Eglinton Crosstown line

[VivaLa1517]

Nothing we don't already know about The Crosstown. Just MicGuinty and Ford toured the construction site today. Citytv report.

The Globe is also reporting on issues that have arisen because of putting the line underground. Globe and Mail article.

I actually stood there today to watch them build the underground supports. Didn't know McGuinty and Ford were there before me though. I'm kinda surprised they mentioned that the official starting date was today because I've been watching them since October. I'm also surprised they didn't think of where to move all that soil because that's one of the key things I was thinking about for ages. Not to be stupid, but wouldn't a viaduct be a good solution to get the LRT across the Don river?

[skyfirenet]

Not to be stupid, but wouldn't a viaduct be a good solution to get the LRT across the Don river?

If you mean like the Prince Edward Viaduct with tracks under the road deck, the reconstruction of Eglinton and Leslie to handle it will turn the area into a traffic nightmare for months if not years if it can be done at all.

If you mean a separate structure, then you have the problem of Leslie on the north side and the CP trestle on the south side. And that's before you take into consideration issues regarding potential flooding of the West Don and explaining to people why they are losing parkland for the project.

Frankly, despite whatever Ford wants, it's starting to look like the only cost effective solution for the Laird to Don Mills section is something similar to what was planned for it under Transit City.

[Denis T]

Hi. I'm new to posting here, but have been lurking around for a while.

Anyway, ever since the news came out about Metrolinx and the TTC having a hard time trying to decide how to get the Eglinton line across the Don Valley, it really got me thinking. I would say that the best option for building the eastern section of the line is a Transit City surface alignment, with changes to still make the line truly rapid and reliable. Instead of having the LRV's stop for traffic lights at the major intersections, I was thinking it would be much better for just the stations themselves to be grade separated, but in between them, have the tracks run at street level in their own median right of way, without having to stop at a red traffic light. It's kind of like the 202 Northeast line in Calgary, but in this case, no level crossings, no flashing lights, and no lowering arms would be needed. The LRV's can dip down into a ditch under the intersection where the station is located and have an overpass that the automobiles, cyclists and buses can use, or the intersection can be lowered so the LRT line can use the overpass for grade separation and the automobiles, buses, and cyclists can pass underneath the station. Of course I am no expert transit planner, but with tight budgets nowadays and massive debt problems all around, reducing the cost by running on the surface while having grade separation when needed, I think that is the best choice. Now if only Rob Ford could get that through his thick skull and come to terms with the fact that his paranoia of surface LRT and a fetish for expensive underground rail is not the way to do things, especially when both the province and city are sunk in debt up to their knees.

[andrew]

Hi. I'm new to posting here, but have been lurking around for a while.

Anyway, ever since the news came out about Metrolinx and the TTC having a hard time trying to decide how to get the Eglinton line across the Don Valley, it really got me thinking. I would say that the best option for building the eastern section of the line is a Transit City surface alignment, with changes to still make the line truly rapid and reliable. Instead of having the LRV's stop for traffic lights at the major intersections, I was thinking it would be much better for just the stations themselves to be grade separated, but in between them, have the tracks run at street level in their own median right of way, without having to stop at a red traffic light. It's kind of like the 202 Northeast line in Calgary, but in this case, no level crossings, no flashing lights, and no lowering arms would be needed. The LRV's can dip down into a ditch under the intersection where the station is located and have an overpass that the automobiles, cyclists and buses can use, or the intersection can be lowered so the LRT line can use the overpass for grade separation and the automobiles, buses, and cyclists can pass underneath the station. Of course I am no expert transit planner, but with tight budgets nowadays and massive debt problems all around, reducing the cost by running on the surface while having grade separation when needed, I think that is the best choice. Now if only Rob Ford could get that through his thick skull and come to terms with the fact that his paranoia of surface LRT and a fetish for expensive underground rail is not the way to do things, especially when both the province and city are sunk in debt up to their knees.

Sort of reminds me of the section of line 1 in Paris just east of La Defense, it runs in the middle of a road but fully grade separated. This could work. I would be very skeptical of using at grade construction here, because this lowers capacity a lot and creates a bottleneck on the line. Given that the Eglinton line ought to provide an alternative to driving on the 401 for many people, and the 401's traffic problems are legendary, we need as much capacity as possible.

[2044]

Bathurst Station consultation

Station design video.

