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If Bombardier is kicked to the curb, this will provide the best excuse to "postpone" all LRT's, except Eglinton, even further due to lack of vehicles -  i.e. cancel them. So there seems to be a grain of truth to Bombardier's claim that Metrolinx wants out, since they obviously don't need 182 vehicles anymore.

The Finch LRT is dead.

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If the province would come up with some cash to get all the planned LRTs done (and a chunk of the TTC's 60 car option) both Alstom and Bombardier would be kept plenty busy. Instead they are backing a 1 stop subway extension which will force full fleet replacement of Line 2 by 2026 or so

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So a second piece in the star said that these wold be Citadis Spirit model LRVs- so basically what Ottawa's getting.

This is just ridiculous, it seemed like 182 was more than what they needed, but adding 61 larger cars as well? What will they do if BBD gets their act together and starts pumping these things out of Kingston on time? I hope there's a way to convert some of these orders or transfer them to someone else just in case.

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10 minutes ago, WMATAC40LF said:

So a second piece in the star said that these wold be Citadis Spirit model LRVs- so basically what Ottawa's getting.

This is just ridiculous, it seemed like 182 was more than what they needed, but adding 61 larger cars as well? What will they do if BBD gets their act together and starts pumping these things out of Kingston on time? I hope there's a way to convert some of these orders or transfer them to someone else just in case.

I agree that it is ridiculous that Metrolinx is ordering LRVs to a completely different specification than its previous orders. The Citadis Spirit model, in particular, has been largely built to the same specs as Siemens's S70 and CAF Urbos LRV, both used in Houston. The Flexity Swift in Minneapolis and Kinki Sharyo's US LFLRVs (e.g. Phoenix) are similar too, in that they all consist of two large segments joined by a shorter one, rather than the equally-lengthed modules that the rest of the world uses, including the TTC's Flexity Outlooks.

But in fact, the Citadis has been produced in many other configurations as well: mostly of the widely popular five-segment 302 and seven-segment 402 configuration. Almost every new tramway network in France has used such vehicles. And they're popular abroad too: here's one of Rio de Janiero's LRVs that entered service for the Olympics last year - looks so much like the Flexity Freedom except for the extra doorways in the carriage. Shouldn't take much for the company to adopt them to BBD car standards.

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2 hours ago, Transit geek said:

I agree that it is ridiculous that Metrolinx is ordering LRVs to a completely different specification than its previous orders.

Why in the hell does that matter in the slightest?

 

If it fits the loading and track gauge, is capable of running on the same overhead infrastructure and voltage, and capable of being fitted with the same ATO/ATC equipment, it doesn't matter in the least if it is shaped like a circle or a square.

 

Dan

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Honestly, there's not really as significant a need to standardize LRT vehicles between all of the lines. Unlike the legacy streetcar fleet, each LRT line has its own MSF (maintenance & storage facility), and unless there's some major network expansions beyond what is already being funded/constructed, there will be no connecting track between any of the lines, so it won't be possible to have cars swapping between lines (like how the subway is capable of operating in emergency circumstances). In terms of maintenance, it's still only one set of parts at each MSF, and maintenance personnel and operators only need to be trained on the type of vehicle they will be repairing/driving (not that there need to be completely separate training courses on each type of vehicle anyway).

Metrolinx decided from the outset that their LRT lines would be pretty much an off-the-shelf design without compatibility with the TTC's legacy fleet. Specifications like track gauge, minimum curve requirements, and voltage (to name a few off the top of my head) were all chosen pretty early to things more representing modern international standards/best practices. This gave them much greater flexibility when it came time to tender for vehicles, as most manufacturers would be able to plunk down a design they already have, rather than the high level of customization that Bombardier had to do for the legacy fleet cars.

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There is a concern that the MSF isn't designed for 48m long LRVs. For instance, the equipment that lifts one LRV wouldn't support a much longer and heavier train. Changes to the design might need to be modified. Maintenance booths (e.g. paint shop) could be too short. The spacing wouldn't be optimal meaning they'll be about to maintain less vehicles with more dead space.

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2 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

There is a concern that the MSF isn't designed for 48m long LRVs. For instance, the equipment that lifts one LRV wouldn't support a much longer and heavier train. Changes to the design might need to be modified. Maintenance booths (e.g. paint shop) could be too short. The spacing wouldn't be optimal meaning they'll be about to maintain less vehicles with more dead space.

True, but if they were to use the Alstom units on the crosstown, this would only be a temporary issue.

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13 minutes ago, WMATAC40LF said:

True, but if they were to use the Alstom units on the crosstown, this would only be a temporary issue.

Once they install ATO equipment on the Alstom Citadis, they are glued to the Crosstown. The decision will have to be made by mid next year before they start testing. Or they could start testing a prototype from both fleets and decide. If the longer LRVs don't fit, they'll have to make the changes to the MSF now.

It seems like Metrolinx already made a decision to stick Alstom LRVs on Finch. The platforms will have to be lengthen to fit 100m trains. Shortening them would be a bad option as ridership is always expected to grown. This would give the line a higher maximum capacity than originally planned.

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19 hours ago, TechnicaProductions said:

Construction is already starting on Finch, what are you talking about?

