Eglinton Crosstown line

[Gil]

Don't forget that Leslie/Eglinton will someday be a major transfer stop between the subway and the Midtown GO train line. A terminal for the 51, 54, 88 wouldn't even be that complicated since no private owner expropriation would be involved (crown land). If the terminal were at Don Mills/Eglinton, frequencies on the 51 would have to go up if the 54 discontinued service along Leslie St in order to serve all those office towers during AM/PM rush.

If the 54 went into Don Mills, I don't see why they wouldn't backtrack east along Eglinton. They'd bypass the businesses you mentioned along Leslie, as well as reduce service to the western half of Donway. I'm sure the saving in travelling all the way to Yonge St. could be managed in having the route terminate at the Don Mills station.

Um, The Richmond Hill line doesn't go anywhere near there. The point where it crosses under the CP line is closer to Lawrence & Victoria Park than Eglinton & Leslie and it's not exactly a short climb between the two at that point.

The other thing to bear in mind is that GO transit still views connections with other transit systems more as a happy coincidence rather than a planned occurrence. That's why the Oriole-Leslie connection is very similar to the one at Danforth-Main (long and exposed to the elements) even though they were able to avoid that which is why only a few people use it.

I thought the whole point of the Wynford station was to eventually connect with a potential GO station on the Richmond Hill line. While all the condos are there, the road geography doesn't really make it a pedestrian-friendly station unless they got really creative about the access and entrances to the station. If the station runs above ground or parallel to the surface to cross the Don then it gets even tricker. Tunnelling under the Don would mean an extra hike up/down if you're entering off of Eglinton. Hopefully a lot of thought gets put into that station so that it's equally accessible for residents and future GO passengers.

[Hobble123]

If the 54 went into Don Mills, I don't see why they wouldn't backtrack east along Eglinton. They'd bypass the businesses you mentioned along Leslie, as well as reduce service to the western half of Donway. I'm sure the saving in travelling all the way to Yonge St. could be managed in having the route terminate at the Don Mills station.

It's implicit that that's what would happen though, a circuitous loop routing, whereas a terminal at Leslie is more direct. I'm just curious though how much a few extra Donlands-like mini-bus terminals, which can be built into the station's main entrance structure, would cost if it meant not sending customers all over the place willy-nilly to catch a bus.

I thought the whole point of the Wynford station was to eventually connect with a potential GO station on the Richmond Hill line. While all the condos are there, the road geography doesn't really make it a pedestrian-friendly station unless they got really creative about the access and entrances to the station. If the station runs above ground or parallel to the surface to cross the Don then it gets even tricker. Tunnelling under the Don would mean an extra hike up/down if you're entering off of Eglinton. Hopefully a lot of thought gets put into that station so that it's equally accessible for residents and future GO passengers.

The best location for the Wynford station IMO is actually north of Eglinton, underneath the plaza at Wynford Dr/Wynford Heights Cres. To get there, the subway emerges from a portal northeast of the Ferrand/Eglinton intersection and, following the curvature of the northern off-ramps, crosses the DVP on an elevated guideway. The line then cuts across the parking lots parallel to Wynford Dr (E-W segment) before briefly dipping underground for the station then reemerging to head eastwards over the Don. This point is equidistant from Eglinton/St Dennis, the condos at the north end of Concorde Pl and the immediate office parks on the other side of the highway for easy pedestrian access to all 3 trip generating areas.

I'd imagine the Bala Sub would have to be straightened out around Eglinton Avenue to accomodate a GO stop just beyond the condos at the edge of Wynford Hts, with a long canopied inclined escalator carrying passengers in-between the subway and the valley floor.

[smallspy]

I thought the whole point of the Wynford station was to eventually connect with a potential GO station on the Richmond Hill line.

No, the whole point of the Wynford Station is to serve the 50,000+ people who live and work within a short distance of a potential station. A connection with the Richmond Hill line would be a nice additional benefit, but isn't a make-or-break for the location.

Dan

[Joe]

just a suggestion here, would be better if the western portion of the line be built first? instead of opening the entire line in 2020, would it be possible to open the western portion of the line in 2015 and the eastern portion of the line couple of years later? equally important, if there's a surplus somewhere, why not extend the western portion to pearson airport? since toronto does not have a lot of money, they should focus on smaller projects instead of bigger ones. i kno this is a bit off topic, but the extension from finch to richmond hill center, finch west, and the downtown relief line should of been top priority. the sheppard extension to me is just a waste time and money at this point...well, what do you guys think?

[Kenster102.5]

If there were a GO station it would most likely be on North Toronto Sub where the Leaside Station sits now, if Peterborough gets to go through Leaside and onto the Don Line.

