Fantasy GTA transit maps!

[gricer1326]

18 minutes ago, Streety McCarface said:

I'm thinking Gunns loop for Dufferin, or Dufferin Subway station. Castle Frank is really underutilized, I think it would greatly benefit from a streetcar line serving it. Also, I forgot to mention Sherborne, Ossington, and Bay Street, Front/Wellington as potential corridors as well. I'm also looking at Gerrard, Wellesley/Harbord, Richmond/Allendale loop, and Dupont as other potential corridors. Downtown is booming and I believe that by putting public transit first, it will be a safer area.

Why Gunns? Earlscourt would be a hell of a lot closer. Dufferin Station would still be the better option though. 

I can see Bay being a streetcar route. Again, lot of construction required for it, especially connecting it to Union. Not sure about the others. The TTC has long proposed building a streetcar line along Fort York/Bremner Boulevard, which I think would be a tad more useful than a Front route. 

I wouldn't worry about the safety of downtown -- Toronto is already the safest city in North America, and downtown even more so. If you want to improve safety/decrease crime, I'd focus on the suburbs, cause that's where a lot of quality of life issues arise. 

[Streety McCarface]

3 minutes ago, gricer1326 said:

Why Gunns? Earlscourt would be a hell of a lot closer. Dufferin Station would still be the better option though. 

I can see Bay being a streetcar route. Again, lot of construction required for it, especially connecting it to Union. Not sure about the others. The TTC has long proposed building a streetcar line along Fort York/Bremner Boulevard, which I think would be a tad more useful than a Front route. 

I wouldn't worry about the safety of downtown -- Toronto is already the safest city in North America, and downtown even more so. If you want to improve safety/decrease crime, I'd focus on the suburbs, cause that's where a lot of quality of life issues arise. 

Very true indeed. 

[gricer1326]

As long as we're talking about streetcar maps, I figure I might as well post one of mine. Reading it should be pretty intuitive, but in case it's not here's a legend: Red for streetcar routes, Blue for trolley bus routes, light blue and pink lines are non-revenue mileage for their respective systems.

This map does not take into account the DRL (although it does take into account the FWLRT/Line 6, how about that eh?). I will probably be making one that does in the future. 

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1ixZON9hAByDUlffD8HQv-_xqEXk

[Streety McCarface]

16 minutes ago, gricer1326 said:

As long as we're talking about streetcar maps, I figure I might as well post one of mine. Reading it should be pretty intuitive, but in case it's not here's a legend: Red for streetcar routes, Blue for trolley bus routes, light blue and pink lines are non-revenue mileage for their respective systems.

This map does not take into account the DRL (although it does take into account the FWLRT/Line 6, how about that eh?). I will probably be making one that does in the future. 

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1ixZON9hAByDUlffD8HQv-_xqEXk

I'm really liking the extensions by the portlands. The proposed trolleybus corridors downtown are  excellent ideas, however, I believe that the downtown sections of Ossington, Dufferin, and Landsdown should be streetcars south of Bloor (and potentially St. Clair) for capacity reasons. Toronto definitely needs more trolley bus lines, especially along heavily used corridors like Steels, but in areas where density doesn't warrant a streetcar. Good job overall. 

[409 Thornton]

Ajax LRT

https://drive.google.com/open?id=15Oq_G2jeCthlgCJtFGPBdrUJnD8&usp=sharing

Line 1 - Harwood via Clements and old rail lines through industrial areas 

- Peak: every 7 minutes

- Midday/Evening: every 15 minutes 

- Weekday Late Evening (after 10 pm): every 30 minutes 

- Weekend/Holiday: every 30 minutes 

- Weekend/Holiday Late Night (after 10 pm): every 60 minutes.

Line 2 - Westney via Hunt and Falby Court

- Peak: every 7 minutes

- Midday/Evening: every 15 minutes 

- Weekday Late Evening (after 10 pm): every 30 minutes 

- Weekend/Holiday: every 30 minutes 

- Weekend/Holiday Late Night (after 10 pm): every 60 minutes.

