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If you ask me, the ride guide should be changed to only show Toronto proper, and insets are provided to show the routes extending into York and Mississauga. Eventually I can see many (not all) of the routes going into York Region disappearing and being turned into YRT-run service (ex. 25D). The question is, how long would it take? I cant see the 58 west of the airport being changed, unless there's a proper bus terminal built for the airport (complete with a ticket wicket).

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I cant see the 58 west of the airport being changed, unless there's a proper bus terminal built for the airport (complete with a ticket wicket).

Ticket wicket's are soo last century ... its all presto and automated dispensing machines these days :P ... ahh the good old days when customer service was provided through customer-human interaction instead of customer-machine transactions

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Given the airport is the location of the only TTC ticket vending machines that I know about (so far), I'd think that a wicket is extremely unlikely. Unless the GTAA itself was to start becoming more consumer oriented, and included it as part of an information our out-of-town transit desk.

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I cant see the 58 west of the airport being changed, unless there's a proper bus terminal built for the airport (complete with a ticket wicket).

it boggles my mind why MT stll allows TTC to operate this route to Westwood, going on now 25 years and more! There's really no excuse anymore with all the added service along Airport Rd now and don't tell me they can't discontinue it, they did it to the 32 going over to the gateway postal plant. I'd like to know the revenue recovery precentage given over to MT by TTC. because I can assure you with all the fare cheating going into and out of Zone 3 and the service delays/operator assaults, etc,. because of it TTC is losing big time. The very fact TTC tickets and tokens are being used in zone 3 are already a discount for passengers avoiding the higher MT cash fare! Lastly, would it be an inconvenience to the 58B passengers? Maybe, so what. At the very least it would end much of the confusion for almost everyone about TTC vehicles operating outside the city of Toronto and all the fare hassles associated with it, and TTC could realocate those same vehicles as increased service/or not where needed within the city proper.
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At the very least it would end much of the confusion for almost everyone about TTC vehicles operating outside the city of Toronto and all the fare hassles associated with it, ...

You forgot about York Region :)
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You forgot about York Region :)

It's much more easier for MiWay to take over that small portion of 58 than YRT taking over all the TTC north of Steeles route at one time. MiWay has enough vehicles to take over that whereas YRT is still years away from having enough vehicles and operators to take back all the TTC routes north of Steeles.

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It's much more easier for MiWay to take over that small portion of 58 than YRT taking over all the TTC north of Steeles route at one time. MiWay has enough vehicles to take over that whereas YRT is still years away from having enough vehicles and operators to take back all the TTC routes north of Steeles.

One also has to consider ridership trends and percentages carried that don't ride into the next jurisdiction ... if most of the 58 customers or the YRT north of Steels route customers are heading into Toronto anyhow... then for them the hassle of the 2 fares may be less than the hassle of taking a MT or YRT route to the Toronto border then having to wait and transfer to another vehicle

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One also has to consider ridership trends and percentages carried that don't ride into the next jurisdiction ... if most of the 58 customers or the YRT north of Steels route customers are heading into Toronto anyhow... then for them the hassle of the 2 fares may be less than the hassle of taking a MT or YRT route to the Toronto border then having to wait and transfer to another vehicle

That's probably the main reason for maintaining some routes like the 58 and 160, even though they duplicate service on either side of the border. I'm sure if the TTC could get into Westwood via Finch or Morning Star they'd drop the 58B. As for the 58D to McNaughton unless it's a leftover predating the International Centre and the Malton GO station, wouldn't it make more sense for it to loop there instead? Speaking of which, I don't know how much traffic comes in to the International Centre by TTC, but having a route from Toronto (even if a second fare is charged) does make getting there more convenient.

Regarding YRT's eventual takeover of TTC routes, by the time the subway opens up to Vaughan, YRT should be in a position to take control of the routes operating in Vaughan. Their long-term plan is to run most of the TTC contracted routes themselves out of one of the stations along the new extension (Steeles West and Vaughan Metropolitan Centre).