[409 Thornton]

just a suggestion here, would be better if the western portion of the line be built first? instead of opening the entire line in 2020, would it be possible to open the western portion of the line in 2015 and the eastern portion of the line couple of years later? equally important, if there's a surplus somewhere, why not extend the western portion to pearson airport? since toronto does not have a lot of money, they should focus on smaller projects instead of bigger ones. i kno this is a bit off topic, but the extension from finch to richmond hill center, finch west, and the downtown relief line should of been top priority. the sheppard extension to me is just a waste time and money at this point...well, what do you guys think?

If there are any surpluses, police and fire should be their top priorty, especially with their budget situations.

I do agree that the western portion from Yonge to say Keele? should be the first portion completed.

And yes, The Sheppard Line is a dud, however if anybody should get a subway, it should be Scarborough, and Sheppard would take the congestion away from Kennedy Station.

[new.flyer.408]

And yes, The Sheppard Line is a dud, however if anybody should get a subway, it should be Scarborough, and Sheppard would take the congestion away from Kennedy Station.

Sheppard would not help. It highly depends on the demand patterns that originate at Kennedy Station. Where are people headed?

Demand patterns (seem) to generally dictate downtown travel. Why would someone want to take a line (away from downtown) up to the Yonge line only to travel back down, increasing their travel times? During AM peak, it is highly unlikely that someone at Sheppard-Yonge can get a seat. Therefore, they'd have to stand - and take up precious room.

Yes, it could intercept ridership from north-south routes like 43, 68, 24, etc. But think of what that will do to the capacity of the Yonge line. People will crowd the already-crowded line. It's an end-of-pipe approach - by supposedly 'solving' a problem that never existed at Kennedy Station, we'll create even bigger problems along the Yonge line, which already has problems of its own.

The ECLRT creates the same problem by moving some (I can't quantify this) of the bottleneck to Eglinton Station to capitalize on the quicker travel time over Bloor-Danforth. In my observations, during AM peak, it is extremely difficult for riders to board trains south of York Mills. Think of what a single delay on the Yonge line could do to the system. I'd rather better regional transit integration first to shift ridership to GO lines.

[Gil]

just a suggestion here, would be better if the western portion of the line be built first? instead of opening the entire line in 2020, would it be possible to open the western portion of the line in 2015 and the eastern portion of the line couple of years later? equally important, if there's a surplus somewhere, why not extend the western portion to pearson airport? since toronto does not have a lot of money, they should focus on smaller projects instead of bigger ones. i kno this is a bit off topic, but the extension from finch to richmond hill center, finch west, and the downtown relief line should of been top priority. the sheppard extension to me is just a waste time and money at this point...well, what do you guys think?

The buried segment from Keele to Laird is the heavily used section of Eglinton, hence the start of construction there. The remainder of the line out to Scarborough was tacked on as a means of upgrading the Scarborough RT. The forced change in design (i.e. underground rather than surface running) has resulted in a change of the EA for the line. Ideally, the westward phase would have been the second one built instead of the eastern phase, but I'm guessing that they didn't want to isolate the Scarborough RT routing from the rest of the network including the yard. I don't know if the McCowan yard could have been retrofitted along with the rest of the line to accommodate that segment.

With any hope, by the time it comes to actually building the western phase we'll simply be able to dust off the original and update where necessary rather than have to revise the entire thing for underground running.

As for the other lines, with the additional traffic from Eglinton and (possibly?!) Sheppard, I don't see a northern extension of Yonge as a priority until additional capacity is provided for north-south traffic either from parallel routes or GO Transit. The additional capacity from the new Toronto Rocket cars will probably be absorbed by the two lines on the books.

I'd love for the next heavy rail line to be built to be a Downtown Relief Line. With the influx of downtown condos, there may come a tipping point when traffic on the Yonge and University lines leaving downtown reaches the same level of those coming in. The same condos or even proposed condos should be pushing for the DRL. With no corridor identified, land is quickly being snapped up and trying to shoehorn a line through downtown will only become more difficult and more expensive the longer we wait.

[Joe]

The buried segment from Keele to Laird is the heavily used section of Eglinton, hence the start of construction there. The remainder of the line out to Scarborough was tacked on as a means of upgrading the Scarborough RT. The forced change in design (i.e. underground rather than surface running) has resulted in a change of the EA for the line. Ideally, the westward phase would have been the second one built instead of the eastern phase, but I'm guessing that they didn't want to isolate the Scarborough RT routing from the rest of the network including the yard. I don't know if the McCowan yard could have been retrofitted along with the rest of the line to accommodate that segment.