[Gil]

From the Toronto Star:

TTC may not operate the Eglinton Crosstown LRT

[ttcgeek]

From the Toronto Star:

TTC may not operate the Eglinton Crosstown LRT

If this happens, it's going to turn into another Canada Line!

[shambala]

From the Toronto Star:

TTC may not operate the Eglinton Crosstown LRT

Then that will be the beginning of the end of TTC as we know it. Metrolinx is calling the shots now and while TTC may not like that, it has to accept that. Thing is, if this goes ahead, watch for Metro linx to eventually take over TTC operating and implement the same thing.

[TheAverageJoe]

Then that will be the beginning of the end of TTC as we know it. Metrolinx is calling the shots now and while TTC may not like that, it has to accept that. Thing is, if this goes ahead, watch for Metro linx to eventually take over TTC operating and implement the same thing.

IIRC this is not really new news, the whole Transit City project and now just the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown was always a full Metrolinx project meaning that they own the line and the rolling stock, so therefore called all the shots on the line from the start.

[Articulated]

IIRC this is not really new news, the whole Transit City project and now just the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown was always a full Metrolinx project meaning that they own the line and the rolling stock, so therefore called all the shots on the line from the start.

What about the section of the line east of Kennedy, the current Scarborough RT? Is the TTC going to have to sell that portion to Metrolinx (or reversely, Metrolinx/the corporation running the line have to lease the structures from the TTC)?

I think the point was raised somewhere about what would happen if the line was closed due to problems, who would be responsible for bustituting the line? Would the TTC be obliged to cover it (and would they receive compensation for it) or would the contractor be required to keep a spare fleet of buses to cover shuttles?

Metrolinx is definitely calling the shots, as the province always has jurisdiction over the municipalities, but there would be a lot of details that still need a lot of working out before the line could be handed over to either the province or a private corporation for operation, and that extra layer of difficulty (plus the usual failures in private transit operations in North America) just seems unnecessary to me.

[TheAverageJoe]

What about the section of the line east of Kennedy, the current Scarborough RT? Is the TTC going to have to sell that portion to Metrolinx (or reversely, Metrolinx/the corporation running the line have to lease the structures from the TTC)?

I think the point was raised somewhere about what would happen if the line was closed due to problems, who would be responsible for bustituting the line? Would the TTC be obliged to cover it (and would they receive compensation for it) or would the contractor be required to keep a spare fleet of buses to cover shuttles?

Metrolinx is definitely calling the shots, as the province always has jurisdiction over the municipalities, but there would be a lot of details that still need a lot of working out before the line could be handed over to either the province or a private corporation for operation, and that extra layer of difficulty (plus the usual failures in private transit operations in North America) just seems unnecessary to me.

Good point, guess that will be needed to taken care of with the agreement that would allow people to transfer between the Crosstown line with the TTC.

[Hobble123]

If you mean like the Prince Edward Viaduct with tracks under the road deck, the reconstruction of Eglinton and Leslie to handle it will turn the area into a traffic nightmare for months if not years if it can be done at all.

If you mean a separate structure, then you have the problem of Leslie on the north side and the CP trestle on the south side. And that's before you take into consideration issues regarding potential flooding of the West Don and explaining to people why they are losing parkland for the project.

Frankly, despite whatever Ford wants, it's starting to look like the only cost effective solution for the Laird to Don Mills section is something similar to what was planned for it under Transit City.

Actually, a viaduct would be the best solution; and he likely meant one like the one that exists between Royal York and Islingtion Stns. Because Leslie/Eglinton sits at the valley floor, an elevated guideway emerging from the brentcliffe portal would allow for a level gradient at a station stop located on the southside of the intersection. Eastwards the viaduct could then veer south, passing underneath where the CP bridge is highest from ground level. This would result in a Science Centre Stn immediate walking distance from the actual attraction plus most of the residential/office towers at Rochefort and St Dennis. The actual Eglinton/Don Mills intersection is a dead-zone and will attract far less walk-in traffic; and the matter of a bus terminal can be resolved with a modest 2-bay loop on the southwest corner of the intersection. The 54 and 51 ought to terminate at Leslie anyway and a bus shelter can be incoporated into the main station structure there.

In fact, I'm not opposed to much of the alignment eastwards to Kennedy being along an elevated guideway/bridge/viaduct. That still would fulfill the whole purpose of tunneling all the way; full grade-separation away from mitigating traffic and might be more cost-effective too.