Funny thing I just noticed, if you take the first three letters of Vaughan Metropolitan you get: VauMet or phonetically vomit. Wonder if they thought that one all the way through? :lol:

All this being said, the 107F to Kirby Rd. is the only routes that goes beyond the confines of the Ride Guide. I think YRT's looking into covering that segment with the 22. The 224D is one extension away from falling off the edge of the world as well if it doesn't get repatriated by YRT. I think the reasoning for the large coverage area of the map is to show (at least partially on a handful of routes) where routes from neighbouring agencies which enter Toronto go.

The Ride Guide was expanded when they introduced the GTA Pass, I guess as promotional material to show users where the pass could take them. At that point only Vaughan Transit, Richmond Hill Transit and Markham Transit were the only participants from York Region and then the only parts you couldn't see was the service to/from Oak Ridges. Mississauga and subsequently Brampton were cut off due to the possible connections at Clarkson GO with Oakville Transit. Durham Region in its various incarnations was never a part of the GTA Pass, hence its near absence from the map.

Now with PRESTO slowly making inroads into the TTC it makes more sense to have a regional map. Find more sponsors or have Metrolinx or the various agencies help pay for it. If you want to go the other way of making a Toronto-specific map, then perhaps going the way of the NYC MTA with their bus maps is the way to go. Each borough has their own bus map, but all are available across NYC. You don't have to go to the other borough to get the map. Have a Toronto, Durham, York and Peel (maybe Halton-Peel) maps. Passengers these days often commute beyond their own municipality. Being able to do so as easily as possible should be a goal and having the regional map is one way of reaching it.

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Now with PRESTO slowly making inroads into the TTC it makes more sense to have a regional map. Find more sponsors or have Metrolinx or the various agencies help pay for it. If you want to go the other way of making a Toronto-specific map, then perhaps going the way of the NYC MTA with their bus maps is the way to go. Each borough has their own bus map, but all are available across NYC. You don't have to go to the other borough to get the map. Have a Toronto, Durham, York and Peel (maybe Halton-Peel) maps. Passengers these days often commute beyond their own municipality. Being able to do so as easily as possible should be a goal and having the regional map is one way of reaching it.

I think you might be on to something here. Having a series of Metrolinx inspired maps might be the wave of things to come. All maps would share design specs (much like the MTA's own sets). Series could be: GO (minimal/no local services shown), Toronto, York Region, Peel Region, Oakville/Burlington, Durham, etc. You could also have overlap too, so the Durham map could also cover TTC into about Kennedy Stn for example, as you will have people crossing boundaries, and this would save the need for 2 maps for these customers (Maybe York & Toronto would have been a better example).

Getting production off of the hands of the agencies might be attractive to them as well, ridding them of that responsibility (save for providing information to the designer).

I could see a hired firm being responsible for making them, because they (Mlinx) doesn't have the resources in house to deal with it. A company like MapMobility (ex Dunmap) would be suitable, as they have the knowledge and resources of making many different transit-based maps. It'd be a lucrative deal too, I'm sure.

Am I biased? Sure, because I used to work there and made significant improvements to maps across the board. Plus the staff who still work for them and handle the transit maps really know what they're doing.

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I'd put the GO network map on all of the maps as well as providing a detailed full version separately. As for groupings:

1: TTC

2: YRT

3: DRT

4: Halton-Peel (MiWay, Brampton, Oakville, Burlington and Miton as an inset) They can split it the way DRT does their map with Peel on one side and Halton on the other.

5: Hamilton

There should be sufficient overlap for people commuting between adjoining maps. YRT's works well going as far south as Sheppard. DRT would only need to go as far as say Scarborough Town Centre. The Halton-Peel one could go as far east as Islington/Kipling with insets for the Brampton Züm service to York U and the Burlington services to downtown Hamilton. Hamilton's map by virtue of its Waterdown route already covers the Burlinton panhandle up to the Burlington GO station. As for the TTC, I'd concentrate it on going as far west as say Dixie, north to Hwy. 7 (once the subway opens) and its current eastern limit is fine.