It had also started on Sheppard East in summer of 2010 and we all know how that turned out.

10 hours ago, WMATAC40LF said:

 

This is just ridiculous, it seemed like 182 was more than what they needed, but adding 61 larger cars as well?

They are not adding 61 cars. They are getting 61 vehicles from Alstom and that is it. That is enough for Eglinton, since that is the only line to be built in the next decade. Adios Finch LRT, Hurontario etc. Next step will be to cancel the Bombardier contract entirely.

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9 minutes ago, ttc rider said:

It had also started on Sheppard East in summer of 2010 and we all know how that turned out.

They are not adding 61 cars. They are getting 61 vehicles from Alstom and that is it. That is enough for Eglinton, since that is the only to be built in the next decade. Next step will be to cancel the Bombardier contract entirely.

When Bombardier delivers, Metrolinx will be stuck with all of them. The is significant evidence both Bombardier and Metrolinx don't know what they're doing. It will be funny what that happens. Well, now that Finch has vehicles, it's harder for someone to cancel it.

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3 hours ago, nfitz said:

They've got enough vehicles ordered now for about 6 LRT lines. There's going to be a large parking lot somewhere just full of them ... waiting.

It makes you wonder how often the defibrillators at Metrolinx get used every time Hamilton has second thoughts about its LRT project.

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10 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

When Bombardier delivers, Metrolinx will be stuck with all of them. The is significant evidence both Bombardier and Metrolinx don't know what they're doing.

Metrolinx knows exactly what it's doing and they more than likely are on solid legal footing, otherwise they wouldn't have gone ahead with an alternate supplier for Eglinton. The next step would be cancelling the original Bombardier contract for non-performance, so the only places Bombardier will deliver in southern Ontario in the next decade will be Waterloo and of course the TTC contract.

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1 hour ago, ttc rider said:

Metrolinx knows exactly what it's doing and they more than likely are on solid legal footing, otherwise they wouldn't have gone ahead with an alternate supplier for Eglinton. The next step would be cancelling the original Bombardier contract for non-performance, so the only places Bombardier will deliver in southern Ontario in the next decade will be Waterloo and of course the TTC contract.

No they don't. Otherwise they wouldn't have changed the specs a million times. Metrolinx is new to LRTs. The court ruled in favour of Bombardier cause they meant the requirements in the contract so far.

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theory:

Province and TTC tell Bombardier-

1. TTC isn't taking up the 60 car option, just the 10 cars likely to be the outcome of the damages claim

2. Metrolinx will convert 50 LRV slots to streetcars and the province will pay for 1/3 or more of the acquisition cost. Other Metrolinx orders maintained to be allow cars to trickle out of Millhaven at a reasonable rate.

3. TR/Movia is if not a certain choice for the T1 replacement, certainly a strong favourite. It would be a shame if Siemens got it because Bombardier was barred or heavily weighted against. So shut up and sign the damn contract changes.

 

 

 

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On 13/05/2017 at 11:59 AM, ttc rider said:

Metrolinx knows exactly what it's doing and they more than likely are on solid legal footing ...

Oh, I'm sorry ... laughing so hard. Where's that defibrillator?

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On 5/15/2017 at 0:12 AM, nfitz said:

Oh, I'm sorry ... laughing so hard. Where's that defibrillator?

OH!! you poor believer in BBD thinking they will come out smelling like roses at the end of the day.

What do know, the GTA will have a 2nd supplier of LRV if BBD can do what they are supposed to do for Crosstown and Finch in the first place. Mississauga could see the 2nd supplier if BBD gets it way with Toronto order.

As for Metrolinx knowing what they are doing, I agree with you as they are clueless on many fronts.

As a note, AMT just awarded CRRC an order for 24 bi-levels that BBD was to get a year ago that was in demand by NA systems and being supply by others now. BBD could not meet the 24 month schedule for the first car, or 2019 time frame since they need 30 months. Still lost on price. Cars will be built in Springfield Mass Plant that is to come on line this year for Boston Subway Cars and a just awarded contract for SEPTA bi-level cars.

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Canadian unionized labour is no match to Chinese labour. They just look like lazy fools in the Chinese eye. However, Chinese companies run with long hours, lower safety protocols and much lower employee satisfaction. They are a level closer to slaves in China. They obviously can't do that here. That said, if CRRC quality exceeds Bombardier, there's a real problem here. When customers buy Bombardier, the expect quality products and good part suppliers. If Bombardier can't offer that, they might as well pack up as they'll be no match to CRRC within 10 years.

I still hope Bombardier can deliver the Flexity. It givens Queen's Park more reason to but more LRTs without being it's own scandal.

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10 hours ago, drum118 said:

OH!! you poor believer in BBD thinking they will come out smelling like roses at the end of the day.

There's no way BBD comes out of this smelling like roses. But that doesn't mean that Metrolinx knows exactly what they are doing!

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17 minutes ago, nfitz said:

There's no way BBD comes out of this smelling like roses. But that doesn't mean that Metrolinx knows exactly what they are doing!

Give them a decade. Bombardier would either raise again in a decade or end up in the well. Bombardier was pretty good when they bought out Adtranz back in 2001. 

Flexity trams are still growing strong in Europe. They just messed up their North America market.

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