With any hope, by the time it comes to actually building the western phase we'll simply be able to dust off the original and update where necessary rather than have to revise the entire thing for underground running.

As for the other lines, with the additional traffic from Eglinton and (possibly?!) Sheppard, I don't see a northern extension of Yonge as a priority until additional capacity is provided for north-south traffic either from parallel routes or GO Transit. The additional capacity from the new Toronto Rocket cars will probably be absorbed by the two lines on the books.

I'd love for the next heavy rail line to be built to be a Downtown Relief Line. With the influx of downtown condos, there may come a tipping point when traffic on the Yonge and University lines leaving downtown reaches the same level of those coming in. The same condos or even proposed condos should be pushing for the DRL. With no corridor identified, land is quickly being snapped up and trying to shoehorn a line through downtown will only become more difficult and more expensive the longer we wait.

Agreed with your post here. I mean, the reason why I brought up the Yonge extension north was because currently a lot of bus routes that go through here (i.e. VIVA, GO, TTC, YRT, and even Brampton Transit), so by extending the line it will relief congestion on Yonge St. With regards to the Eglinton LRT, it would make sense if the western portion be extended to the airport.

[wil9402]

Agreed with your post here. I mean, the reason why I brought up the Yonge extension north was because currently a lot of bus routes that go through here (i.e. VIVA, GO, TTC, YRT, and even Brampton Transit), so by extending the line it will relief congestion on Yonge St. With regards to the Eglinton LRT, it would make sense if the western portion be extended to the airport.

Brampton Transit has not operated any service east of Keele St for a little over than a year now. They replaced their shared service with YRT along Highway 7 to Finch Station with the 501 Zum Queen route to York University last September.

[skyfirenet]

I don't know if the McCowan yard could have been retrofitted along with the rest of the line to accommodate that segment.

The problem with McCowan yard is that it's too small for the existing demand the RT has. Retrofitting it without building new yard facilities elsewhere will only result in spending a lot of money with little to no improvement in service to show for it.

As for the western extension of the Crosstown, it all depends on what happens to the Richview Expressway lands along Eglinton over the next 4 years. Amusingly enough, I've always felt that if Rob Ford wanted to prove that the private sector really has an interest in funding transit expansion, the western extension of the Crosstown would be the most likely to succeed due to the relative low cost of construction and large amount of land available for development.

[Joe]

Brampton Transit has not operated any service east of Keele St for a little over than a year now. They replaced their shared service with YRT along Highway 7 to Finch Station with the 501 Zum Queen route to York University last September.

cool! did not know that, thx for the update! but still, during rush hour, yonge street can be a pain in the butt...and the funny thing is, once u pass steeles, its good again...

[BBfellow]

If the TTC had the infrastructure, they could run express subway service from Finch, stopping only at Sheppard, Eglinton, Bloor and Union.

[Joe]

If the TTC had the infrastructure, they could run express subway service from Finch, stopping only at Sheppard, Eglinton, Bloor and Union.

sounds like a good idea, but i dun think it's gona happen anytime soon sadly...

[TheAverageJoe]

sounds like a good idea, but i dun think it's gona happen anytime soon sadly...

Think you mean any time period. You would need a new set of tunnels each way for this service to take place.

[Joe]

Think you mean any time period. You would need a new set of tunnels each way for this service to take place.

ha yea, no kidding...i totally agree...

[Volvo Super Olympian]

Think you mean any time period. You would need a new set of tunnels each way for this service to take place.

well couldn't you just technically build a side tunnel for the platform and have the existing tunnel used for the express trains and the new one the "siding" for the local service trains to stop

Of course siding would have to be built in passing places and the express stops would have to be turned into 4 tracks where 2 are for each direction.

but then again.. boils down to money and the 1000 million some odd year process it takes for things to happen in Toronto.

[Orion VIII]

just

Just? Much bigger than that...

[Gil]

well couldn't you just technically build a side tunnel for the platform and have the existing tunnel used for the express trains and the new one the "siding" for the local service trains to stop

Of course siding would have to be built in passing places and the express stops would have to be turned into 4 tracks where 2 are for each direction.

but then again.. boils down to money and the 1000 million some odd year process it takes for things to happen in Toronto.

Building the express tracks along side the existing tracks would probably be an expensive proposition given the amount of development that has occured along the line since it was built. If you were to build a parallel express line along the same corridor it'd probably be better to build it beneath the existing tracks. Aside from transfers between local and express tracks (Davisville would be one likely location) you'd have essentially the same footprint. As for tunnelling beneath an entire working subway line that's another matter altogether. Perhaps building the express tracks in phases so you could at least leapfrog other trains particularly heading in and out of downtown.

