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Fantasy GTA transit maps!


urbanfan89

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The theory is that following the rail corridor is cheap and gets you to Sherway Gardens. (And all the other big-box-stores-in-the-middle-of-humongous-parking-lots.)

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, that's the rationale of using the hydro corridor alignment, it'd be relatively inexpensive compared to tunnel-boring underneath Dundas, Bloor or Burnhamthrope. And the land availability for parking spaces and bus terminals is there too.

The problem with this theory is that putting a stop where the railway crosses West Mall would result in a location infinitely less friendly to walk-in traffic than Kipling, Don Mills, or Downsview. The line would need to go under Sherway Gardens itself, to allow short walks to the condos at the southwest corner of the property, as well as Trillium Health Centre across the street. Oh, and the Tim Horton's.

No, not the rail corridor, the hydro corridor which runs approximately 200 metres south of it and near perfectly cuts through the West Mall/Queensway intersection. It's an ideal location to access the mall from and particularly the hospital.

It still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to replace the mildly busy 123 Shorncliffe, and the not-at-all-even-remotely busy 80 Queensway and 15 Evans buses with a subway. And there is precious little development potential in the immediate vicinity, as to the west is parkland and Etobicoke Creek, to the south is the QEW, to the north is railway and industrial land, and to the east is the immense 427/Gardiner/Brown's Line/Evans interchange.

There's nothing along Dundas Street between Dixie and Hwy 427 though. As a mobility hub, Sherway Gardens is an ideal location for some of the very reasons you cite. And thinking of preexisting development, the stops at Cawthra/North Service, Sherobee and Paisley could already generate subway levels of daily walk-in and transfer traffic. 5 Dixie is a very busy bus route, so it doesn't really matter where it connects with the subway, that stop will still recieve a lot of transfer traffic. That's why I use the southernly alignment to minimize the distance and time it takes to get to the Hurontario corridor, because that's where people in central Mississauga want to go most. If one were to check out a density map for Mississauga (people/square kilometre), density along Hurontario easily surpasses the apartment clusters along Bloor and anything on Dundas east of Cawthra.

Anyhow, I devised this as a clever way to justify a Hurontario subway without having to build a new line from scratch, and giving the Bloor-Danforth Line a greater purpose in the regional transit network than just mimicking the path of the Milton GO Line.

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Thanks for the feedback. Yes, that's the rationale of using the hydro corridor alignment, it'd be relatively inexpensive compared to tunnel-boring underneath Dundas, Bloor or Burnhamthrope. And the land availability for parking spaces and bus terminals is there too.

No, not the rail corridor, the hydro corridor which runs approximately 200 metres south of it and near perfectly cuts through the West Mall/Queensway intersection. It's an ideal location to access the mall from and particularly the hospital.

There's nothing along Dundas Street between Dixie and Hwy 427 though. As a mobility hub, Sherway Gardens is an ideal location for some of the very reasons you cite. And thinking of preexisting development, the stops at Cawthra/North Service, Sherobee and Paisley could already generate subway levels of daily walk-in and transfer traffic. 5 Dixie is a very busy bus route, so it doesn't really matter where it connects with the subway, that stop will still recieve a lot of transfer traffic. That's why I use the southernly alignment to minimize the distance and time it takes to get to the Hurontario corridor, because that's where people in central Mississauga want to go most. If one were to check out a density map for Mississauga (people/square kilometre), density along Hurontario easily surpasses the apartment clusters along Bloor and anything on Dundas east of Cawthra.

Anyhow, I devised this as a clever way to justify a Hurontario subway without having to build a new line from scratch, and giving the Bloor-Danforth Line a greater purpose in the regional transit network than just mimicking the path of the Milton GO Line.

The Queensway hydro corridor also has a buried pipeline (not sure if it's oil or natural gas), which could complicate construction/operation. Based on what I've learned about hydro corridors, operators are reluctant to operate over long distances through hydro corridors. Running along Dundas does allow for the potential densification along the corridor spurred by the subway. You could compromise (according to an earlier plan) by serving Sherway then running up to Dundas via Dixie GO station. It would by-pass most of the industrial/commercial segment of Dundas and serve the higher density residential segment through to Hurontario.

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Finch-Sheppard Subway:

"A" Train to Meadowvale

"B" Train to Scarborough Centre

Finch_Sheppard.bmp

Phase 1: Don Mills to Scarborough Centre

Phase 2: Sheppard-Yonge to York U

Phase 3: York U to Pearson International Airport

Phase 4: Brimley to Meadowvale

54F Lawrence East Express:

to Morningside.

