GO Transit

[ZümmyZüm]

3 hours ago, Shaun said:

But for 50 years the train ran fine without having to do this, so why now?

And by doing this are you not padding the schedule by 1 minute each time the train leaves the station? So by the 10th station it will be 10min of buffer?

Because nowadays people don’t respect the fact that if they missed the train, it’s on them. Far too often will people rush or try and pry doors open. By GO implementing this “doors closed 1 min prior” it gives them that 1 minute buffer to leave on time allowing for passengers rushing and forcing doors open to still happen but allows a on-time departure.

If they had moved the timepoints up a minute they’d have the same issues currently, just a minute earlier. 

[T3G]

3 hours ago, Shaun said:

And by doing this are you not padding the schedule by 1 minute each time the train leaves the station? So by the 10th station it will be 10min of buffer?

No, because a) as Dan indicated two posts above yours, it's only at the end stations, and b) the train is not going to leave 1 minute early, it's just going to close up 1 minute early.

Which means that if there are no people running, the train will just idle at the station for a minute doing nothing.

Having extensive experience in customer service, I get why people frown upon those who rush the doors and blame the agency for missing their train - 99 times out of 100 a client of a service encounters problems, it's through their own stupidity. However, this policy goes too far in the other direction. If the train is scheduled to leave at 6:00, there are zero valid reasons for entry not to be allowed at 5:59:30. Transit agencies have no business playing mind games with the general public.

[WoodbineSecondExit]

2 hours ago, T3G said:

No, because a) as Dan indicated two posts above yours, it's only at the end stations, and b) the train is not going to leave 1 minute early, it's just going to close up 1 minute early.

Which means that if there are no people running, the train will just idle at the station for a minute doing nothing.

Having extensive experience in customer service, I get why people frown upon those who rush the doors and blame the agency for missing their train - 99 times out of 100 a client of a service encounters problems, it's through their own stupidity. However, this policy goes too far in the other direction. If the train is scheduled to leave at 6:00, there are zero valid reasons for entry not to be allowed at 5:59:30. Transit agencies have no business playing mind games with the general public.

Seems like GO is learning from TTC management by planning on having vehicles idling and doing nothing.

[smallspy]

4 hours ago, Ed T. said:

I like your optimism!

Of course this morning on CBC's Metro Morning, it was covered without mentioning "originating station". So, yes, for those who aren't up for digging into Metrolinx notices, it would seem to apply to every station.

Perhaps Metrolinx' PR boffins made it very clear that this was only for originating stations, and news outlets covering this didn't notice. Or maybe Metrolinx PR boffins don't know how effective PR works.

The quietness of the fact that it's only at the originating stations is being done on purpose.

 

They want people to show up at the station before the train arrives, not to make a mad dash for it and thrust themselves headlong into the doors as they do today.

 

Of course, the fact that this is done with almost every other intercity railway system on the planet doesn't seem to have been noticed by the kvetchers.

 

Dan

[Ed T.]

1 hour ago, smallspy said:

The quietness of the fact that it's only at the originating stations is being done on purpose.

They want people to show up at the station before the train arrives, not to make a mad dash for it and thrust themselves headlong into the doors as they do today.

Of course, the fact that this is done with almost every other intercity railway system on the planet doesn't seem to have been noticed by the kvetchers.

Dan

 

Well, it will become obvious to any reasonably regular rider what's going on, and we're back to the same old same old. While not necessarily developing public opinion in Metrolinx' favour. I am skeptical that this will work out anything like what Metrolinx wants. But then, I'm an internet kvetcher, not a Metrolinx boffin.

 

[nfitz]

On 1/9/2023 at 12:47 AM, Gil said:

Wouldn't an across the board schedule adjustment of 1 minute have met with less bad press?  

Why? They've added padding, particularly at Union Station, more than once. Compare the recent Danforth to Exhibition times compared to historic times.

I don't remember any press about this, let alone bad press. What they are doing now got bad press. Simply padding another minute (yet again) wouldn't have gotten anything.

[Ed T.]

Last night there was a 22:20 express train to Port Credit and on to some other destinations.

I'm not sure if I'm searching wrong, but I don't see it on the Union to Port Credit schedule. Was it on due to the Raptors game?

