New route 515

[dj.surf.lfs]

What needs to be promoted here is that this route runs all through Old Montreal, near Gare Centrale, a bunch of downtown hotels, the tourist kiosk at Dorchester Square and the bus terminal at Berri! It's a great service tourists, it just needs to be promoted more, and free would be nice. 10 minute intervals are a bit too much, especially at the beginning. 30 minutes on the half hour is still reasonable and allows 2 more vehicles to be used in higher demand runs.

I would also like to note that there is not yet a mention inside the Tourist Kiosk of this new 515 route, which there should be, since many tourists arrive here as their first destination.

Well, since the buses on the 515 looks exactly like any other STM buses, it's kinda hard for tourists to notice that it's a tourist route. Only the locals would realize that there's a bus running where they didn't used to. They should WRAP the bus in some kind of explosive advertisement, that way, people will easily distinguish the tourist route from regular routes. Other cities have done it so why not Montreal??

[Tranzit]

A 20-minute service for the 515 would therefore be a suitable compromise, and yes a more prominent display about where the bus is going is in order.

After a lifetime of using local public transport--not to mention in other cities as well--a minimum 20-minute service on any route is the "comfortable norm".

Half an hour is a bit much for anyone to have to wait, and especially given our often severe winters, nobody should be forced to stand and freeze for 30 minutes--shelter or no shelter!

Anyway, if they insist on running the 515 in winter, they will soon find it a waste of time and cancel it. Trust me.

[AlexLy]

Is this a new fully wrapped bus? and I believe you mean Eaton Centre shopping mall.

Yes, it is a fully wrapped bus for the EATON Centre.

[stm_5307N]

Here's a picture: http://blog.fagstein.com/2008/06/25/515-bus/

Nice! I'll have to hunt that one down.

[SMS]

Great looking wrap... looks like the Eaton Centre is looking back to the good old days of wraps! Too bad it is on a dumb route... I prefer the 21 and 23 senior shuttles to this boondoggle/disaster!

[mtltransitguy]

WASTE OF RESOURCES, WHAT A JOKE!!!

THE FUTURE TRAMWAY HERE WILL BE A DISGRACE TO THE WORLD!

It shows that we are desperate for tourists and couldn't care less about our own residents.

I for one enjoyed seeing the 515 in service yesterday. I was around Dorchester square all afternoon spotting the buses on this run, including even a Classic #15-121! As well as a few 2nd gens, and 17-049. There were maybe 2 people onboard each time, some had none.

The only problem I see is that the service intervals need to be changed, or they need to place this route in an area that needs more public transit. But the most realistic solution would be just to make it a direct free shuttle from the tourist kiosk to the Jacques Cartier Pier and back.

For the first day though, considering I only heard about this route from fellow transitfans, I think it brought a few curious riders onboard, but if it continues with this low ridership, then it's almost certainly going to be deemed a failure. They even had a CO posted at the tourist kiosk all afternoon making sure cars don't park at the 515 stop.

As for going slow, I have to admit that maybe this is sort of like a city tour type ride, and they are asked to drive slowly, because I saw this all day as well.

For the 515 R-Bus, or 515 (blank), this just means that the signs weren't programmed in. Some of the buses had a full destination programmed that said, 515 Vieux-Port.

What a joke. They didn't even have brochures out for it inside the tourist center.

This routes needs to be a la RTC and use a sort of MicroBus....NO MINI-BUSES.

And you know what, they removed the coblestone on De la Commune just for this!!! Travesty!!!!!

What I like was that it used mostly 1st gens HAHA!

And you know what else, the STM is the laziest transit system in the WORLD.

The only reason they uses 515, is because it's already in most buses signs.

The Luminators have all of the possible R-Buses ending in 5 programmed in, and so they just used that cause it was there, rather than creating a number that makes some sense.

That is why it displays 515 [R-BUS]---[ ] IT IS WAITING FOR THE NAME OF THE R-BUS TO BE PROGRAMMED IN!!!

Using a 500 number for this route is just about the stupidest thing the STM had done all year, and maybe for a long while.

I hope it gets cancelled just for that reason! 515...what a joke....

When I rode the 169 yesterday, the driver was talking with some guy from the STM or the union who is paid to go around checking out what service is out there.

The driver was complaining about many things, including the joke that is the 515, and how the STM created shifts that no one would take, like 3-5 am then 3-9pm.

