a parallel bus service would be needed if, say those 2 stops were removed.

Although the surface stops will be on request and that will help matters somewhat, I wouldn't be surprised to see that at all to see that policy reverted at some point in time (either before the opening or years after operation commences) due to some sort of complaint.

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9 hours ago, lip said:

The proposed stops that immediately come to mind are Widdicombe Hill and Wincott which dont serve many passengers today.

If you are going shopping, those stops are necessary to make transit an attractive option on Eglinton West. I don't see any significant nodes developing around Islington. Martin Grove and Kipling, maybe, but I"ll believe it when I see it.

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12 hours ago, lip said:

This is one I dont think we're going to see eye to eye on.

In my view, it's just a waste of time and money proceeding on constructing stops that wont be used much at all. The proposed stops that immediately come to mind are Widdicombe Hill and Wincott which dont serve many passengers today. The proposed developments wont even be enough to boost the usage of these stops. This stretch of Eglinton is much different compared to where LRTs will run elsewhere in the city, in the sense that it was designed as a transit corridor. There is not much pedestrian activity here so I doubt that a parallel bus service would be needed if, say those 2 stops were removed.

And again, a paralleling local bus option will have to be run, and with it all of the costs that are required to run it.

 

Transit is not a zero-sum game. One seemingly minuscule change will have repercussions elsewhere and potentially for years and years to come.

 

12 hours ago, lip said:

Although the surface stops will be on request and that will help matters somewhat, I wouldn't be surprised to see that at all to see that policy reverted at some point in time (either before the opening or years after operation commences) due to some sort of complaint.

How can you figure that? That would be like saying the TTC would make all stops on St. Clair and Spadina all-stops all the time - and frankly, I think that would require a huge stretch of logic to come to that conclusion.

 

Dan

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