The reason I am asking is because with the hourly local departures, catching a train to Long Branch means waiting to 10:45 PM, even if my event finishes at 10 PM.

If I knew there was going to be a 10:20 PM express to Port Credit, I would just drive there, park, and eat the extra fare to Union, as opposed to walking to Long Branch GO.

I did think about the possibility of catching a 23 Lakeshore bus from Port Credit GO to Long Branch, but that probably loses any time savings.

 

[Articulated]

16 minutes ago, Ed T. said:

Last night there was a 22:20 express train to Port Credit and on to some other destinations.

I'm not sure if I'm searching wrong, but I don't see it on the Union to Port Credit schedule. Was it on due to the Raptors game?

The reason I am asking is because with the hourly local departures, catching a train to Long Branch means waiting to 10:45 PM, even if my event finishes at 10 PM.

If I knew there was going to be a 10:20 PM express to Port Credit, I would just drive there, park, and eat the extra fare to Union, as opposed to walking to Long Branch GO.

I did think about the possibility of catching a 23 Lakeshore bus from Port Credit GO to Long Branch, but that probably loses any time savings.

 

The Raptors played a home game against Charlotte last night.

From what I've heard before, Metrolinx will often have a standby train(s?) available to run after major sporting events. However, they're not published in the schedules, as they are flexible in terms of when they depart, and dependent on passenger loads of course. If the game went into overtime, for example, a 22:20 departure may leave before the game is finished and before most attendees could make it out to the station.

[Ed T.]

Thanks, and, poop. It's too bad that Saturday evenings there's still half-hour service.

And if the King car would actually make it to Roncesvalles/Queen, I could try to catch a 501L on from there. Even if the 501L went down to Dufferin loop, that might work. But now it's hike up Dufferin to Queen and hope there's a bus coming (as opposed to resting out by Long Branch).

[nfitz]

4 hours ago, Articulated said:

The Raptors played a home game against Charlotte last night.

From what I've heard before, Metrolinx will often have a standby train(s?) available to run after major sporting events. However, they're not published in the schedules, as they are flexible in terms of when they depart, and dependent on passenger loads of course. 

They definitely do have extra trains running for such events on Lakeshore West and East. They normally appear in the online tracker a few minutes before they depart. More often than not, they aren't express, and they try and schedule them about 15 minutes before/after the other trains. But they have been known to run some as express (or convert the local to an express, if the extra is just behind).

Even when I'm attending an event, it's a bit hit or miss. I've left a game at the end, got on my train, and they've only announced the following extra after I've boarded!

It's all very hit and miss - though I noticed over the last (TFC) season, they became much more adept at getting the extras in place at the right time!

[Ed T.]

I guess I only noticed "Lakeshore West" on the monitors and tapped and went upstairs. Then I got a little suspicious and indeed it was an express to Port Credit and then local to maybe Burlington. I didn't pay much attention beyond the express bit.

[blue.bird.fan]

On 1/9/2023 at 10:59 AM, ZümmyZüm said:

Because nowadays people don’t respect the fact that if they missed the train, it’s on them. Far too often will people rush or try and pry doors open. By GO implementing this “doors closed 1 min prior” it gives them that 1 minute buffer to leave on time allowing for passengers rushing and forcing doors open to still happen but allows a on-time departure.

If they had moved the timepoints up a minute they’d have the same issues currently, just a minute earlier. 

I know my reply is a bit late. When I was at Union Station, I decided to take the GO train to Danforth instead of the subway, because, why not. There were employees with large signs advertising the 1-minute prior closure, and it was a bit funny to be honest.

[Gil]

With GO's service extension to London a little over a year old have they figured out what their next steps are toward growing the service if they intend to keep it?  It's a bit of an open-ended pilot project implemented when a lot of people were still working from home.  The London extension has yet to make it onto GO's system map.  Perhaps once it's included covered by PRESTO?  I know Western students are hoping for additional service, even if it's bus service to supplement the one peak trip in each direction by train.