Have consistent design across all the maps with consistent standards for identifying routes. They could go the MTA way and use prefixes (from west to east: H, Bu, Mi, O, M, T, Y, D + G?) to identify routes and have them all different colours as is the case for 905 agencies. If you prefer to keep the agency colours just use different shades. (Brampton and YRT would have issues) I like DRT's and the TTC's idea of showing where the GO routes operate, they just need to make a better differentiation of the services. By their virtue they're all express routes, but they don't all run all day 7 days a week.

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  • 3 months later...

The new Ride Guide was posted online over the day or so. It's come to be expected that these maps are released at the very end of their supposed release month.

Here's the nitpicker's list from the last map from June 2012. A means it's been dealt with on this map. (Hopefully the new symbol is better understood!) The Additionally section are mistakes/omissions new to this map. I'm sure there are a few mistakes/omissions I didn't catch as I'm not familiar with all the details of the map's coverage area. Working clockwise from the bottom-left:

MiWay

There is an 89 pointed box at the Airport Corporate Centre which doesn't indicate rush hour direction. The problem with this correction was that the 89 was replaced by the 87 during the summer. Now both the 87 and the 89 appear on the map but only the 89s have the rush hour directional arrows.

General clean-up/consolidation of the "upgraded" and now duplicated route lines: 53/65 on Central Pkwy., 1/4/38/44 at Dundas and Cedarglen and Dundas and Mavis, 45A/71 through Sheridan Park

The 101 and 201 as well as 107 and 109 should be included together in a single pointed box ( they are along Rathburn only) where each pair of routes shares common routing. (The TTC's 191 and 192 should too.)

The 110 and 109 on the 403 west of Square One are shown as two separate lines.

Should the seasonal 88 WONDERLAND route be shown? Identified as such that is.

The 91 is shown as limited beyond Hillcrest and Clayhill since it only runs to Cooksville GO on weekdays and to Dundas on weekends (indicated) and holidays (which is not indicated). The endpoint box at Dundas is not shown.

Should the 38A be shown? Obviously it'd show up as 38+ on the map.

The 110 box on Collegeway is not coloured.

The 19C is shown, but as weekend only instead of Saturday only which is the case.

The 11B is not shown. It isn't shown on MT's map, but it follows the 11A routing on the way to Islington.

The 19 is still shown running to Shopper's World even though it was cut back to the Hurontario & 407 carpool lot.

Should Pearson Airport get a Connection Point Box since it is served by TTC, MT, BT and GO?

The Square One terminal has been redesignated as City Centre terminal. It wouldn't make much sense in a GTA context, but should it be reflected here?

July service changes eliminated the 89 and 27 from Islington and replaced them with 87 and 43 respectively from the Skymark Hub.

The 19C is missisng from the Square One and Port Credit Connection Point Boxes.

There is still a 61+ pointed box on Mavis south of Central Pkwy. that should be removed or renumbered 91 (eliminating the other 91 immediately below it.)

The end point box for the 6 at Westdale Mall is missing.

The 8's routing around Square One is missing, plus there's I'm assuming a leftover rush hour route segment still running to the old terminal location on the south side of Square One.

The 53 is shown as both limited and rush hour between Matheson and Coopers/Traders, it should only be rush hour.

With the following map in the fall, would the Skymark Hub warrant a Connection Point Box? The 32A and 112D also serve it (although that's not acknowledged on Mississauga maps)

Additionally:

The 82 is still shown as 82+ even though at Islington only the 82 is listed.

There isn't a pointed route box for the 35+ anywhere between the Skymark Hub and Islington.

The 62 should have AM/PM directional arrows.

The route splitting of the 18 into the 21 and 24 is shown, but the route boxes for the 21 have the 18 included with them. The 18s should simply have been changed to 21s.