Line 2A - Westney North/Ajax GO

Peak: every 15 minutes 

Line 3 - Squires Beach via old rail line betweenSquires Beach and Brock Road

Peak: every 30 Minutes 

Midday: every 60 Minutes 

Evening til 10 PM: every 60 minutes 

[409 Thornton]

11 hours ago, 110B West Pickering said:

Cant view, need to make the google link public

Try now

Light Rail might be the only answer to the traffic problems plaguing Ajax, specifically Bayly, Salem and Westney. Buses to feed it will increase it's success. It's evident that people who work locally, are the ones that clog the main corridors in Ajax, travelling between industrial areas in the south and the residential developments in the north, bypassing the GO station, where most bus routes terminate. Buses are just simply not enough to curb the habit of driving. 

[409 Thornton]

5 minutes ago, 110B West Pickering said:

A think a Durham wide LRT would benifit, I would have a Harwood, Westney, Taunton, simcoe, and Highway 2

I'll draw a map

Well, with the current projects in place, and with such a vast amount of ground to cover, BRT might be a more cost-effective solution, bus transit is already popular on Highway 2, and Taunton, just have deploy more buses on those routes, and establish a solid regional route along the baseline (Bayly/Victoria/Bloor)

[GORDOOM]

On 2016-08-25 at 6:37 PM, gricer1326 said:

I could go for Dufferin [as a new streetcar corridor] as it's got the highest ridership of the three corridors you mentioned but you'd have to build a lot of track and probably an off-street surface terminal at Bloor. Now that Kent P.S. is surplus and up for sale there's definitely available land, but it would be a really expensive corner to build on for sure (unless you sell the air rights like at 45 Bay but whatever). A lot of passengers on Dufferin also tend to be travelling long-distance to destinations on or near Dufferin itself so splitting the route at Bloor (or anywhere else) may not serve that need too well at all. TL;DR cost/benefit doesn't look great due to the amount of construction needed and the nature of ridership may not support such a project. 

Given the extreme volume of ridership on that corridor, though, do you think that it might be the one route that makes sense to convert to a streetcar (as in, all the way north to Wilson station) simply to be able to use higher-capacity vehicles? If you did that, you could use on-street turning loops at Bloor and Eglinton for short-turns, and putting a streetcar loop at Wilson Complex would be easy.

(wow, that's almost necro-ing now that I look again!)

Edited December 23, 2016 by GORDOOM

[gricer1326]

On 12/23/2016 at 2:39 PM, GORDOOM said:

Given the extreme volume of ridership on that corridor, though, do you think that it might be the one route that makes sense to convert to a streetcar (as in, all the way north to Wilson station) simply to be able to use higher-capacity vehicles? If you did that, you could use on-street turning loops at Bloor and Eglinton for short-turns, and putting a streetcar loop at Wilson Complex would be easy.

(wow, that's almost necro-ing now that I look again!)

For that purpose yes, however given the extreme amounts of cynicism and suspicion most of the population has when it comes to transit spending in this city, and just as much the lack of political will to do anything about it, that would be one hell of an undertaking. Especially building on-street loops for short turns, can you imagine the NIMBYism that would result from such a project? 

Obviously it would be a hell of a lot easier if the 29 was split in half south of Bloor but unfortunately it's not and there are way more through-riders on Dufferin than Bathurst which reduces the attractiveness of the split. In fact when the TTC was studying possibilities for new streetcar routes in the 90s I believe they kiboshed Dufferin south of Bloor for that (among other) reason(s). 

All in all I think a more useful solution for Dufferin, and a more achievable, less intrusive one would be to use articulated trolleybuses that can accelerate faster and climb the route's many hills easier. At least for now. Eventually I would for sure hope to see track along the street's entire length, but for now I can't see such a thing being realistic.

[gricer1326]

On 12/22/2016 at 1:01 PM, 409 Thornton said:

Line 3 - Squires Beach via old rail line betweenSquires Beach and Brock Road

Peak: every 30 Minutes 

Midday: every 60 Minutes 

Evening til 10 PM: every 60 minutes 

30 minute frequencies seem really low for such a short route. Considering how much existing track it uses would I be correct in assuming it runs with DLRVs?

[J. Bullock]

On 12/23/2016 at 5:54 PM, gricer1326 said:

30 minute frequencies seem really low for such a short route. Considering how much existing track it uses would I be correct in assuming it runs with DLRVs?

Consider the ridership that it would possibly garner. 30 minutes is more than enough to start out.

[gricer1326]

4 minutes ago, J. Bullock said:

Consider the ridership that it would possibly garner. 30 minutes is more than enough to start out.