It seems this guy's main job is to find out what the service is like, and he said this "THEY CREATE THE SERVICE AND THEY DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT THE SERVICE IS!!! *Insert french swear words*...THEY HAVE TO PAY ME TO FIND OUT FOR THEM!"

This is the height of stupidity!!!

We always knew the STM was full of crap, but this is the freakin icing on the cake of stupidity!!!

......

"And the award for the transit system with the stupidest administration, laziest ways, and worst maintenance plan goes to....the Societe de Transport de Montreal!!!"

I really can't get over how anyone can get away with running such a horrible system!

[Tranzit]

I really can't get over how anyone can get away with running such a horrible system!

Now, now...calm down.

I presume you have already purchased your one-way train ticket to Toronto?

To be sure, we'll be looking forward to your upcoming critiques of the TTC.

Happy Canada Day!

[M. David]

My brother and I rode the 515 today. On both of our trips, there were less than 7 people on the bus. I think the problem here is that the STM isn't promoting this route properly, and ridership is low as a result. If they begin to actively promote this route, then there is potential for the ridership to increase. I find this route to provide a useful link between downtown, Old Montreal, and the Old Port. Plus, it will be good for tourists, and those who work in that area. I know that some people don't think it's a great idea, but I think it is. In terms of promotion, I think the STM is taking a step in the right direction now, and here's why. Info STM in the Metro newspaper ran an article about the 515 today, and it mentioned that it is going to be promoted on the Metrovision screens, posters at Berri-UQAM and other places, and also on the Telecite boards on the Metro. Maybe this not the best way to promote the 515, but at least they're trying. Perhaps offering free service on this route for the first 2 weeks or so might have been a good idea. In addition, hotel concierges at the hotels along the route should be informed about the 515 so that they can let tourists know about this new way to get to Old Montreal and the Old Port. I had a chat with one of the 515 drivers today when my brother and I got off at Berri-UQAM, and I told her that this route was a great idea on the STM's part. She seemed happy to hear it, and promised to pass along my comments. I think the 515 has great potential for success, and if the STM promotes it properly, it might work.

Oh yeah, and the buses on the 515 today included 16-020, 18-003, 18-007, and 27-024 (the Eaton Centre wrap bus). Of course, there may have been more as well, but those are the buses that we saw. Their displays still read 515 R-Bus, but I imagine that will be recitifed soon.

[Matt Demers]

My brother and I rode the 515 today. On both of our trips, there were less than 7 people on the bus. I think the problem here is that the STM isn't promoting this route properly, and ridership is low as a result. If they begin to actively promote this route, then there is potential for the ridership to increase. I find this route to provide a useful link between downtown, Old Montreal, and the Old Port. Plus, it will be good for tourists, and those who work in that area. I know that some people don't think it's a great idea, but I think it is. In terms of promotion, I think the STM is taking a step in the right direction now, and here's why. Info STM in the Metro newspaper ran an article about the 515 today, and it mentioned that it is going to be promoted on the Metrovision screens, posters at Berri-UQAM and other places, and also on the Telecite boards on the Metro. Maybe this not the best way to promote the 515, but at least they're trying. Perhaps offering free service on this route for the first 2 weeks or so might have been a good idea. In addition, hotel concierges at the hotels along the route should be informed about the 515 so that they can let tourists know about this new way to get to Old Montreal and the Old Port. I had a chat with one of the 515 drivers today when my brother and I got off at Berri-UQAM, and I told her that this route was a great idea on the STM's part. She seemed happy to hear it, and promised to pass along my comments. I think the 515 has great potential for success, and if the STM promotes it properly, it might work.

Oh yeah, and the buses on the 515 today included 16-020, 18-003, 18-007, and 27-024 (the Eaton Centre wrap bus). Of course, there may have been more as well, but those are the buses that we saw. Their displays still read 515 R-Bus, but I imagine that will be recitifed soon.

Any event that takes place around the Old Port could mention you can take the 515 from Champ-des-Mars MEtro to the port! I think the number seems wrong for a route like this...name it a two digit route...like 59? 60?

[M. David]

Any event that takes place around the Old Port could mention you can take the 515 from Champ-des-Mars MEtro to the port! I think the number seems wrong for a route like this...name it a two digit route...like 59? 60?

Good point. I say that the STM should not break from tradition and assign 500s numbers to R-Buses only, with the exception of 545 and 555 for special shuttles. Hey, I hear 26 is available. Wonder if that would be an appropriate number for this route ...

[Tranzit]

An "appropriate number"--whatever that is supposed to infer--was probably deliberately not chosen because this new route is unlikely to survive for very long anyway, unless the STM promotes it more visibly and enthusiastically.