Also, the slight routing change to follow the 107's routing from the Viscount LINK station (doubt that or the LINK line would make it to this map) to Dixon via Fasken and Carlingview.

The 20's routing along Centre View is missing.

Since they're not acknowledging the Skymark Hub (probably not until the BRT opens) the 21, 24, 43 and 87 all need end point boxes there.

Should Huron Park Community Centre be identified since the 4 detours into it? The community centres which serve as YRT loops are identified.

Does Heartland deserve a place of interest identifier as well?

This is probably a leftover that's simply been updated over the years, but there's a MiWay logo at the Trillium West Toronto site which was used (even with the old Mississauga Transit logo) to denote service to Sherway Gardens. Either put a Connection Point Box there (and a few other places) or remove the logo just to be consistent.

Brampton Transit

Since Brampton Transit, MiWay and GO Transit alll stop at the 407/Hurontario carpool lot should it get a Connection Point Box?

The rerouting of the 2 onto Maritz is not shown.

The routing of the 502 Züm into Square One/City Centre is shown as Robert Speck instead of Rathburn.

Should Bramalea GO station deserve a Connection Point Box since it serves two different agencies?

The end point box for the 9 at Williams and Edvac is missisng.

The 35 is a rush hour route not a regular route. Its end point box at Goreway and Queen is also missing.

Additionally:

The 501 should be shown as running along the 407 from Jane to Keele following the 501A's routing into York University.

Probably due to space limitiations, the 50's one-way routing along Claireville isn't shown.

There are a handful of streets in the 410/Steeles area that aren't named despite having service on them.

The end point box for the 15 at Derry is missing.

The 5,5A boxes west of Airport Rd. should be shown as 5+.

I'm not quite sure what the rush hour route on Bartley Bull is supposed to be. I know there used to be a GO shuttle route up to Brampton GO, but that was axed a long time ago.

YRT

Why are only rush hour branches with express service highlighted in yellow? The other premium express routes should be highlighted as well. (It looks like the premium express routes are not highlighted) Why are only certain GO shuttles shown? They are shown (the ones you can see) in Mississauga, Brampton and Durham.

There is a route end point box for the 91B shown at Richmond Hill Centre (across Yonge St.), even though it's already listed in the Connection Point box.

The 224B should have a weekend only note.

General clean-up/consolidation of the "upgraded" and now duplicated route lines: shared routing along the 82/90 along Elgin Mills, 3/90 along Leslie and Don Mills and 82/90/90B through the Beaver Creek area.

The 7 routing on Steeles should have a "weekends only" note.

Shouldn't the 88E and 91E be included as + in their respective route boxes rather than shown separately according to the TTC rules?

The 8 is missing a terminal point box at Steeles and the 203 at Box Grove.

The Promenade, Rutherford GO could use a Connection Point Box.

July service changes especially through Woodbridge were missed with the June release date. The 10 in particular had a significant restructuring.

I don't think the Richmond Hill Centre (mall? plaza?) deserves a point of interest box seeing as the terminal is already identified there.

The weekend routing of the 20 is not indicated even though it's lumped with the 760 route box which also only runs on weekends. At least when Wonderland is closed, during Christmas break and probably during March Break.

The 91 south of Hwy. 7 is still shown as 91+ even though the 91B terminates at Richmond Hill Centre.

The 589 should be shown as counterclockwise, while the 590 should be shown as clockwise similar to BT's 32/33

GO no longer serves the Yonge St. corridor, so technically the Yonge/Bernard Connection Point Box isn't needed. (Its spot has been replaced by Richmond Centre)

The Viva routing along Enterprise Boulevard is incorrect, as the section between Warden and Birchmount should be on a dedicated ROW just north of Enterprise.

85B should have a rush hour line.

The combined section of 83 and 83A should be changed to 83+, though that now only applies to north of Hillcrest Mall

91B's routing in the Bayview Glen is wrong, it routes on Hwy 7 straight to Bayview, not up on Silver Linden and High Tech.

