Eglinton Crosstown line

[BBfellow]

Or those nice Nova artics. After using them for the RT, they can be used for Finch! Long term planning people!

[D. DeLarge]

Uhhhh....i thought they got rid of the because they were problematic? We want to inherit someone else' problem?

If they're cheap enough, the TTC just might have to make due with them as SRT shuttles for the time being.

[smallspy]

I think I posted this somewhere before, but oc transpo artics?

That only works if there are still some hanging around for a buyer in 2015.

Dan

[Bus_Medic]

That only works if there are still some hanging around for a buyer in 2015.

Dan

Good point. I was going by what's available right now, there will be other options by then.

Or those nice Nova artics. After using them for the RT, they can be used for Finch! Long term planning people!

That's a valid idea too.

[Shaun]

And where is the money going to come from?

Instead of building a bus land along midland ave, could you build a bus lane from Kenedy to Midland beside the current RT line in the Hydro corridor? I'm sure it's doable until the Tunnel.

[Bus_Medic]

And where is the money going to come from?

I don't know, why don't you tell us?

[nfitz]

And where is the money going to come from?

For a temporary replacement bus for the SRT that would start service in ... what, 2017, 2018?

Normally such a service for an infrastructure project, comes is funded as part of the infrastructure project. What are we looking at ... 70 12-metre long buses at about $750 thousand each? About $50 million ... presumably there's a budget item in the $8 billion budget for this. And if not, it's a rounding error.

[skyfirenet]

I've always felt that the best way to handle the RT shutdown would be to use the CN Uxbridge sub and have a train running from Kennedy to a temporary station at Ellesmere, Agincourt station or both while running shuttle buses and rerouting as many bus routes as practical to those stops. The fun part though is how to work around CN's and GO transit's operations.

[wil9402]

Instead of building a bus land along midland ave, could you build a bus lane from Kenedy to Midland beside the current RT line in the Hydro corridor? I'm sure it's doable until the Tunnel.

First off, the Hydro Corridor that runs parallel to the SRT does not even reach Lawrence. It ends just south of Lawrence where it becomes part of the larger Hydro Corridor that runs diagonally across much of the east end of the city. If your proposed bus lanes were going to follow this corridor that would shift the Lawrence stop to Lawrence & Brimley, totally skip with Midland & Ellesmere area and you would still need a 2-2.5km on-street bus lane from the Hydro Corridor to STC up either Brimley or McCowan. Also, I would think that painting lines and putting up signs would be much more cheaper than building an entirely new roadway along with having to deal with how to cross the Lawrence & Brimley intersection and you do seem to be very concerned about where the money would be coming from.

[Shaun]

First off, the Hydro Corridor that runs parallel to the SRT does not even reach Lawrence. It ends just south of Lawrence where it becomes part of the larger Hydro Corridor that runs diagonally across much of the east end of the city. If your proposed bus lanes were going to follow this corridor that would shift the Lawrence stop to Lawrence & Brimley, totally skip with Midland & Ellesmere area and you would still need a 2-2.5km on-street bus lane from the Hydro Corridor to STC up either Brimley or McCowan. Also, I would think that painting lines and putting up signs would be much more cheaper than building an entirely new roadway along with having to deal with how to cross the Lawrence & Brimley intersection and you do seem to be very concerned about where the money would be coming from.

The article actually mentions building new lanes for the shuttle bus service. Either widening the road or by some other way. It also mentions that about 80% of the people ride the SRT from Kennedy and dont get off until STC, and the opposite.

So it might make sense to have an express route straight from Kennedy Station to STC and then local buses that would serve the existing stops.

As for laying down additional track or passing tracks to run trains on the CN line would be more expensive than buying buses? I dont know if it would be possible for trains to be perfectly scheduled to run in opposite directions on a single track route, with only passing tracks at stations. Would that even be feasible?

[BBfellow]

If the replacement bus was to stay on streets with no right of way, the route could look something like this:

Load passengers, Kennedy Station

Exit onto Eglinton Ave East, eastbound

Turn north onto Midland Ave

Turn west onto Lawrence Ave East

Enter Lawrence East Station

Load passengers, Lawrence East Station

Exit onto Lawrence Ave East, eastbound

Turn north onto Midland Ave

Turn west onto Ellesmere Road

Enter Ellesmere station

Load passengers, Ellesmere Station

Exit onto Ellesmere Road, eastbound

Turn north onto Midland Ave

Stop at Midland station

Load passengers, Midland station

Turn east onto Progress Ave

Turn south onto Borough Drive

Turn East at Triton Road

Enter Scarborough Centre Station

Load passengers, Scarborough Centre Station

Exit Scarborough Centre Station, McCowan portal

Turn north onto McCowan Road

Turn east onto Corporate Drive

Turn south onto Consilium Place

Continue on Grangeway Ave

Turn west onto Bushlby Drive

Stop at McCowan Station

Load passengers, McCowan Station

That would basically be the northbound route, with Midland having ROWs if necessary. If the TTC wants to shave MORE time off the route, it could place temporary road side stops at Lawrence instead of the bus turning into the terminal. That would cut off a few minutes. Also, the rush hour route could go from Scarborough Town to Kennedy non-stop. This is better than stopping at every stop because 80% of the people are heading towards Kennedy anyway.

[409 Thornton]

If the replacement bus was to stay on streets with no right of way, the route could look something like this:

Load passengers, Kennedy Station

Exit onto Eglinton Ave East, eastbound

Turn north onto Midland Ave

Turn west onto Lawrence Ave East

Enter Lawrence East Station

Load passengers, Lawrence East Station

Exit onto Lawrence Ave East, eastbound

Turn north onto Midland Ave

Turn west onto Ellesmere Road

Enter Ellesmere station

Load passengers, Ellesmere Station

Exit onto Ellesmere Road, eastbound

Turn north onto Midland Ave

Stop at Midland station

Load passengers, Midland station

Turn east onto Progress Ave

Turn south onto Borough Drive

Turn East at Triton Road

Enter Scarborough Centre Station

Load passengers, Scarborough Centre Station

Exit Scarborough Centre Station, McCowan portal

Turn north onto McCowan Road

Turn east onto Corporate Drive

Turn south onto Consilium Place

Continue on Grangeway Ave

Turn west onto Bushlby Drive

Stop at McCowan Station

Load passengers, McCowan Station

That would basically be the northbound route, with Midland having ROWs if necessary. If the TTC wants to shave MORE time off the route, it could place temporary road side stops at Lawrence instead of the bus turning into the terminal. That would cut off a few minutes. Also, the rush hour route could go from Scarborough Town to Kennedy non-stop. This is better than stopping at every stop because 80% of the people are heading towards Kennedy anyway.

Would it make more sense to have the buses running out of Lawrence East, west on Lawrence to Kennedy, North on Kennedy to Ellesmere, Ellesmere Station continuing east to Midland, North on Midland to Progress?

131E should also see improved service.

[BBfellow]

Midland is probably less busier than Kennedy. Hence the full use of Midland.

[409 Thornton]

Midland is probably less busier than Kennedy. Hence the full use of Midland.

Using Kennedy would save around 4 minutes.

Kennedy is fine oustide of rush hour, During rush hour Kennedy is jammed and Midland or Brimley would be better options. I'm not sure on the ridership levels on the 131E Nugget Express, but service should be improved during RT closures, along with maybe adding Brimley Express to STC.

[skyfirenet]

I dont know if it would be possible for trains to be perfectly scheduled to run in opposite directions on a single track route, with only passing tracks at stations. Would that even be feasible?

Ask Ottawa. The O-Train does that which is where I got my idea from.

[BBfellow]

Ask Ottawa. The O-Train does that which is where I got my idea from.

But they have much less demand and only two trains in service at a time.

[Prometheus]

Load passengers, Kennedy Station

Exit onto Eglinton Ave East, eastbound

Turn north onto Midland Ave

Turn west onto Lawrence Ave East

Enter Lawrence East Station

Load passengers, Lawrence East Station

Exit onto Lawrence Ave East, eastbound

Turn north onto Midland Ave

Turn west onto Ellesmere Road

Enter Ellesmere station

Load passengers, Ellesmere Station

Exit onto Ellesmere Road, eastbound

Turn north onto Midland Ave

Stop at Midland station

Load passengers, Midland station

Turn east onto Progress Ave

Turn south onto Borough Drive

Turn East at Triton Road

Enter Scarborough Centre Station

Load passengers, Scarborough Centre Station

Exit Scarborough Centre Station, McCowan portal

Turn north onto McCowan Road

Turn east onto Corporate Drive

Turn south onto Consilium Place

Continue on Grangeway Ave

Turn west onto Bushlby Drive

Stop at McCowan Station

Load passengers, McCowan Station

If the RT is permanently closed for a long period of time wouldn't it make more sense to have buses simply stop at intersections (Lawrence & Midland, Ellesmere & Midland) instead of entering the non-terminal stations (Lawrence East and Ellesmere)?