54F.bmp

Input is valued ;)

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Finch-Sheppard Subway:

Input is valued ;)

Well, it's fantasy, but a few things that strike me as too fantastic:

  • Think seriously how interlining of Sheppard-Finch and Yonge lines could happen. Never mind that the Yonge line is currently running minimum possible headways, and ATO will reduce them even more, so where will S-F trains fit? Think about how this would get done physically, in terms of tunnel connections, radii, etc. The only way that what you are proposing will work is by building a parallel two-way tunnel. Interchange at Sheppard or Finch will be very problematic. Plus there's probably no space to put another subway under Yonge.
  • The west end stop spacing is unrealistic. After "Jane North" (is "Jane-Finch" too scary?) there are a couple of stops which will not be very useful, then the line zips almost non-stop to the airport.
  • A Pearson subway connection is nice, but I can't believe a whole lot of people would want to take a tour of northern Etobicoke and North York on their way downtown.
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  • A Pearson subway connection is nice, but I can't believe a whole lot of people would want to take a tour of northern Etobicoke and North York on their way downtown.
Why do you think that everyone from the airport is heading downtown?
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Why do you think that everyone from the airport is heading downtown?

I don't think everyone from the airport is heading downtown.

However, I am willing to bet that a transit link from the airport to downtown or midtown will have much more usage than a transit link that heads off to Belfield and Kipling and Jane and Finch.

If the Finch subway is the only TTC rapid-transit link to the airport, I would see that as horribly bad planning.

If there are other TTC rapid-transit links to the airport, then running the Finch subway out to the airport is probably a waste of money. Straight-line, I guesstimate something over 5 km from Belfield and Kipling to Terminal one. It's hundreds of millions of dollars per km of subway, and that stretch will be totally underutilized.

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I don't think everyone from the airport is heading downtown.

However, I am willing to bet that a transit link from the airport to downtown or midtown will have much more usage than a transit link that heads off to Belfield and Kipling and Jane and Finch.

If the Finch subway is the only TTC rapid-transit link to the airport, I would see that as horribly bad planning.

If there are other TTC rapid-transit links to the airport, then running the Finch subway out to the airport is probably a waste of money. Straight-line, I guesstimate something over 5 km from Belfield and Kipling to Terminal one. It's hundreds of millions of dollars per km of subway, and that stretch will be totally underutilized.

With the Pickering Airport a serious possibility, wouldn't this route provide a solid connection between airports? with a connecting bus at Meadowvale? The north-eastern part of the GTA (Markham, Stouffville, Pickering and north Scarborough) is growing quite rapidly, the Pickering Airport will increase the growth in that region.

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With the Pickering Airport a serious possibility, wouldn't this route provide a solid connection between airports? with a connecting bus at Meadowvale? The north-eastern part of the GTA (Markham, Stouffville, Pickering and north Scarborough) is growing quite rapidly, the Pickering Airport will increase the growth in that region.

At $300 million per km, that's an expensive way to create a really slow link between two airports, one of which is still a gleam in Transport Canada's eye. I would guess a subway/bus combination would take close to two hours. Yeah, way back when I rode the Tube in from Heathrow to downtown London and back again. It was interesting, but slooooow.

The problem of interlining or aligning the S-F subway with the Yonge and Spadina lines remains.

I'm also reminded that the Finch West LRT was going to to to Humber College, which is a major destination in NW Toronto. Way more than "Etobicoke North", which I assume is the GO station at Kipling and Belfield. There's nothing around there but a Home Depot and some large highway interchanges.

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The north-eastern part of the GTA (Markham, Stouffville, Pickering and north Scarborough) is growing quite rapidly, the Pickering Airport will increase the growth in that region.

Our growth (outskirts of Markham) is restricted to surburban growth, meaning new subdivisions and mostly houses. Houses do not need subways.

The Pickering Airport is up in the air...there's a lot of fuss from Cornell. I can see why - who'd want to live in an area where you can hear airplanes night and day?

I don't think everyone from the airport is heading downtown.

However, I am willing to bet that a transit link from the airport to downtown or midtown will have much more usage than a transit link that heads off to Belfield and Kipling and Jane and Finch.

If the Finch subway is the only TTC rapid-transit link to the airport, I would see that as horribly bad planning.

If there are other TTC rapid-transit links to the airport, then running the Finch subway out to the airport is probably a waste of money. Straight-line, I guesstimate something over 5 km from Belfield and Kipling to Terminal one. It's hundreds of millions of dollars per km of subway, and that stretch will be totally underutilized.

I agree with your concerns. We need to look at demand patterns into/away from the airport. The 409 was constructed for a reason.

Anyways, to the map. Interlining is a big issue (timing, mostly, but platform use as well). How do you stop at Finch, Sheppard-Yonge, Spadina line stations, etc. if you're switching lines there?

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The Pickering Airport is up in the air...there's a lot of fuss from Cornell. I can see why - who'd want to live in an area where you can hear airplanes night and day?

*waves both hands up in the air*

If Pickering Airport is open, I'm for sure moving away from my house in Cornell. I agree that YYZ needs another airport, but Pickering isn't the best of places to put it.

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*waves both hands up in the air*

If Pickering Airport is open, I'm for sure moving away from my house in Cornell. I agree that YYZ needs another airport, but Pickering isn't the best of places to put it.

Given YYZ has twin runways and carries the same number of passengers as (single-runwayed) London Gatwick, I'd say there is plenty of scope for expansion. Perason could handle doublethe number of passengers it does at present (with new/expanded terminals and larger average plane size).