[Joe]

This is definitely a wake up call for the TTC. It's time for them to either put up with it or shut up. Personally, I think it would be a great idea if the TTC is under Metrolinx and let Metrolinx take over. This is what happens when you don't play nicely in the sandbox.

[Bus_Medic]

This is definitely a wake up call for the TTC. It's time for them to either put up with it or shut up. Personally, I think it would be a great idea if the TTC is under Metrolinx and let Metrolinx take over. This is what happens when you don't play nicely in the sandbox.

Huh?

[Joe]

Huh?

just sayin...just sayin...

[TheAverageJoe]

just sayin...just sayin...

again huh?

[skyfirenet]

My concern with any 3P arrangement is how it will impact the layout of Kennedy station. Basically, will it end up being designed to discourage people from transferring to the BD line to keep ridership numbers artificially higher on the Crosstown.

[Joe]

I still don't understand...if the TTC were to be run by a private company, wouldn't the company try to think of ways to LOWER fares, INCREASE service and that way it will make profit? I mean the whole purpose here is to make money right? Currently the TTC is run by the public and due to the budget shortfall, fares are increasing and service is decreasing. This is mostly the Government's fault for not providing proper funding for the projects. So is this truly what we want? Increased fares, decreased service, delay in project completion (or may not be completed at all) due to inadequate funding from higher levels of the Government. I certainly hope not! People really need to start to think outside the box... Take Taiwan for example, most of there transit is privately owned, and it is running smoothly. No delays, fares are cheap, accessible, clean, and environmental friendly. The TTC? We are behind in every aspect! It's embarrassing when my friends come from Taiwan and I take them on the TTC for a ride...

[smallspy]

I still don't understand...if the TTC were to be run by a private company, wouldn't the company try to think of ways to LOWER fares, INCREASE service and that way it will make profit? I mean the whole purpose here is to make money right? Currently the TTC is run by the public and due to the budget shortfall, fares are increasing and service is decreasing. This is mostly the Government's fault for not providing proper funding for the projects. So is this truly what we want? Increased fares, decreased service, delay in project completion (or may not be completed at all) due to inadequate funding from higher levels of the Government. I certainly hope not! People really need to start to think outside the box... Take Taiwan for example, most of there transit is privately owned, and it is running smoothly. No delays, fares are cheap, accessible, clean, and environmental friendly. The TTC? We are behind in every aspect! It's embarrassing when my friends come from Taiwan and I take them on the TTC for a ride...

Toronto is not Taiwan. Just so you know. Because it wasn't particularly clear from your post.

Dan

[Joe]

Toronto is not Taiwan. Just so you know. Because it wasn't particularly clear from your post.

Dan

Definitely Toronto is not Taiwan, even if it wants to be it will never be. FYI, Toronto is growing fast in terms of population and what not. Condos are going up and businesses are slowly rising. Transit wise, we are 10, 20 years behind. Forget about Taiwan, look at other places in the world, can you compare Toronto's transit system to anywhere else in the world? Japan? Hong Kong? What about London? Germany? Even the US has a better transit system than we do...All the TTC does is dream and hope for the best, talk so much about planning this and that but in the end it never gets done...Sigh...it's useless ranting here anyways, since no one cares...

[Orion VIII]

Even the US has a better transit system than we do

Are you sure?

[Joe]

Are you sure?

Can you build an express subway from Finch to Union? Or even from Eglinton to Union? I'd love to see that...In the US, they have that for how long now? Hmm...I wonder...

[GTAnonymous]

...Take Taiwan for example, most of there transit is privately owned, and it is running smoothly. No delays, fares are cheap, accessible, clean, and environmental friendly...

In the words of Morpheus show me. It's easy to type "running smoothly. No delays, fares are cheap, accessible, clean, and environmental friendly" but I highly doubt there are no collisions on the streets of Taiwan that cause delays to transit and frustrate it's customers. I highly doubt that every last employee in the company are so satisfied with their job that they are all beacons of customer service excellence. I highly doubt that everyone in Taiwan are of the same opinion that the fare they pay is reasonable. Make no mistake I don't claim that the TTC is perfect. Quite the contrary I know. But...

I still don't understand...if the TTC were to be run by a private company, wouldn't the company try to think of ways to LOWER fares, INCREASE service and that way it will make profit?