Additionally:

Missing an end point boxes for the 28 at Steeles & Martin Grove, 7 at Rutherford & Islington.

The 85A along Napa Valley should be limited or identified as weekday only.

Again, Woodbridge changes to the 7 (as well as the above-mentioned 10)

The 760 has been kept as weekend service instead of seasonal, so those labels should be dropped except for the one at Canada's Wonderland.

GO Transit

The 51 is shown as two-way along both the 401 and Morningside between Morningside and Hwy. 2A, but is shown as westbound only on Hwy. 2A.

The Downtown enlargement is missing the routes exiting the Union Station Bus Terminal. Plus it has buses running both ways on Lake Shore instead of using Harbour.

Adding the route branches would proably clutter things, but would match GO's information.

Route terminal boxes are missing on several routes which terminate at or serve locations that don't have a Connection Point Box. 51 at U of T Scarborough, 63 at Rutherford GO, etc.

The 45 and 47 are missing from the Square One Connection Point Box.

There should be another pointed route box for the 63 somewhere on its western routing from Union. The first one is at Black Creek beween Maple Leaf and Lawrence.

On the sectional maps aside from the 2 westernmost sections (1 and 4), the GO Bus routes are shown as thick solid lines, which I think is more appropriate than the express diamonds. The fact that most already run on highways would convey that they are express, but most routes run all day, 7 days a week.

Additionally:

The 40 is missing from the Pearson Connection Point Box.

All GO stations should be shown as Accessible except for: Long Branch, Mimico, Kipling, Bloor and Eglinton.

What's with the random display of branches? The 36B runs express between Bramalea GO and York Mills via Yorkdale. Because both terminals don't have Regional Connection Boxes the route seemingly disappears. The 65F is the end-of-day express trip from Union to East Gwillimbury GO. (?!) It'd be nice to show the various branches, but it'd get messy unless they switched from all express route lines to regular (for local trips) and express and properly identified where they all went. Otherwise stick with the core route numbers!

DRT

The 923 into U of T Scarborough is missing an end point box (which coupled with the GO 51 should necessitate a Connection Point Box, there's room in the east end for it!)

TTC

General clean-up/consolidation of the "upgraded" routes from the upgrades made last year.

The temporary removal of the 6A last year hasn't made it onto the map yet. It will make a return in September when the 6 gets extended to Sherbourne/George Brown/Dockside Dr., but not where it's currently shown.

The strip map route listing for Lawrence West and Eglinton stations seem to have been formatted incorrectly as the routes spill outside of the station boxes.

I presume the George Brown Waterfront Campus will make its debut in the November map.

Additionally:

I don't think the Union station construction will be over by next July, so shouldn't they show the detoured routing for the 72?

I didn't realize the 32A and 112D looped in opposite directions at via the Skymark Hub, but I guess due to space limitations it doesn't say which does what.

The 112C end point box should be placed closer to the north end of the loop along Disco instead of by International.

I don't know if it's just a resolution problem, but several of the black background boxes for the downtown stations and the Coach Terminal are too small, with the white text appearing on the pink map background.

General comments for the legend box:

BT has express (and according to the TTC, limited) routes and should be shown as such. The Züm service should get the same treatment as with VIVA.

The BT15A shown as limited service is barely visible on the map. Why not use the 31 instead? They could also use the weekday only 40.

YRT has other routes with rush hour and express service. YRT is the only agency where branch/lettered routes (the nature of the 2A is another matter) are used in the legend. They could use the 28 or 42.

The MT 89 has been replaced with the 87 even though both are still shown on the map. Perhaps they could use one of the 100-series routes?

I like the change of the column headers to red from the previous (Yellow Pages inspired/influenced?) yellow. It's very TTC.