At that point I can't help thinking that making it a rail service is a little overkill. 

[J. Bullock]

Just now, gricer1326 said:

At that point I can't help thinking that making it a rail service is a little overkill. 

"Fantasy GTA Transit Maps", pick and choose your points to fixate on.

[gricer1326]

28 minutes ago, J. Bullock said:

"Fantasy GTA Transit Maps", pick and choose your points to fixate on.

Just cause it's a fantasy map thread doesn't mean we should be dreaming up proposals that are unreasonable enough to get laughed out of a planning department. Sure we all want a service that runs to our front door (so to speak), but how does that fit into the big picture? What's the point of making the suggestion if the resources to do it aren't available or can't be allocated without negatively impacting existing service?

Transit planning is about more than just drawing lines on a map. 

[Streety McCarface]

1 hour ago, gricer1326 said:

Just cause it's a fantasy map thread doesn't mean we should be dreaming up proposals that are unreasonable enough to get laughed out of a planning department. Sure we all want a service that runs to our front door (so to speak), but how does that fit into the big picture? What's the point of making the suggestion if the resources to do it aren't available or can't be allocated without negatively impacting existing service?

Transit planning is about more than just drawing lines on a map. 

If there's an existing rail corridor, it could be the potential for some redevelopment with an inexpensive catalyst. 

[gricer1326]

20 minutes ago, Streety McCarface said:

If there's an existing rail corridor, it could be the potential for some redevelopment with an inexpensive catalyst. 

Actually it would be a very expensive catalyst. Building stations, upgrading track, buying vehicles and running those vehicles near-empty for years wouldn't exactly be a cheap way to spur redevelopment. Besides a lot of that industrial land looks like it's seeing industrial use and I can't find any official plans to redevelop the area online. Perhaps you guys know more about it than I do, so if that's the case I'd like to get my hands on that info. 

Now it could be the case that part of 409 Thornton's fantasy plan is to have that area redeveloped by the time trains start running but I didn't see them mention it. 

[409 Thornton]

On 12/23/2016 at 5:54 PM, gricer1326 said:

30 minute frequencies seem really low for such a short route. Considering how much existing track it uses would I be correct in assuming it runs with DLRVs?

Line 3 would interline with Line 2A during rush and Line 1 during midday times. 

 

On 12/24/2016 at 11:21 PM, gricer1326 said:

At that point I can't help thinking that making it a rail service is a little overkill. 

Transit has to be convenient in order to get people out of their cars. Local traffic along Bayly, Westney and Salem is extremely congested during peak times, Line 2A and 3 tackle those traffic issues by offering direct connections between the large industrial area of south Pickering to GO transit and Highway 2 Pulse. Line 1 would be a success at all times of the day. Transit is already quite busy on Harwood Avenue, specifically between Clover Ridge and Highway 2. Line 1 would eliminate the transfer to continue north at Hunt, while also providing a direct connection to GO Transit.  

 

On 12/24/2016 at 11:57 PM, gricer1326 said:

Just cause it's a fantasy map thread doesn't mean we should be dreaming up proposals that are unreasonable enough to get laughed out of a planning department. Sure we all want a service that runs to our front door (so to speak), but how does that fit into the big picture? What's the point of making the suggestion if the resources to do it aren't available or can't be allocated without negatively impacting existing service?

Transit planning is about more than just drawing lines on a map. 

Using existing rail corridors in Central Ajax area would have a lesser impact during construction times, compared to running down the middle of the road. 

The intersection of Fairall and Westney would have to be retrofitted to accommodate Light Rail vehicles operating in mixed traffic.

Westney and Harwood both have wide medians, which can be modified to accommodate streetcars and/or LRT on dedicated lanes, so they make perfect corridors to link to the rail lines. Ajax has many old rail lines that weave through town. Getting approval however, to use these lines may be more difficult than what I expect. 

LRV's can start at 40-45 feet in length, with some 80 footers to the crunch trips between 6-8AM and 4-6PM 

[409 Thornton]

Bus service would then be overhauled to serve as feeder routes for LRT, as opposed to being feeder routes for the GO. 

Limited Express routes would continue to operate out of Ajax GO. 