A private company would increase fares just the same if not more. Something called inflation and share holders would demand that. As for service levels, service increases would only take place in areas that would generate the most profit. So if you live in an area where there are only those two buses every 30 minutes picking up between 10 and 20 people per trip, you can kiss both of them good bye. The big reason you want to keep public transit public is because it serves the public and not share holders. That doesn't mean it has to loose money though. This is where I get frustrated with how operations are. There must be a way to balance out the profitability of the high use lines to subsidize the low use lines (like the example I gave about the two buses). I've heard people say "The TTC is not interested in profit" and "If they made a profit the government wouldn't give them as much money" I think that needs to change a little, maybe a lot, defiantly a lot. Profit shouldn't be looked at as some evil spirit that will be the downfall public transit. If profit is made in a company like TTC it wouldn't really be profit because there is ALWAYS something to spend it on that would improve the system, and if there are such silly policies in place that the government would decrease funding based on the TTC making profit that should be changed because it's no secret that there is never enough money no matter how much the government agrees to give anyway. The TTC will NEVER be in a position that they make so much money they could "save it for a rainy day". The thing with an ever expanding city is that there will be an ever expanding need for transit service increase.

...Transit wise, we are 10, 20 years behind. Forget about Taiwan, look at other places in the world, can you compare Toronto's transit system to anywhere else in the world? Japan? Hong Kong? What about London? Germany? Even the US has a better transit system than we do...All the TTC does is dream and hope for the best, talk so much about planning this and that but in the end it never gets done...Sigh...it's useless ranting here anyways, since no one cares...

Again I say show me. Believe me I know Toronto is way behind, it's downright embarrassing. Every 4 to 8 years one joker (exhibit: Ford) says the last didn't know what they were doing and they stop/change/undo whatever transit progress was started or proposed (too many example to mention). This made me think of a new TTC acronym. Truncated Transit Catastrophe

Anyway, basically what I'm saying is that the grass is always greener on the other side, but it's only cosmetics. I guarantee you that if you were to live in any of the places you fantasize about you would find out soon enough that there are malcontents there just as there are here. Something else you said that I do agree with "Sigh...it's useless ranting here anyways, since no one cares." I hear talk shows and debates about transit and other infrastructure stuff all the time, and it's not as if these shows are kept secret from the politicians, so what really gets me is that they still railroad a head with their own addends like all the voices of the people who elected them mean nothing, cause apparently once you are elected they do (the voices meaning nothing). There are so many logical solutions to problems all around them (the politicians) and I realize you can't please everybody, but I would hazard a guess, even a bet that if they took heed of half the good ideas floating around the AM/FM airwaves they would have more happy constituents then mad ones.

On a separate thought, I don't know if there is any past mention in this thread, but I was thinking about the problem about the dirt/soil/rocks etc that will be removed from the ground and the cost of getting rid of it. Why not re-open that bridge to the Toronto Island Airport issue? I'm sure all that rubble could easily fill the space between the island and the mainland! It's probably more then enough. Maybe expand the size of the island a little.

[Joe]

@GTAnonymous: I agree with your response and I do not wish to debate further since this is not the topic to do it. You're right, nothing is perfect and the Taipei MRT also had problems before. I guess it comes down to consistency, but that's another thing. I wish there was an actual place where you can debate about this because clearly no one (the politicians, government officials) is getting the message here. This may sound funny but if I was elected Mayor of Toronto, the first thing I'd tell the citizens would be I will not promise anything. You want better transit, better health care system, better whatever, my motto is: SHOW ME THE MONEY! No money, no talk.

Now, back to this topic, I mentioned before that would it better if this project was done in phases and I don't think I got a clear response. I was thinking what if they did the western portion of the LRT and just connect it all the way to Pearson Airport? To be honest, ending the line at Black Creek is kinda pointless. It's got nothing there and there's not much pedestrian traffic, just like Bessarion station on the Sheppard line.

[IRT_BMT_IND]

Even the US has a better transit system than we do...All the TTC does is dream and hope for the best, talk so much about planning this and that but in the end it never gets done...Sigh...it's useless ranting here anyways, since no one cares...

Can you build an express subway from Finch to Union? Or even from Eglinton to Union? I'd love to see that...In the US, they have that for how long now? Hmm...I wonder...

The US is more than New York. Most rail transit lines in the US carry less people than the 29 Dufferin bus, and there are many large American cities with essentially no local bus service after 10pm, or where a huge chunk of the urban area has no transit at all.