General comments:

It would be nice if they showed the "BRT" (VIVA and Züm) stops. They don't need to name them, just show where they are. Should these be added as a 5th column in the surface route categories? You could conceivably include the streetcar rapid transit route in that column. The Transitway in Mississauga which should hopefully open for the November 2013 Ride Guide could spur that change since it will be in a ROW over most of the map's coverage area.

The transit connection point boxes could be placed along the side of the map along the York-Durham border just to them clean up a bit. If needed a grid reference for the boxes could be added with the box title. Otherwise, move the FSC notice and the Copywright to the top left below the Toronto.com ad to free up some space for additional connection point boxes.

With PRESTO gaining more traction within the TTC, would they consider expanding the map coverage, if only to create a little more room for themselves with all of the clutter in Lake Ontario? I know a westward expansion would show parts of Oakville Transit. Perhaps Metrolinx could get involved?

Until there's universal rollout of PRESTO, they should identify which stations are PRESTO-accessible on the map.

In a few years the subway extension to Vaughan will run into problems on the strip map, not to mention the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown line.

It'd be nice if they could add the other side of the Ride Guide. Granted the maps are available separately, but the other information isn't.

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Has anyone seen the new Ride Guides in circulation? What's one the cover?

A few more things I've caught with the new Ride Guide:

MiWay

The pointed box for the 5+ and 4 at Dixie and Queensway should only have the 5+ since the 4 only runs southbound there and should have it's own box reflecting that.

There should be some sort of box at Dixie Outlet Mall indicating that the 4, 5 and 5B stop there.

The 12 needs a directional arrow showing the routing along Bergamot Ave.

There should be an end point box for the 51+ at the south end, 51A at the north end, 59 at Infield and as well for the 17, 19B, 19C, 50, 53, 65 and 70.

Brampton Transit

The 501A Züm should be shown in full red since it runs all-day, 7 days a week now.

The pointed box for the 32/33 on Black Forest Dr. should be separated, though it's probably shown that way due to space constraints.

A pointed box for the through-routed 12 at Brampton Civic Hospital.

There are several end point boxes missing: 2, 7+, 14 (north end), 15 (south end), 15A (north end), 18+, 20, 40 and 50.

YRT

The 4A runs throughout the day on weekdays (AM rush hour through to PM rush hour). At the very least it should be shown as limited service.

The 3 and 88+ are missing from the Promenade.

In keeping with consistency, there should be a YRT symbol at Yorkdale and Downsview to indicate service there.

The 86 was removed west of Yonge St. and terminates at Richmond Hill Centre in the south.

The express routes at the Finch and Yorkdale transit connection point boxes are not highlighted (in keeping with the route boxes not being either).

More missing end point boxes: 4 (at Vaughan Mills), 7, 11, 18, 41, 85B, 90B, 201, 202, 203, 240, 242, 243, 300, 301, 302, 303, 522 and 589/590.

DRT

The 103 and I guess the 107 are missing end point boxes.

The 105D is not shown. Since it runs evenings and Sundays when the 107 isn't running you could throw it into the same pointed box with the limited service line or would that create what's shown on Kingston Rd. between Queen and Victoria Park -- combined regular routing service? If the 105D is included it will need an end point box as well.

GO Transit

Since we're a little unclear as to whether or not to show branches I'm not sure where this puts showing where a particular branch ends. There are only a handful of branches that end at stations on the map (Cooksville, Bramalea, Rutherford, Richmond Hill and Mount Joy).

The early morning and late night trips on the 18 to Port Credit and Clarkson (usually via Lakeshore Rd.) are not shown.

The routing of the 40 into Pearson is not shown.

On the Downtown map, the routing on the York St. offramp from the Gardiner isn't shown.

TTC

The Toronto Congress Centre and Trinity-Bellwoods Park should be shown as a places of interest.

Just to tidy things up a bit, I probably wouldn't show the rush hour routing of the 508 along the Queensway, just include it in the streetcar ROW. Put the 501 and 508 in a single pointed box and chalk it up to combined service.