- 251 Salem Express to Taunton via Achilles and Gillett

- 252 Audley South Express to Ashbury via Bayly

- 255 Audley North Express to Rushworth via Kingston Road

 

 

 

[gricer1326]

13 hours ago, 409 Thornton said:

Transit has to be convenient in order to get people out of their cars. Local traffic along Bayly, Westney and Salem is extremely congested during peak times, Line 2A and 3 tackle those traffic issues by offering direct connections between the large industrial area of south Pickering to GO transit and Highway 2 Pulse. Line 1 would be a success at all times of the day. Transit is already quite busy on Harwood Avenue, specifically between Clover Ridge and Highway 2. Line 1 would eliminate the transfer to continue north at Hunt, while also providing a direct connection to GO Transit.  

Fair enough. Admittedly I'm not that familiar with travel patterns in Ajax so I'll take your word for it that each of those corridors is busy.

That being said, are they busy enough to warrant a rail service? Both corridors at once, even when they're only about 1.25 km apart in most places? The TTC LRT lines are at least 4 km apart and they have way higher ridership than anything in Durham. 

Also I took the median average of the distance between all the stations you have planned and it's only 378.5 m. Light rail really shouldn't be stopping any more than 450 m, especially not in low-density suburbs, otherwise you might as well put it in mixed traffic and call it a streetcar. Would that be more convenient than improving the bus service that already exists and through-routing it to the industrial areas you intend to serve? Unless buses aren't able to handle passenger loads (an unlikely scenario given that none of them run at a frequency in excess of 15 minutes), I'd say probably not.

Getting approval for such a cost-ineffective project would be nearly impossible, as it should be. 

[FurryRider]

8 hours ago, gricer1326 said:

Fair enough. Admittedly I'm not that familiar with travel patterns in Ajax so I'll take your word for it that each of those corridors is busy.

That being said, are they busy enough to warrant a rail service? Both corridors at once, even when they're only about 1.25 km apart in most places? The TTC LRT lines are at least 4 km apart and they have way higher ridership than anything in Durham. 

Also I took the median average of the distance between all the stations you have planned and it's only 378.5 m. Light rail really shouldn't be stopping any more than 450 m, especially not in low-density suburbs, otherwise you might as well put it in mixed traffic and call it a streetcar. Would that be more convenient than improving the bus service that already exists and through-routing it to the industrial areas you intend to serve? Unless buses aren't able to handle passenger loads (an unlikely scenario given that none of them run at a frequency in excess of 15 minutes), I'd say probably not.

Getting approval for such a cost-ineffective project would be nearly impossible, as it should be. 

I will be proposing a Mississauga-Brampton-Toronto-Durham Express LRT on my TorontoTransitBlog and SmarterTracks websites - The line will provide a rapid east-west option that can be extended as demand justifies

[409 Thornton]

On 12/28/2016 at 2:15 AM, gricer1326 said:

Fair enough. Admittedly I'm not that familiar with travel patterns in Ajax so I'll take your word for it that each of those corridors is busy.

That being said, are they busy enough to warrant a rail service? Both corridors at once, even when they're only about 1.25 km apart in most places? The TTC LRT lines are at least 4 km apart and they have way higher ridership than anything in Durham. 

Also I took the median average of the distance between all the stations you have planned and it's only 378.5 m. Light rail really shouldn't be stopping any more than 450 m, especially not in low-density suburbs, otherwise you might as well put it in mixed traffic and call it a streetcar. Would that be more convenient than improving the bus service that already exists and through-routing it to the industrial areas you intend to serve? Unless buses aren't able to handle passenger loads (an unlikely scenario given that none of them run at a frequency in excess of 15 minutes), I'd say probably not.

Getting approval for such a cost-ineffective project would be nearly impossible, as it should be. 

Westney Road and Salem Road are congested mostly by car traffic, fed by Bayly Street, Ajax GO and Highway 401. These corridors are also high volume truck routes, which would certainly have to be taken into account. I believe the Rail spur that crosses Fairall St. is still active, So LRT would have to be built around it. Heavy trucks also use these corridors, so LRT would have to be built with that in mind. 

There is a large volume of cars (single-occupant) that park at Ajax GO. Those people should be targeted as potential customers. Marketed as a seamless connection to GO Transit. Factory workers are potential customers as well, ones who travel from other parts of the region using Pulse can transfer to a LRV that would take them to both Ajax and Pickering industrial zones. No transfers would be required during rush hour, if lines 1,2A and 3 are interlined. Lines 1 and 2 would interline on Taunton.

