Council Debates Trolley System

[A. Wong]

Council Debates Trolley System

Feb, 28 2008 - 6:40 AM

EDMONTON/630 CHED - They've got the sharp pencils out at City Hall and are trying to shave $14-million off the budget. All of the sudden a debate about trolleys has reared its head. What they decide could make your property taxes go up more than first planned.

City manager Al Maurer says optimizing the use of the transit fleet will save a significant amount of money...millions. Councilor Kim Krushell is frustrated he won't say how much.

Councilor Don Iveson doesn't want to pick either diesel hybrid or trolley buses, one or the other --- in the name of cost savings --- until all the facts are in.

June is when the debate will happen but the city will need to find savings well before then. (kc)

Scott Johnston - Send Scott an Email now

[Modulator]

City manager Al Maurer says optimizing the use of the transit fleet will save a significant amount of money...millions.

Bull. This shows that they're using the same methodology as last time--the one that conveniently forgets you need to pay for diesel fuel.

[T6H-5307N]

There is a survey on the 630 CHED website today:

Do you think scrapping the trolley system in favour of hybrid buses is the right thing to do?

A: Yes, the trollies are too old

B: No, I like trollies

C: Are hybrids really any better?

Of course, the majority will probably vote A, simply because they know little about the trolley system (the trollies don't have to be old, we could simply get new ones...)

[M. Parsons]

There is a survey on the 630 CHED website today:

Do you think scrapping the trolley system in favour of hybrid buses is the right thing to do?

A: Yes, the trollies are too old

B: No, I like trollies

C: Are hybrids really any better?

Of course, the majority will probably vote A, simply because they know little about the trolley system (the trollies don't have to be old, we could simply get new ones...)

The intersting thing is that the perception is hybrid buses will be used to replace trolleybuses. That's not set in stone though.

This testing with hybrids could come back, and council will decided the advantages of hybrids aren't worth, and go with straight diesels instead of trolleys or hybrids.

That is unlikely though. Ironically, replacing trolleys with hybrids would be the most expensive option, between removing the overhead and purchasing a fleet of expensive, glorified diesel buses.

But, hey, who can blame them for wanting to save money?

Oh well, lets just get at it and get the future of trolley operations settled.

[A. Wong]

Didn't see the poll nor its results...

[captaintrolley]

Didn't see the poll nor its results...

I saw the poll earlier, but now it has mysteriously disappeared........Like the Transit Vehicle Evaluation Session

[dennis 37]

I saw the poll earlier, but now it has mysteriously disappeared........Like the Transit Vehicle Evaluation Session

Are you talking conspiracy?

[James]

well when i voted, keep the trolleys i like them was pretty much tied with the get rid of them.

[Esturk]

Oh great.. I hate this crap. I can't wait to see all the one sided and no brain comments in the paper and on TV. I wish one of us could get a slot on the news or something to get the real facts out. People are just clueless and listen to whatever crap is spit out.

[captaintrolley]

Are you talking conspiracy?

No, I'm talking mystery

[T6H-5307N]

There is a small article on trollies in the Journal today (on the back of the B section, I believe)

I found it amusing how they go on about "cost savings" we could see if trolley service were eliminated.

EDIT: Ghostrider has posted a scan in the BBC topic

[James]

as i said following ghostriders posting of the article in BBC's

Good for Don to stand up and at least try to give them a fighting chance. I don't see how it would save money this year when the city would have to turn around and by 38 more diesel buses to replace the trolleys. Plus by the time they decide this, the city would have already operated them for 1/2 the year so that means they have already speant 1/2 the year budget on them so it's too late to save that money.

[M. Parsons]

I don't see how it would save money this year when the city would have to turn around and by 38 more diesel buses to replace the trolleys.

Except that they probably have enough GM's sitting around, between the GM's parked at the Ferrier Tents, in the compound, and at Westwood which so far haven't been scrapped.

They might not need 38 diesels anyways. Peak book out is... what? 32 units? Plus 8 spares... those 8 spares can probably easily fit into the diesel spare ratio.

[James]

Except that they probably have enough GM's sitting around, between the GM's parked at the Ferrier Tents, in the compound, and at Westwood which so far haven't been scrapped.

They might not need 38 diesels anyways. Peak book out is... what? 32 units? Plus 8 spares... those 8 spares can probably easily fit into the diesel spare ratio.

Ah but they still have to spend the money to get low floors because they have a mandate for low floor service. So they run the Jimmies for another year or two and have to replace them anyways with Low floor buses! It may not be a today cost just might be a delayed cost. the fact is it is still there.

[M. Parsons]

Ah but they still have to spend the money to get low floors because they have a mandate for low floor service. So they run the Jimmies for another year or two and have to replace them anyways with Low floor buses! It may not be a today cost just might be a delayed cost. the fact is it is still there.

Yes? And? That's a moot point.

They are buying new buses either way, be it 40 odd diesels, hybrids, or trolleys.

It would be cheaper (but shortsighted) to buy 40 diesels at $400 000 each, or 40 hybrids at $650 000 each, than 40 trolleys at

$1 000 000 each.

The way you original post was, it seemed like you were implying they wouldn't be able to provide full bus service (ie have a bus shortage) without buying new buses this year to replace the trolleys.

[James]

The way you original post was, it seemed like you were implying they wouldn't be able to provide full bus service (ie have a bus shortage) without buying new buses this year to replace the trolleys.

The reality is that may be true, there having enough hard times making buses available for service!

[M. Parsons]

The reality is that may be true, there having enough hard times making buses available for service!