As such, a forgettable number like 515 would not be "missed".

It's too bad the tourist trade has dropped off substantially due mostly to the U.S. dollar exchange rate, otherwise patronage would be better than it currently is. There are definitely fewer people down there this year.

[SMS]

Here is the first standard planibus of the 515

http://stm.info/bus/planibus/515.pdf

[M. David]

Here is the first standard planibus of the 515

http://stm.info/bus/planibus/515.pdf

Okay, who can spot the two errors in the 515 map? If you've a good eye, you'll find them right away, just as I did.

Happy hunting .

[tristan]

Okay, who can spot the two errors in the 515 map? If you've a good eye, you'll find them right away, just as I did.

Happy hunting .

I found three,

1. The 535 is not a Train Bus

2. The 55 doesn't go to Berri-UQAM station

3. They forgot the 30 at Berri-UQAM station

[kellergraham]

Okay, who can spot the two errors in the 515 map? If you've a good eye, you'll find them right away, just as I did.

Happy hunting .

Three more:

535 isn't directional only...

430 isn't listed on Rene-Levesque

Doesn't show Route 935

[M. David]

Three more:

535 isn't directional only...

430 isn't listed on Rene-Levesque

Doesn't show Route 935

Good job, Tristan and KG! Geez, you'd think that the STM wouldn't make mistakes like this, but hey, accidents happen.

[Matt Demers]

Good job, Tristan and KG! Geez, you'd think that the STM wouldn't make mistakes like this, but hey, accidents happen.

If you like, email the STM and notify them about this and give credit to Tristan and Alex for finding it.

[TrueNorth]

If you like, email the STM and notify them about this and give credit to Tristan and Alex for finding it.

LOL... I agree that you should e-mail with credit. The STM/MTC should hire their I.S. not only based on skills but knowledge of the City. false information makes the City look bad to lost Tourists & Citizens alike. In reality just lazy/Bad cross checking by the Dept.

[M. David]

If you like, email the STM and notify them about this and give credit to Tristan and Alex for finding it.

Not a bad idea. I'll get to it shortly. Do you think they'll actually reply, though? Or care, for that matter? I mean, if you're going to print a schedule for a bus route, it should have the correct information printed in it. I remember finding a 54 schedule a few years ago that had all the usual stuff on the front and back, but inside, it was completely blank!

[TrueNorth]

Not a bad idea. I'll get to it shortly. Do you think they'll actually reply, though? Or care, for that matter? I mean, if you're going to print a schedule for a bus route, it should have the correct information printed in it. I remember finding a 54 schedule a few years ago that had all the usual stuff on the front and back, but inside, it was completely blank!

They should. If their ever going to be as user friendly as they are claiming to be in the modern world. I'd be surprised if we see the .PDF file amended before next seasons sked though. Probably were using the tourist route for training their green I.S. guy, as I don't notice errors on the daily .PDF(Planibus) Routes/files.

[M. David]

They should. If their ever going to be as user friendly as they are claiming to be in the modern world. I'd be surprised if we see the .PDF file amended before next seasons sked though. Probably were using the tourist route for training their green I.S. guy, as I don't notice errors on the daily .PDF(Planibus) Routes/files.

Understandable. Like I said, accidents happen. I remember looking at my 30 Planibus several years ago, and routes 150 and 545 were listed at Metro Berri-UQAM, in addition to the 15 and 30. The problems with this? The 150 doesn't stop there, and the 545 had been retired for years. When I called the STM (then the STCUM) and notified them of this, they thanked me and said they'd recify the errors. When they updated the schedules again, the errors had been fixed.

As far as the e-mail is concerned, it has now been sent out. I made sure to credit the correct people (Tristan and Alex) when I wrote it. In addition, I found a seventh error - new route 480 was also not shown on the map. Hopefully they'll be able to fix these errors in time for the next printing.

[Matt Demers]

As far as the e-mail is concerned, it has now been sent out. I made sure to credit the correct people (Tristan and Alex) when I wrote it. In addition, I found a seventh error - new route 480 was also not shown on the map. Hopefully they'll be able to fix these errors in time for the next printing.

Great, now let's hope they acknowledge your corrections.

[SMS]

Our buddy Steve Faguy wrote an interesting article on the 515 today in his blog:

http://blog.fagstein.com/

[SMS]

This line is totally ridiculous...