Certain portions of this LRT route would have to operate in mixed traffic, including, Clements Road, Hunt Street, Fairall Street and Westney Road between Fairall and Ritchie. 

LRT accomodates both existing riders, who are in need of solid rapid transit, as well as potential customers who sit in traffic at the Ajax GO, as a green and black LRV boards passengers almost directly beside the GO Trains. 

Region of Durham is exploding with growth, particularly in Ajax, Whitby and Oshawa. Population of Ajax was around 65,000 in the mid 90's, now it has grown to almost 110,000. Oshawa is nearing 160,000 people, a jump of around 25,000 in 20 years. Whitby with around 50,000 new residents in 20 years, with a population nearing 125,000. 

So, in 20 years, almost 140,000 new residents to this region. What's going to happen in another 20 years? using these numbers to predict future statistics, you'd be looking at a population of nearly 500,000 new residents to southern Durham Region, Ajax would be sitting anywhere from 160,000 up to 200,000 people. Numbers that are simliar to the K-W region who are currently building LRT. 

[gricer1326]

On 12/29/2016 at 3:48 PM, 409 Thornton said:

Region of Durham is exploding with growth, particularly in Ajax, Whitby and Oshawa. Population of Ajax was around 65,000 in the mid 90's, now it has grown to almost 110,000. Oshawa is nearing 160,000 people, a jump of around 25,000 in 20 years. Whitby with around 50,000 new residents in 20 years, with a population nearing 125,000. 

So, in 20 years, almost 140,000 new residents to this region. What's going to happen in another 20 years? using these numbers to predict future statistics, you'd be looking at a population of nearly 500,000 new residents to southern Durham Region, Ajax would be sitting anywhere from 160,000 up to 200,000 people. Numbers that are simliar to the K-W region who are currently building LRT. 

Waterloo Region is actually closer to 500,000 people at present. They're building a single rapid transit corridor that will act as the spine of their transit system. You're suggesting a pair of local streetcar lines for Ajax that connect residential north with industrial south and feed the GO station, not that enable fast and reliable travel across Durham. A Highway 2 LRT would be much more analogous, and that's something I'm be way quicker to support 

[ngdvd]

Newer version of my GTA map, Feb 2014:

Also made Mississauga map, Jul 2016:

[409 Thornton]

On 12/30/2016 at 6:10 PM, gricer1326 said:

Waterloo Region is actually closer to 500,000 people at present. They're building a single rapid transit corridor that will act as the spine of their transit system. You're suggesting a pair of local streetcar lines for Ajax that connect residential north with industrial south and feed the GO station, not that enable fast and reliable travel across Durham. A Highway 2 LRT would be much more analogous, and that's something I'm be way quicker to support 

Current population of Durham Region is just over 600,000, add another 500,000 in 20 years, assuming growth stays as steady as it has been in the past, population would be in the area of 1.1 million by 2037. most of this population would be south of Highway 407 and east of Highway 57. Numbers that certainly support rapid transit. Ajax is a hot spot for growth.

The Ajax LRT has combined the needs of commuters as well as the needs of community bus users, by offering direct transit between Falby Court and the major business hubs in Ajax (Harwood Plaza, Durham Centre). Highway 2 can be supported with high frequency, and high capacity buses running on dedicated lanes. Ajax has a problem, and the problem is traffic, traffic caused by commuters who are alone in their vehicles. Buses are not enough to influence people into taking public transit. Providing a train that could connect almost seamlessly to the GO train will entice commuters in the Williamson, Nottingham and Applecroft communities of Ajax to use transit will tackle the biggest issue plaguing Ajax roads. Lets face it, no one with a car wants to take a bus....but a train, people will take a train. 

The key to an LRT's success...or any local transit in suburban communities is to get the transit into these areas before people choose to purchase a second vehicle, make transit visible, by providing frequent service, make it convenient by offering service when people need it. and make it seamless, seamless connection to other rapid transit services in the region as well as GO Transit. 

[Transit geek]

This whoppingly-out-of-scale map shows what it would be like if Line 2 had Japanese-style local, rapid, and express services along the entire line (which would be quite impractical on Line 1 due to its much-less-evenly-spaced stations, on Line 4 due to its length, and on Line 5 due to infrastructure requirements). Need I say more?