Are they? They seem to be doing OK from what I've seen. I don't recall anyone posting recently that they are running out of buses to use for c/o's, like we've heard in the past.

How is our mechanic shortage anyways? That could certainly part of the cause of any problems.

[James]

Are they? They seem to be doing OK from what I've seen. I don't recall anyone posting recently that they are running out of buses to use for c/o's, like we've heard in the past.

How is our mechanic shortage anyways? That could certainly part of the cause of any problems.

My understanding is they are still haveing vehicle shortages ocassionally. but that could indeed be because of the shortage of mechanics.

[M. Parsons]

My understanding is they are still haveing vehicle shortages ocassionally. but that could indeed be because of the shortage of mechanics.

That's partially what I suspect. They've opened Cromdale. They are storing buses AGAIN outside of Paterson, despite using 3 tents and the ramps at Ferrier. As well, Mitchell seems to be storing buses on the ramp, and likely Westwood is, although, GM's are taking up space as well. They seem to have enough buses, just not enough operable buses.

On a not so related topic...

Hopefully ETS is already looking at another garage after the SE garage. It seems to me that just between buses kept outside, The Tents, and Cromdale, and moving 10-15 buses out of each garage to make a bit more room, the SE garage will be full to begin with.

I would imagine that ideally they will be looking at moving more like 25-40 buses out of each garage.

Wasn't there talk at one point about a major overhaul of Westwood? I seem to recall hearing about this a few years ago.

[James]

Wasn't there talk at one point about a major overhaul of Westwood? I seem to recall hearing about this a few years ago.

I remember hearing about this too but fairly recently.

[captaintrolley]

Posting for 3 EVM's on www.edmonton.ca

Edit on Sunday: 6 EVM's now.

[dennis 37]

Posting for 3 EVM's on www.edmonton.ca

Any jobs for a Dotcommy?

[Modulator]

For the info of all: the due date for the report is June 18. I suspect council will send it to a committee, and there will probably be another public hearing, so it could be well into the summer before a decision is made.

The story from the Journal:

Trolleys' future may be off the rails

Susan Ruttan, The Edmonton Journal

Published: 2:31 am

EDMONTON - Edmonton's aging trolley buses may again be on the chopping block as the city manager hunts for ways to keep taxes from rising.

Al Maurer isn't saying for sure the trolleys are a target, but he lists "optimization of the transit fleet" as one way to save money this year.

Trolleys may end up on that "optimization" list, he told city council Wednesday.

"The trolleys are a kind of sitting duck," said Coun. Ron Hayter.

When council set its budget last December, it asked Maurer to find ways to reduce the 7.5-per-cent tax increase by two percentage points.

That means $13.8 million in spending cuts.

Maurer told council he hopes to get $7 million of that amount from the city surplus for 2007.

However, since the surplus is one-time money, he promises to find permanent savings to cover the other $7 million in future years.

Maurer proposes two ways to do that: transit "optimization" and convincing the provincial government to pay the full cost of running city ambulances.

Currently, part of the ambulance cost is borne by city property taxes.

He said eliminating the trolleys is one obvious way to get transit savings.

City council in 2004 debated whether to keep the aging trolleys.

A report at that time said the city could save $60 million over a decade if it switched from trolleys to diesel buses.

Council voted to keep the trolleys until at least 2008. A report on the matter is expected later this year.

Coun. Don Iveson said he hopes the trolleys aren't taken out of service without a proper review of what's at stake.

Maurer's plan to find the $13.8 million also includes using money from "education tax room" -- that portion of city taxes assigned to education taxes that may remain unclaimed by the provincial government.

Cities learn each spring how much education tax room they get.

sruttan@thejournal.canwest.com

Since most of the $60 million was one-time capital costs, I'm not sure where the city is planning to find "ongoing savings". Trolleys (at least, trolleys used effectively) cost less to operate than diesel buses, so expect another round of fuzzy accounting to show otherwise.

To wit, here are the operating costs that differ between vehicle modes, and what's wrong with the City of Edmonton's accounting:

Fuel/Power Trolleys are cheaper (much cheaper in Vancouver, but we pay more for electricity here, apparently) to power than diesels (and hybrids) are to fuel, particularly in urban stop-and-go service.

But the City has perpetuated Booz Allen's conclusion that fuel and power costs are the same--a conclusion that was wrong to begin with and assumes $30/barrel oil.

Vehicle Maintenance Trolleys are typically cheaper to maintain than diesel buses of the same age.

But the City compares fleet averages--which basically means 25-year old trolleys are compared to brand new diesels--and then projects current costs into the future. This means the city is looking narrowly at costs at one particular point in time rather than over the lifecycle of a vehicle.

Overhead Maintenance Costs are inversely proportional to how much service is provided.

But the City keeps cutting back at trolley service, artificially inflating costs. There's also the issue that the level of service Epcor provides is lower than in other cities, yet we pay more.

The City also likes to throw in a few more costs:

Deadheading Since trolleys have to take less direct routes to and from the garage, there's a slight additional cost.

But in most cases, it's because trolley runs are scheduled with enough time to operate in-service instead of express. As well, the costs don't add up--the figure the city supplies is high.

Training Since apparently all new operators get three days of trolley training, the City argues that it could cut back on the ETS training budget if we got rid of trolleys.

Can't really argue this one--except that it also comes back to how much trolley service we operate.

[A. Wong]

1 day before 6000 becomes 2242 again.

[Modulator]

1 day before 6000 becomes 2242 again.

Say what? I thought we had 6000 until June.