Therein lies my question, if GO intends to expand further outside of the Greater Golden Horseshoe, it should probably do so from a hub like Kitchener/Waterloo rather than extend service further on existing routes.  There are a few places like St. Thomas where local/inter-municipal transit hasn't reached it yet and would be a likely candidate for GO Bus service of some sort.  Other routes that do exist (under the umbrella of Southwest Community Transit) could probably benefit from having supplemental service from GO Transit.  Barrie, Guelph (?), Orangeville and Peterborough would also make logical hubs.  The latter two would have to rely on connecting bus and train trips for anyone heading into Toronto.  Service into Northumberland County is being looked at in conjunction with the Lakeshore East line being extended to Bowmanville.

I brought it up here earlier, but given the current pool of GO bus route numbers can't accommodate these new services, putting them in the 100s to signify they don't enter the GTHA (with the possible exception of routes connecting to Hamilton and Bowmanville) makes the most sense.  A lot of these would likely start off as weekday-only routes that could hopefully grow with ridership demand.  I'm thinking like Lindsay, Collingwood, Orillia, Shelburne/Alliston, Woodstock/Ingersoll and Cobourg/Port Hope.  Owen Sound and Goderich seem a bit of a stretch in terms of reach but it would be ideal before considering other places like Belleville, Kingston, Sarnia or Windsor.

[Doppelkupplung]

Nice to see this bad boy still running. Been seeing 2449 around my area too. 

[Doppelkupplung]

Anyone know if GO has "performance" mode enabled on the Allison 'boxes? There's been a few instances where I've been riding the MCI 2554+ units (that had the updated shift schedule when they were new) and the operator was really getting the motor up in the RPMs, even at low speed. Just curious, because I know those 2554+s will go through the gears as fast as they can, even at full throttle and keep the RPMs super low. I guess this can be done by using the "manual" mode but that seems tedious... ?

[Shaun]

On 1/18/2023 at 8:41 PM, Gil said:

With GO's service extension to London a little over a year old have they figured out what their next steps are toward growing the service if they intend to keep it?  It's a bit of an open-ended pilot project implemented when a lot of people were still working from home.  The London extension has yet to make it onto GO's system map.  Perhaps once it's included covered by PRESTO?  I know Western students are hoping for additional service, even if it's bus service to supplement the one peak trip in each direction by train.

Therein lies my question, if GO intends to expand further outside of the Greater Golden Horseshoe, it should probably do so from a hub like Kitchener/Waterloo rather than extend service further on existing routes.  There are a few places like St. Thomas where local/inter-municipal transit hasn't reached it yet and would be a likely candidate for GO Bus service of some sort.  Other routes that do exist (under the umbrella of Southwest Community Transit) could probably benefit from having supplemental service from GO Transit.  Barrie, Guelph (?), Orangeville and Peterborough would also make logical hubs.  The latter two would have to rely on connecting bus and train trips for anyone heading into Toronto.  Service into Northumberland County is being looked at in conjunction with the Lakeshore East line being extended to Bowmanville.

I brought it up here earlier, but given the current pool of GO bus route numbers can't accommodate these new services, putting them in the 100s to signify they don't enter the GTHA (with the possible exception of routes connecting to Hamilton and Bowmanville) makes the most sense.  A lot of these would likely start off as weekday-only routes that could hopefully grow with ridership demand.  I'm thinking like Lindsay, Collingwood, Orillia, Shelburne/Alliston, Woodstock/Ingersoll and Cobourg/Port Hope.  Owen Sound and Goderich seem a bit of a stretch in terms of reach but it would be ideal before considering other places like Belleville, Kingston, Sarnia or Windsor.

Those routes belong to ONR they are better suited.

[Gil]

On 2/12/2023 at 7:11 PM, Shaun said:

Those routes belong to ONR they are better suited.

ONR for likely Orillia.  Collingwood and Lindsay might be a bit of a stretch.  Even if these were seasonal routes, those two seem like the next logical expansion northward.  Orillia might be able to get by with ONR, but I'm sure GO could supplement the Linx service as right now people have to get from downtown to Georgian College to catch Linx to Orillia.  Limited DRT connections to both Orillia and Lindsay were lost during the pandemic, so reconnecting them might happen sooner with GO than with DRT.

Some sort of bus service connecting Kitchener-Waterloo and London might be appreciated.  The current coach services between the two don't all stop at the same location in KW, meaning while there are options, they may not be convenient.  Aside from the ones that serve Pearson, none really connect to the GO network, which sucks if you're coming from say Mississauga, Brampton, Milton or Guelph and trying to get to London means having to backtrack to Union to catch them.  A transfer in KW from the more regular service to the GTA might help build the train ridership out to London.