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Finch-Sheppard Subway:

Input is valued :lol:

The simplest way to align a subway along Finch with the Sheppard Line is to extend Sheppard west of Yonge, past Downsview in a straight line to Keele/Sheppard. From there route the subway through Northwood Park (Black Creek valley) to Jane-Finch then west along Finch from there in an open cut (trench). I'd recommend stops only at Weston (Emery), Milvan, Islington (Gracedale), Albion, and Martin Grove (Elmbank). Approaching Martin Grove, tunnel the line through the parkland til Humber College Blvd. Near Hwy 27 have the line run elevated with a stop providing access to the hospital and Humber College. The terminus could be the Woodbine Centre/Racetrack, which strategically is very close to Westwood Mall (regional transit hub) and Pearson Airport via the 427 and 409 for express buses.

For rapid transit parallel the section of Finch West east of Jane, just extend the BRT busway west of Sentinel and east of Dufferin to Finch Stn.

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The simplest way to align a subway along Finch with the Sheppard Line is to extend Sheppard west of Yonge, past Downsview in a straight line to Keele/Sheppard. From there route the subway through Northwood Park (Black Creek valley) to Jane-Finch then west along Finch from there in an open cut (trench). I'd recommend stops only at Weston (Emery), Milvan, Islington (Gracedale), Albion, and Martin Grove (Elmbank). Approaching Martin Grove, tunnel the line through the parkland til Humber College Blvd. Near Hwy 27 have the line run elevated with a stop providing access to the hospital and Humber College. The terminus could be the Woodbine Centre/Racetrack, which strategically is very close to Westwood Mall (regional transit hub) and Pearson Airport via the 427 and 409 for express buses.

I'm not sure there's any reason for a stop at Milvan. On the other hand, Keele-Jane-Weston-Islington is a 2 km stop spacing and you'll need buses for local service.

One stop is going to have a really hard time serving both Etobicoke General and Humber College. They are quite far apart, not to mention separated by a busy highway. Humber College gets tons of student traffic, but optimizing the station location for students means the hospital is too much of a hike.

I think we want to be careful creating all sorts of hubs (Woodbine Centre, Westwood, the airport, Humber College). That reminds me of west-end Ottawa, where Carlingwood mall was a "major hub" a short distance away from Lincoln Fields "major hub" which was pretty close to Bayshore "major hub". This meant that buses spent a lot of time ducking in an out of all the "major hubs" that were vaguely on their route. Thankfully, Toronto mostly avoids this.

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  • 2 weeks later...
The simplest way to align a subway along Finch with the Sheppard Line is to extend Sheppard west of Yonge, past Downsview in a straight line to Keele/Sheppard. From there route the subway through Northwood Park (Black Creek valley) to Jane-Finch then west along Finch from there in an open cut (trench). I'd recommend stops only at Weston (Emery), Milvan, Islington (Gracedale), Albion, and Martin Grove (Elmbank). Approaching Martin Grove, tunnel the line through the parkland til Humber College Blvd. Near Hwy 27 have the line run elevated with a stop providing access to the hospital and Humber College. The terminus could be the Woodbine Centre/Racetrack, which strategically is very close to Westwood Mall (regional transit hub) and Pearson Airport via the 427 and 409 for express buses.

For rapid transit parallel the section of Finch West east of Jane, just extend the BRT busway west of Sentinel and east of Dufferin to Finch Stn.

I was thinking of something along the same lines. If you really wanted to serve York U with this line, then extend it west to Downsview and then piggyback with the Spadina line up to York U. It could then turn back south to Finch and run along there to Hwy. 27, then south to Rexdale and serve Woodbine. In my fantasy (which I should really get around to posting here) Malton would get upgraded into a Regional Transit Hub and have some sort of People Mover run straight down Airport Rd. into Pearson rather than building a station from scratch at Woodbine and then weave through/around the 409/427 interchange. The Finch-Sheppard line would end there at Malton. I'm thinking more of a model similar to JFK's connection to Jamaica on Long Island, which essentially distributes passengers across the entire region rather than funnelling them downtown.

As for the station at Humber College Blvd. cost realities will probably dictate that only one station gets built there rather than two. So optimizing the location would mean placing the station halfway between Humber College and Etobicoke General. Both will probably develop the access corridor from the station to their respective properties.

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Some TTC Routes are in dire need of an express branch, For example 25 Don Mills, I created this map, courtesy to Google Maps,

25E Don Mills to Seneca College

http://goo.gl/maps/mK73n

(Sorry for bumping an old topic :P)

(Also sorry for bumping an old topic!)

I also think 25 Don Mills would make an excellent candidate for an Express branch. Why do you have the route start at Concord Place, though? I'm not familiar with the area. I'd have thought it starting from Pape would be a good idea.

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Some TTC Routes are in dire need of an express branch, For example 25 Don Mills, I created this map, courtesy to Google Maps,

25E Don Mills to Seneca College

http://goo.gl/maps/mK73n

(Sorry for bumping an old topic :P)

The way traffic is on the 25 route not much time savings would be made from having an Express branch.

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