Alex and I rode the line in the late morning with lemon gen LFS 16-049. We got on at Berri and went to Dorchester Square via Old Montreal. One tourist got on with us at the metro and got off somewhere before city hall. The rest of the time we were alone. Wow! Great success! *sarcasm* This line is a total failure. Why won't they allocate these buses and spoiled drivers and make the 505 run all day in both directions?!

[mtltransitguy]

I have my own 515 story from Monday and Tuesday of this week.

On Monday I decided to go for a 515 ride to get a few quiet moments, rare thing during this time of year.

I got a 515 Planibus from the Berri Buffet, and checked the times, there was an Old Montreal bound 515 'leaving' in about 3 minutes.

I played tourist and followed the signs that indicated the way to "515 Vieux Montreal/Vieux Port/Centre-Ville", which led me straight to the kiosk at the corner of St-Denis and St Catherine, ACROSS THE STREET!

This is not where they should be telling people to go! It's a long walk for nothing, the St-Denis/UQAM exit is much closer from the inside and takes you step away from both flags ON THE CORRECT SIDE OF THE STREET!

When I finally get to the flags, there is nothing waiting, and after trying to figure out which flag I should be waiting at I decide to wait between the two, BAD CHOICE!

I see some lemon-box heading going NB on the other side of the park, and watch as it drops 2-3 people off right in front of the metro exit.

Now I would expect that the driver would pull up to her proper flag, and I would simply walk the few feet to the correct stop and board.

BUT NO!!! The stupid **** driver zooms right by without ever making a stop at either flag, with me waving my hands in the air as a sign of "WTF!?!" and her making a rude motion that told me "TOOO BAADDD! You weren't at the flag!".

People on board: 0! She drives off with an empty fire-hazard, one would think she would appreciate some passengers.

And the whole fact that I had no idea where the heck to wait for the bus, watched as she made no stop at any flag to indicate where I should get on, and then make no effort to help me and ask where I was going whatsoever, instead treating like scum really makes me cross. This is no way to treat a tourist!

So I wait for the R-L bound 515 since there is no way I am waiting another 20 min for the correct bus, and it too unloads at the metro, and I know that it should be leaving at 19:10, which I found out by checking the InfoBus on the flag after figuring out that the previous bus that left me in the dust was supposed to leave at something like 19:04.

For some reason I decide to walk to driver to make sure that he is going on R-L, since by this time I realize that anything goes on this route.

At least before the drivers would show up on time and have a L-O, so you would know which bus was yours, since it would be waiting at the flag, and you had time to talk to the driver and ask.

But with buses arriving whenever they want, and not waiting at the flags, it is impossible!

Anyways, so this driver parks it at the flag that I should have waited for the previous bus at, the flag closer to De Maisoneuve, and I know there is someone waiting at the other flag close to St Catherine, who is waiting for the bus I am.

When I ask the driver which way he is going, she confirms she is R-L bound, so I ask her if I can get on, and she lets me, but we are parked at the wrong flag! The other passenger is waiting at the correct flag!

When it is time to leave we simply zoom past the correct flag, leaving the other passenger in the dust this time!

I might have confused her, but that is no excuse whatsoever, the drivers of this route have nothing else to do, they could at least be on time and show up at the correct flags!

When I first boarded with her and asked if she was going to the Old Port via R-L, she told me "NO!"

I was like "excuse me?"

"No one can stay on my bus when I use the toilette!"

"Okay, I'll just get off and wait, geez!"

Now tell me then, what is the point of the R-L section from Berri to Peel, if people who are getting on there have to wait in the cold at the 'terminus' while the driver takes a leak?

Anyhow, I decide to cut my loses and get off in front of the Queen-E.

On Tuesday, I find myself once again going for a 515 ride, this time I think I have it all figured out, I will read the flags and make sure that I get the correct one!

But of course the 515 does not like it when tourists can ride easily...

Today I take the exit that I know is closer, and to my surprise they have a sign at the bottom of the escalator with 515 on it, so then why lead people to another exit across the street farther down than they need to be, yet also have a sign in the right place, but at a hidden exit with no other signage leading to it from the turnstiles? (Opie at Work)

I read the flags, indicating "Vers Vieux Port/Vieux Montreal" and "Vers Centre-Ville".

Tonight I am only interested in taking it to Peel as a quick ride across downtown.

Now logic would follow that the flag saying "Centre-Ville" would mean that bus leaving from that flag would go on R-L and the other flag with "V-P/V-M" would head down to De La Commune...

But NOOOOOO!

I board at the centre-ville flag, which happened to be the same flag as last night, and suddenly find myself at St-Denis and Viger!