[Ed T.]

I am not a super frequent rider of GO but what I have seen as recently as yesterday puzzles me.

1. Last night's 18:15 Lakeshore West out of Union was ten cars. Lakeshore has been running 12 car trains for a while now, and other LS trains seemed to be 12, the one I caught eastbound was (or I would have been running!). I don't see why this one train would have been 10 cars?
2. I imagine that GO has a nice supply of new cab cars. Yet last night, 253 and 255 were both cab cars, into the evening. Why would they be running these seemingly older cab cars? (To go with the handmedown 7900s serving Mimico and Long Branch, no doubt!)
3. After all the hoo-haw about "doors close one minute before departure", I haven't really experienced that. At Union, the doors close, and after a fairly short pause the trains start creeping out of the station. There's no obvious new pause. It just seems that the departure times have been moved up, so instead of leaving on the :45, they leave on the :43.
4. Half hour service is back for weekday evenings. I wish they had announced that a bit more explicitly instead of making us root through the schedules (which I find harder to access and read than in the old days). This does answer another of my questions--or rather makes it moot--why there was half-hour service on Saturday evenings (and I guess Sunday as well), but not weekdays.

[CJ.]

12 hours ago, Ed T. said:

I am not a super frequent rider of GO but what I have seen as recently as yesterday puzzles me.

1. I imagine that GO has a nice supply of new cab cars. Yet last night, 253 and 255 were both cab cars, into the evening. Why would they be running these seemingly older cab cars? (To go with the handmedown 7900s serving Mimico and Long Branch, no doubt!)

At one point, I remember they were all being phased into regular commuter cars. This was around I think 3 or 4 years ago, and they also became practically rare as cab cars for the next few years, but I have been noticing that they are a lot more common now as well

At the union yard I have seen a lot of detached bi-level cab cars throughout december, so most likely a maintenance thing

And I still see F59PH locos in regular service, despite them scheduled to retire at least 6-7 years ago...so these older cab cars are the least of the worries they should have right now

[drum118]

On 1/13/2023 at 10:45 AM, Ed T. said:

Thanks, and, poop. It's too bad that Saturday evenings there's still half-hour service.

And if the King car would actually make it to Roncesvalles/Queen, I could try to catch a 501L on from there. Even if the 501L went down to Dufferin loop, that might work. But now it's hike up Dufferin to Queen and hope there's a bus coming (as opposed to resting out by Long Branch).

You most likely may get an 504 to Roncesvalles In April after the missing OS on King St is replaced by the new OS system, as well getting to Dundas West. Huge chunks of OS missing on King a few weeks ago when I shot the area.

As for the old cab cars, what are ppl going to say when the rebuilt ones start showing up later this year??  Saw 255 at Port Credit a few weeks ago.

If the ridership is not there for 30 minute service, have to go with hourly even though its the pits.

[smallspy]

On 2/25/2023 at 9:52 AM, Ed T. said:

I am not a super frequent rider of GO but what I have seen as recently as yesterday puzzles me.

1. Last night's 18:15 Lakeshore West out of Union was ten cars. Lakeshore has been running 12 car trains for a while now, and other LS trains seemed to be 12, the one I caught eastbound was (or I would have been running!). I don't see why this one train would have been 10 cars?

They are changing a whole bunch of train lengths this weekend, and it may be that going forward there will be some more 10-car trainsets scheduled to operate on weekends on the Lakeshore Lines.

 

Or that trainset was changed off for a spare earlier in the day, and an L10 is all they happened to have.

 

On 2/25/2023 at 9:52 AM, Ed T. said:

2. I imagine that GO has a nice supply of new cab cars. Yet last night, 253 and 255 were both cab cars, into the evening. Why would they be running these seemingly older cab cars? (To go with the handmedown 7900s serving Mimico and Long Branch, no doubt!)

Despite the seeming abundance of new cab cars, there is still a need for some of the older ones (which are only a handful of year older than the oldest CEM cabs) to maintain service. This is a combination of the amount of service currently being provided, and the Transport Canada rules around the maintenance and inspection of the equipment.