[nfitz]

If the RT is permanently closed for a long period of time wouldn't it make more sense to have buses simply stop at intersections (Lawrence & Midland, Ellesmere & Midland) instead of entering the non-terminal stations (Lawrence East and Ellesmere)?

Of course ... I'm surprised anyone would suggest otherwise.

I'd have thought that a simple non-stop express bus from Kennedy to Scarborough Centre (down Eglinton, Danforth Road, and McCowan? ... but being non-stop, it wouldn't matter which route - whatever's fastest that day). This screws Midland and Ellesmere, but ridership there is so low that shouldn't be a big issue. Perhaps an express bus to Lawrence East from Kennedy would also be in order (could simply loop one-way up Kennedy, east on Lawrence, south on Midland).

[409 Thornton]

Here is a map I created, highlighting service changes I think would be needed during an SRT Closure.

SRT_Closure.bmp

SRT_Closure.bmp

SRT_Closure.bmp

SRT_Closure.bmp

SRT_Closure.bmp

SRT_Closure.bmp

[new.flyer.408]

Unless you're interested in increasing runtime for no reason, there is no point in having SRT replacement buses pass through Midland, Ellesmere and Lawrence East stations.

Midland and Lawrence East are mostly facilitated by transfers from the 54 and 57 respectively, who can transfer on bus routing along Midland.

Arterial roadways in the area of SRT are unfortunate in that they appear to be supported by a lot of housing. The routing from the SRT closures a few years back work well enough for me (albeit with the lack of any sort of transit priority) - now, figuring out how to make it faster (even if through simple means, like POP or queue-jump lanes) is the question.

[wil9402]

Here is a map I created, highlighting service changes I think would be needed during an SRT Closure.

SRT_Closure.bmp

Riders wouldl find out quite quickly which route is faster and crowd the faster routes. The TTC has said before that they will adjust service across most of Scarborough and not just shuttling people between STC and Kennedy. For example they planned to add express routes in Scarborough, extending some STC routes down to Kennedy along with extending other routes in Northern Scarborough to Don Mills.

BTW, a 16A that runs express across Eglinton only to Kennedy Station wouldn't save much time than the regular 16. The current 16 takes about 10-12 minutes between Warden Station and Danforth Rd & Eglinton. Running express across Eglinton to Kennedy would take about 5 minutes along with a 3 minute subway ride to Warden Station, that's 8 minutes right there. Add in the transfer time between the bus and the subway along with the possible time waiting on the train at the platform and it takes practically the same time as it would taking the local 16 to Warden Station.

[skyfirenet]

But they have much less demand and only two trains in service at a time.

Yes but the way I see it, the TTC would use GO equipment, either leasing or purchasing new with a guarantee that GO transit will purchase them once work is completed or a combination of both, to reduce costs. As a result, even at departures running once every 15 minutes, you probably could get away with train lengths shorter than GO Transit's to handle the demand during rush hour. And let's not forget that there will be an empty commuter lot available at Ellesmere during the construction period which would easily be converted to a temporary bus terminal.

[BBfellow]

It would be kinda redundant for Midland to get ROWs with dedicated platforms. Queue-jump lanes with far side stops are needed though. POP would be a giant plus as well!

[Future Urban Planner]

My ideas for bus routings during the SRT shutdown.

http://g.co/maps/re93

My plan makes all the bus routes that terminate at STC and don't serve any other SRT/Subway station run express along dedicated lanes to Kennedy. My idea is that the possible decrease in service frequency along these routes due to this plan could be offset by the transfer-free ride to Kennedy. The busier routes that do this (129, 133, 134, and 38) could use 60-footers, or a mix of 60s and 40s, to offset the possible decrease in service frequency.

Let me know what you think.

[new.flyer.408]

Again, the problem arises. Why would we bother to route the buses through Midland, Ellesmere and Lawrence East stations, fully knowing they'd only increase runtime? The nodal points that people want to visit there are the RT stations, and with the RT not running...

I wouldn't mind if the walk-in traffic to the stations is very high, but with their current ridership levels, I think they can afford to take the 57/95/54 a couple of stops to a BRT service/N-S express.

I agree that there should be parallel express routes to siphon off riders from different directions and have them avoid the SRT alignment totally. But if we're sticking with STC-Kennedy alignments, in order to have an impact we need to make it so they have similar run times to each other (ensuring that people don't migrate all to the fastest one). That, or have one or two main express routes - full BRT, or BRT-lite - though I'm not sure how well the latter would do in Scarborough traffic.