Did I just miss something?

Of course once we get to the old port, the flags on our side of the street still indicate "vers centre-ville", which now makes sense.

But think it through and it makes no sense at all. No matter which direction you take the 515 from the old port will lead you downtown!!!

So the flags on the other side of street (closer to the water) indicating "vers vieux-port/vieux montrael", make no sense whatsoever!

If you are already in the old port, how can you be heading there?

The only place these two destination indicators on the flags make sense, is at berri and peel, where you have one way going on RL (centre-ville) and the other heading to DLC (v-p/v-m).

But they can't even get that right because my "centre-ville" bound bus took me to the old port, and the "v-p/v-m" would have taken me to Centre-Ville!!! WHAT???

I didn't check the flags out at the Peel end, but I would expect to also follow this backwards non-sense logic!

And you can't even figure it out by reading the next metro station, because both directions will eventually both pass by the same metros! IIRC both indicate that LLA is the next station! USELESS!

No wonder no one rides this route, it is virtually impossible to figure out which flag to wait at and which bus will go where.

And the "DIRECTION EST" "DIRECTION OUSET" indications in the FRENCH-ONLY planibus make no sense to tourists, who do not know the secret code that the direction means the direction on DLC.

Most tourists don't even know what DLC is until they get down there!

And good luck trying to figure it out besides the fact that it is in french only, and that the map is in two barely differentiable shades of blue.

They indicate the 'major stops' just as in any other planibus as time-points, but how does a tourist know "METCALFE/SQUARE DORCHESTER" is the Infotouriste and that the next stop being listed as "DE LA COMMUNE/BRENNAN" means this bus is heading to the Old Port next and not onto R-L and on to Berri?!?

What they needed to do, was continue printing full colour cardboard schedules, with distinct colours for each direction, and the same colours representing the time-points.

The first issue planibus done up in both languages and in this stlye was a 1000X times easier to understand!

They are treating this route like a regular service route, even though it is centered around tourists!

And guess what STM!?!?! The regular passengers, even those who use the rest of the system almost daily can't even understand how to use this route!

I cannot believe what an EPIC FAIL this route is!

What needs to be done for this route to make it rideable is simple;

Follow this Mantra:

TREAT IT LIKE A SPECIAL ROUTE!

• Give it's own flag! DONT CRAM IT WITH OTHER ROUTES!
  
• Make the flag recognizable! FORGET YELLOWISH-GOLD! GIVE IT A LOGO!
  
• Brand the buses! WRAP THEM WITH SOME SORT OF AD SPORTING THE LOGO!
  
• Use proper equipment! STOP WASTING 40' ON THIS ROUTE! (Future plan) Get some replica trolleys already, this is a tourist trap route, make it into one! DUPONT TROLLEY IS QUEBEC BASED USE THEM ALREADY!
  
• Get drivers that are more than drivers! REMOVE ALL THE RUDE JOYALE FRONTENAC PRICKS FROM THIS ROUTE! Instead find friendly informed drivers that can act as ambassadors to the city, and that know tons of info on how to get around and about the Heritage Sector and Montreal in general. Most importantly, make sure they are friendly and give the tourists the warm welcome they deserve, also they should be bilingual!
  
• Simplify the route directions! WE HAVE NO IDEA WHICH WAY WHICH BUS IS GOING! How about instead of displaying the name of the route like the rest of the system, display the direction in which it is going! [sUR RENE-LEVESQUE] [sUR DE LA COMMUNE] This is why you need good drivers for this, so that they care about what they are doing, and are not too lazy to press a few buttons and switch their luminators or crapios to the right direction
  
• Continuing from the previous point: Do the same with the flags THINK BEFORE PRINTING AND PLACING THE FLAGS! "Centre-Ville" and "Vieux-Port/Vieux-Montreal" are useless indicators, especially when they make no sense and the bus dosen't even head to where the flag says it is going. The flag should match the destination sign.
  

Well that rant pretty much sums up all the problems with the 515, offers some pretty damn good IMO ways to fix this route and make it work.

What does everyone think? I am highly considering presenting this to the STM in a more organized and concise manor.

The problem with this route is not that it shouldn't exist, it's that it's not being run in any decent form.

I will close by saying that if a route similar to this would be created in another city, I am sure it would be well done and done properly. This route was rushed and not planned at all, and it shows.

It was more or less "we need a route here, let's create a route, figure the frequencies, and toss a few buses onto it, it will take care of itself".