 

On top of this, some of the oldest cab cars are currently getting refurbished by ONR in North Bay, and will be returning as cab cars. This, in concert with the current tender out for new locos, will help allow for additional increases in service.

 

On 2/25/2023 at 9:52 AM, Ed T. said:

3. After all the hoo-haw about "doors close one minute before departure", I haven't really experienced that. At Union, the doors close, and after a fairly short pause the trains start creeping out of the station. There's no obvious new pause. It just seems that the departure times have been moved up, so instead of leaving on the :45, they leave on the :43.

That's because the door closing process can sometimes take as long as a minute, especially at Union where some trains have the doors open on both sides and which is frequently very busy.

 

On 2/25/2023 at 9:52 AM, Ed T. said:

4. Half hour service is back for weekday evenings. I wish they had announced that a bit more explicitly instead of making us root through the schedules (which I find harder to access and read than in the old days). This does answer another of my questions--or rather makes it moot--why there was half-hour service on Saturday evenings (and I guess Sunday as well), but not weekdays.

Right on GO's front page they list the upcoming service announcements, although admittedly they don't announce them until a couple of days before they take effect. That's where I saw it, rather than going through the schedules.

 

Dan

[Ed T.]

3 hours ago, smallspy said:

They are changing a whole bunch of train lengths this weekend, and it may be that going forward there will be some more 10-car trainsets scheduled to operate on weekends on the Lakeshore Lines.

Or that trainset was changed off for a spare earlier in the day, and an L10 is all they happened to have.

 

 

That actually sucks, because I usually want the tail end of the train heading downtown. Brings back memories of 6/4 or 8/6 car trains on the subway. Gosh, it's stopping way short of me (or way beyond me)! Run run!

Obviously if I know what length of train to expect, I can spot myself on the platform accordingly. When it's random, well....

 

3 hours ago, smallspy said:

Despite the seeming abundance of new cab cars, there is still a need for some of the older ones (which are only a handful of year older than the oldest CEM cabs) to maintain service. This is a combination of the amount of service currently being provided, and the Transport Canada rules around the maintenance and inspection of the equipment.

On top of this, some of the oldest cab cars are currently getting refurbished by ONR in North Bay, and will be returning as cab cars. This, in concert with the current tender out for new locos, will help allow for additional increases in service.

I would have thought that the CEM cars have more luxurious control cabs?

 

3 hours ago, smallspy said:

That's because the door closing process can sometimes take as long as a minute, especially at Union where some trains have the doors open on both sides and which is frequently very busy.

 

Sure, but it doesn't seem any much different than before. Well, except for the "customer ambassador" yelling "DON'T BLOCK THE DOORS ON PLATFORM 10!!!"

3 hours ago, smallspy said:

Right on GO's front page they list the upcoming service announcements, although admittedly they don't announce them until a couple of days before they take effect. That's where I saw it, rather than going through the schedules.

There's a link to service changes. I think there should be more details on the main page, especially with a major change like returning to half hour service. Many the time I have clicked on the link, to find nothing of interest to me.

That's a pretty bland an uninformative blurb.

[Gil]

41 minutes ago, Ed T. said:

That actually sucks, because I usually want the tail end of the train heading downtown. Brings back memories of 6/4 or 8/6 car trains on the subway. Gosh, it's stopping way short of me (or way beyond me)! Run run!

...

I'm reminded of the Subway Rider Efficiency Guide from 2005 which told you which subway car (back when they did not have the open gangway design) to ride in order to line up with a particular amenity (stairs, escalator, elevator, specific exit) at your alighting station so that you can exit efficiently.  I usually board a GO Train with the same thing in mind, but having trains of varying lengths sometimes messes up that plan.  Never mind when only certain doors open at a station throwing everyone for a loop!

I've said it before, if GO is leaning more towards dynamic train lengths and if they know the lengths of these trains enough in advance (i.e. they're scheduled to be a certain length) then they should indicate on the departure board.  There's room on it to indicate that information.  How did the pilot project at Mimico and Danforth turn out?  Putting that signage on the platform (when it already existed, but in a plainer form) but not including the train length information on the departure board seemed like a half-hearted effort.  During the pandemic when trains were at times only 6 cars long the departure board merely commented something like "Short Train", but didn't indicate the length.  The recorded announcements warning that a train may be shorter is another one.  If I want to be at the tail end of a train I'm usually left to count the number of cars as it pulls into the station so that I know if I need to reposition myself for boarding.