The section of the Spadina line between Lawrence West and Eglinton West doesn't follow the centreline of Allen Rd.

They could probably shave a bit off the strip map at Kipling station.

On the Downtown map:

The St. James campus of George Brown is missing and the Waterfront campus isn't specified.

The Ed Mirvish Theatre is still shown as the Canon Theatre.

I'd include the Panasonic Theatre, Necropolis and possibly Honest Ed's as places of interest. Not sure how to depict Chinatown and Kensington Market.

General comments:

I know it's still a few years away, but for the PanAm Games I hope they go back to the format they used for World Youth Day where they coloured in the parks (in green obviously) and used the hospital symbol where appropriate (it'd eliminate the need to write "Hospital" at each location!). Unfortunately the Ontario Northland has ended service (and should probably be removed from the legend), freeing up a slot for Hospital.

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  • 2 weeks later...

The Fall 2012 Ride Guide will be in circulation soon with Downsview subway station on the front cover.

Funny that the "Fall 2012" Ride Guide gets released in "Winter"! What part of Downsview station? I think it's made the cover of the Ride Guide the most, I remember one with the bus terminal on the cover a few years back.

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  • 6 months later...

With the deadline for the contest to design the cover for the next Ride Guide set for July 4. I'm guessing that the new maps won't be available until the end of July at the earliest. This is supposedly the last Ride Guide to appear in it's current map design format with a new format being designed for the Fall-Winter edition at the end of the year. Let's hope they catch all of the bugs we've noted here, plus some of the service changes that have taken place since last November.

Assuming a roll-out of August 2013 (they're calling it Summer-Fall), what changes are expected to be in effect by then in the GTA that should be reflected in the new Ride Guide? My guess is that the DRT Pulse service gets the same treatment as MiWay express routes since it currently lacks the features of VIVA or Züm. Which aside from the highlighted route box may run into problems with the GO Bus service that's depicted. Some of the long-term construction and diversions that will still be around when the subsequent Ride Guide is released at the end of the year should also be included like the 509 and 72!

There are usually a bunch of changes come Labour Day, but due to the release timing unfortunately probably won't make it here (Mississauga BRT for one!).

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  • 6 months later...

What does everyone think about the redesign on the TTC website? I don't like how they got rid of GO bus routes, GTA systems routes and the routing of bus routes beyond the borders of Toronto. I also don't like that they don't show the grid of streets beyond the streets where there are TTC services. The only positive (perhaps) is that they now differentiate on the map between services that very frequent and other routes that are not.

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I've got mixed feelings about this upgrade. While I like to overall look of the map and it reminds me of the old Ride Guides from the early 1990s, I do have a few criticisms of the redesign, and I have filled out the redesign survey with these comments:

- The TTC should indicate where connections can be made to neighbouring transit systems such as DRT, YRT, Brampton Transit and MiWay. Specific routings are not needed, but the transfer points should still be marked on the map.

- I'm not keen on combining the rush-hour only routes with limited service routes. Almost all the other transit maps I have differentiate peak-period routes from the others, and the dotted line the TTC currently use would fit in perfectly on the new map.

- The tan-coloured 400-series community routes can be hard to see on the light-grey background.

- Though the road network on the map has been reduced to a clearer level, major highways such as Highway 401 and the Gardiner should still be marked on the map as a frame of reference. Is Sheppard Avenue north or south of that big highway, and by how much? I as a tourist would like to know.

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I don't know that using blue for express routes works. There's the connotation that it's a Blue Night route as with the bike racks and old accessible routes map which showed them as blue alongside the red day routes. Along with the express routes showing where they stop (at least during the express portion) would be useful. The 112E is also missing. It's not listed on the route schedule, but is in the route description for the 112 WEST MALL.

With the TTC about to embrace PRESTO, I find the timing ironic for doing away with the 905 agencies' routes. As tomsbuspage states they should at least go back to showing where the connections can be made with the appropriate logo. Perhaps grey route lines?