This is starting to stray from the original thread topic, so to steer it back should some sort of provision be made for the Eglinton line (the SRT portion is too short to merit it) to have express tracks? Again, the current working proposal for the line precludes having 4 tracks without incurring some significant expropriation costs. There was one proposal to have the directions stacked, perhaps it could be revised to allow for express tracks? The western phase of the line out to Pearson has a more likely possibility of quad tracking since there is more land available essentially west of Scarlett. If a GO station were built in Mount Denis the track could provide additional express service to the Airport without the cost of the Union-Pearson rail line. (As an aside, UPLink sounds much catchier -- Union-Pearson Link -- and it'd keep the name of the current inter-terminal shuttle service.)

All this then begs the question how soon would Eglinton need express service and which stops would get it? Obviously the terminus and transfer stations, but which intermediate stops (if any) would get a stop. I'd probably throw Don Mills in as a transfer between local and express for the segment between Yonge and Kennedy. All the other segments seem fairly evenly spaced out.

Keele/Weston/Black Creek-Allen-Yonge-Don Mills-Kennedy (Scarborough Centre if they'd like to expand into the hydro corridor, although the alignment north of Ellesmere could be tricky)

[409 Thornton]

Building the express tracks along side the existing tracks would probably be an expensive proposition given the amount of development that has occured along the line since it was built. If you were to build a parallel express line along the same corridor it'd probably be better to build it beneath the existing tracks. Aside from transfers between local and express tracks (Davisville would be one likely location) you'd have essentially the same footprint. As for tunnelling beneath an entire working subway line that's another matter altogether. Perhaps building the express tracks in phases so you could at least leapfrog other trains particularly heading in and out of downtown.

This is starting to stray from the original thread topic, so to steer it back should some sort of provision be made for the Eglinton line (the SRT portion is too short to merit it) to have express tracks? Again, the current working proposal for the line precludes having 4 tracks without incurring some significant expropriation costs. There was one proposal to have the directions stacked, perhaps it could be revised to allow for express tracks? The western phase of the line out to Pearson has a more likely possibility of quad tracking since there is more land available essentially west of Scarlett. If a GO station were built in Mount Denis the track could provide additional express service to the Airport without the cost of the Union-Pearson rail line. (As an aside, UPLink sounds much catchier -- Union-Pearson Link -- and it'd keep the name of the current inter-terminal shuttle service.)

All this then begs the question how soon would Eglinton need express service and which stops would get it? Obviously the terminus and transfer stations, but which intermediate stops (if any) would get a stop. I'd probably throw Don Mills in as a transfer between local and express for the segment between Yonge and Kennedy. All the other segments seem fairly evenly spaced out.

Keele/Weston/Black Creek-Allen-Yonge-Don Mills-Kennedy (Scarborough Centre if they'd like to expand into the hydro corridor, although the alignment north of Ellesmere could be tricky)

Maybe go out further to include Jane and Islington? I'd rather see that, then express to Scarborough Town Centre.

[Gil]

Maybe go out further to include Jane and Islington? I'd rather see that, then express to Scarborough Town Centre.

The western end of the underground segment is still up in the air. Jane westward, if saner heads prevail, will most likely involve surface or at the very least trench running, which given the lands available (provided it's not sold of in the intereim as surplus) could allow for express running through Etobicoke. Certainly Jane and Islington would make candidates for express stations as would Renforth to connect with the Mississauga BRT. I purposely left the westernmost leg of the line off the discussion table since it's currently been deferred. Who knows, perhaps by the time they get back to it there may be a clear need for the express tracks.

[wil9402]

I noticed last night that the curb lane on the south side of Eglinton has been blocked off for a small section between Leslie and Don Mills. There is an electronic sign next to it saying something along the lines of "soil testing being done for future Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown LRT". I just went to the ECLRT website and found this recent article related to my sighting.

[Archer]

I noticed last night that the curb lane on the south side of Eglinton has been blocked off for a small section between Leslie and Don Mills. There is an electronic sign next to it saying something along the lines of "soil testing being done for future Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown LRT". I just went to the ECLRT website and found this recent article related to my sighting.

You'll see those signs around... there was one near the old York Civic Center a few months back, IIRC, mentioning the same.

[Orion9131]

Just? Much bigger than that...

It's amazing that some members think it's a simple issue to build tunnels in urban area.

[2044]

Nothing we don't already know about The Crosstown. Just MicGuinty and Ford toured the construction site today. Citytv report.

The Globe is also reporting on issues that have arisen because of putting the line underground. Globe and Mail article.