If they don't want to go to the expense of putting up the duplicate signage with the different colours indicating the various train lengths but still feel the existing signage (likely meant for the crew?) isn't sufficient then painting the car lengths onto the platform floor might be the cheapest option.  Short of simply pointing out the existing signage to get more use out of it, I don't know why GO thought it needed to reinvent the wheel.  They really just need to put all of that information together: departure board and platform signage, whether or not they want to change the recorded announcements that say when a train is arriving to also include the length of the train would be an additional bonus.  I'm wondering though how they'd be able to make that information available for the visually impaired before they're sued into compliance.

[smallspy]

18 hours ago, Ed T. said:

That actually sucks, because I usually want the tail end of the train heading downtown. Brings back memories of 6/4 or 8/6 car trains on the subway. Gosh, it's stopping way short of me (or way beyond me)! Run run!

Obviously if I know what length of train to expect, I can spot myself on the platform accordingly. When it's random, well....

One thing that GO was supposed to do a couple of years ago was start announcing train lengths with the arrival of each train. There was going to be a system that announced it over the PAs and showed it on the screens.

 

Yeah, that didn't end up happening. They do announce it at some stations, but that's also dependent on the staff being there, knowing the information before-hand, and having the time to do so.

 

18 hours ago, Ed T. said:

I would have thought that the CEM cars have more luxurious control cabs?

They do.

But if you want to run more trains, and you've been told that you're not allowed to buy more unless you absolutely, positively need it, you need to make do, right?

 

18 hours ago, Ed T. said:

Sure, but it doesn't seem any much different than before. Well, except for the "customer ambassador" yelling "DON'T BLOCK THE DOORS ON PLATFORM 10!!!"

That was the whole point. It's supposed to be subtle. And by all accounts, it has been effective.

 

18 hours ago, Ed T. said:

There's a link to service changes. I think there should be more details on the main page, especially with a major change like returning to half hour service. Many the time I have clicked on the link, to find nothing of interest to me.

That's a pretty bland an uninformative blurb.

Well, I don't know what to tell you then. It was and is there.

 

Dan

[Mark Walton]

On 2/26/2023 at 3:46 PM, Gil said:

I'm reminded of the Subway Rider Efficiency Guide from 2005 which told you which subway car (back when they did not have the open gangway design) to ride in order to line up with a particular amenity (stairs, escalator, elevator, specific exit) at your alighting station so that you can exit efficiently.  I usually board a GO Train with the same thing in mind, but having trains of varying lengths sometimes messes up that plan.  Never mind when only certain doors open at a station throwing everyone for a loop!

I've said it before, if GO is leaning more towards dynamic train lengths and if they know the lengths of these trains enough in advance (i.e. they're scheduled to be a certain length) then they should indicate on the departure board.  There's room on it to indicate that information.  How did the pilot project at Mimico and Danforth turn out?  Putting that signage on the platform (when it already existed, but in a plainer form) but not including the train length information on the departure board seemed like a half-hearted effort.  During the pandemic when trains were at times only 6 cars long the departure board merely commented something like "Short Train", but didn't indicate the length.  The recorded announcements warning that a train may be shorter is another one.  If I want to be at the tail end of a train I'm usually left to count the number of cars as it pulls into the station so that I know if I need to reposition myself for boarding.

If they don't want to go to the expense of putting up the duplicate signage with the different colours indicating the various train lengths but still feel the existing signage (likely meant for the crew?) isn't sufficient then painting the car lengths onto the platform floor might be the cheapest option.  Short of simply pointing out the existing signage to get more use out of it, I don't know why GO thought it needed to reinvent the wheel.  They really just need to put all of that information together: departure board and platform signage, whether or not they want to change the recorded announcements that say when a train is arriving to also include the length of the train would be an additional bonus.  I'm wondering though how they'd be able to make that information available for the visually impaired before they're sued into compliance.

Do the displays include where to stand in cases where only certain cars open at certain stations? European railways have long had those; Deutsche Bahn calls it the Wagenstandanzeiger.