I also agree with the rush hour and community route comments.

The subway/RT routes should be at least 50% thicker. They look like the same size as the frequent service routes. Colour aside, shouldn't there be another distinction? This would work fine with the LRT line(s) that are being built.

Placing the routes adjacent to their route line looks a little sloppy, especially on the Eglinton section where you have pointer lines matching the route number to the route line. Maybe I'm just used to seeing them as some sort of bubble or box everywhere else.

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If you eliminate the street grid background at least label all of the streets that have service on them. There's no way to tell which minor street the bus turns on.

Where did all of the attractions go? It'd be nice as well if they plan on keeping this format to indicate parks to provide additonal reference points and break up the background.

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I- Though the road network on the map has been reduced to a clearer level, major highways such as Highway 401 and the Gardiner should still be marked on the map as a frame of reference. Is Sheppard Avenue north or south of that big highway, and by how much? I as a tourist would like to know.

Sheppard Ave is north of Highway 401. The distance between the two depends on where you are in the city. In the east through Scarborough they are approximately 500m to 1km apart. They get as close as 300-400m by Bayview and then the 401 dips south and is as much as 2-2.5km south of Sheppard in the west end.

I don't know that using blue for express routes works. There's the connotation that it's a Blue Night route as with the bike racks and old accessible routes map which showed them as blue alongside the red day routes. Along with the express routes showing where they stop (at least during the express portion) would be useful. The 112E is also missing. It's not listed on the route schedule, but is in the route description for the 112 WEST MALL.

I felt the same way about the blue for express routes. The 112E is essentially a school special for Michael Power Catholic High School, school specials are generally not shown on the system map (in fact I think 112E was the only one that is on the current map). There were 2-3 trips that ran non-stop from Kipling Station to the school. I'm not sure if these trips still operate since they were at one point listed on the schedule but are not there anymore. They often forget to update the route description pages.

Placing the routes adjacent to their route line looks a little sloppy, especially on the Eglinton section where you have pointer lines matching the route number to the route line. Maybe I'm just used to seeing them as some sort of bubble or box everywhere else.

new%20map06.png

The black pointer lines don't exist on the actual map, they are on that insert to illustrate how to read/match the numbers to the lines.

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They should have used the maps they have inside the garages. They're similiar to both Brampton and Mississauga maps.

GO Transit's internal driver maps (there's three - one for Lakeshore and 407, a second for Milton and Georgetown, a third for northern routes) are very similar to Brampton's system map in terms of look (graphics and use of different colours for each route) and insets for terminals.

I am in agreement that the blue colour for express routes is a bit problematic as it is in my mind associated with the Blue Night network - blue is still used on the TTC signpost route maps for the 300-series; the blue on surface stops still means night (or with red) 24 hour service. Why are really limited express routes like the 140-series (which are double fare) shown the same as the major 190-series routes? There's a big difference between the two.

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Since the updated map, at least based on the mock-up presented, will only cover Toronto, I hope they go back to listing where the routes that go off the edge of the map terminate. Will there be a route listing somewhere as well since they'll be eliminating the dead space on the map?

Is this map meant for display at shelters and in stations or will it also replace the Ride Guide? The current shelter and station maps are simply enlargements of the Toronto section of the Ride Guide.

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- The TTC should indicate where connections can be made to neighbouring transit systems such as DRT, YRT, Brampton Transit and MiWay. Specific routings are not needed, but the transfer points should still be marked on the map.

Agreed, The current ride guide goes above and beyond with mapping a bunch of routes, only routes that connect to the TTC should be marked.

- Though the road network on the map has been reduced to a clearer level, major highways such as Highway 401 and the Gardiner should still be marked on the map as a frame of reference. Is Sheppard Avenue north or south of that big highway, and by how much? I as a tourist would like to know.

This is my biggest beef. My geographic sense of where the routes are in the city is impaired with the new design. Major roadways should be marked.

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