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Enzo Aquarius

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On the wiki it says the MP40s are the first locos capable of handling 12 car trainsets.

Does that mean the F59PHs can only do a max of 10 car trainsets?

Do they ever couple two MP40s or MP54s in a trainset like they do with the F59PHs in revenue service?

And how about coupling one MP40 or MP54 with one F59PH in revenue service?

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1 hour ago, Orion V said:

On the wiki it says the MP40s are the first locos capable of handling 12 car trainsets.

Does that mean the F59PHs can only do a max of 10 car trainsets?

Do they ever couple two MP40s or MP54s in a trainset like they do with the F59PHs in revenue service?

And how about coupling one MP40 or MP54 with one F59PH in revenue service?

When it was a 12 car train set it required 2x F59 locomotives.

 

It's rare but there have been some MP40/F59 combinations.

Go through this collection, there should be some of what you are looking for. 

 

https://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php

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12 hours ago, Orion V said:

On the wiki it says the MP40s are the first locos capable of handling 12 car trainsets.

Does that mean the F59PHs can only do a max of 10 car trainsets?

Do they ever couple two MP40s or MP54s in a trainset like they do with the F59PHs in revenue service?

And how about coupling one MP40 or MP54 with one F59PH in revenue service?

The thing that limits train lengths is the ability for the locomotive to provide enough HEP for the length of train.

 

The HEP powerplant in an F59 only has enough power to reliably provide power for 10 coaches.

 

The HEP powerplant in an MP40 is somewhat more powerful, and can reliably provide power for more than 12 coaches.

 

Can they each handle more? Sure, although there will be issues with phasing, voltage drop, and a whole lot of other things that really don't make it a worthwhile endeavour.

 

Perhaps you've forgotten, but for several years GO was operating all of the weekend rains with pairs of locos - including pairs of MP40s. That stopped when someone high up saw the fuel bills.

 

As for coupling one of each of them together? That would depend on which loco was configured to provide HEP. But keep in mind that if you're pulling a 12-car train with an MP40 and an F59, and the MP40 conks out, what are you going to do about those other two cars?

 

2 hours ago, MCIBUS said:

Question?

What's the max rtrain lehght(cars)that Go can run, that fit the GO Station Platforms?

The standard GO platform is about 335 metres (~1100 feet) long. That is long enough for a 12-car train pulled by an MP40/MP54.

 

There are a couple of locations with platforms shorter than this for various reasons. In those cases, only half of (or in some extreme cases, 1 and a half) cars will have their doors open.

 

Conversely, there are a couple of places with platforms longer than this, but they are far from the norm.

 

Dan

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4 hours ago, smallspy said:

 

As for coupling one of each of them together? That would depend on which loco was configured to provide HEP. But keep in mind that if you're pulling a 12-car train with an MP40 and an F59, and the MP40 conks out, what are you going to do about those other two cars?

 

That's interesting cause about two months ago I noticed a very interesting consist on the Lakeshore Line.

 

It was MP40 632, followed by F59 558, 11 BiLevels, and classic cab car 252.

 

I heard 558 was placed on as a way to test the unit because it had recently got maintenance.

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2 hours ago, rs3488 said:

That's interesting cause about two months ago I noticed a very interesting consist on the Lakeshore Line.

 

It was MP40 632, followed by F59 558, 11 BiLevels, and classic cab car 252.

 

I heard 558 was placed on as a way to test the unit because it had recently got maintenance.

Sure, it could be done. The F59 would have been providing the traction power. The train would have been slower than a 3-legged dog in a snowstorm, but yeah, it would move.

 

HEP though? That would have been problematic. So the MP40 would have been providing it.

 

Dan

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On 11/8/2022 at 8:29 PM, Shaun said:

The problem with being an essential service is that everything goes to binding arbitration, which results in everything being split down the middle. 

So if party A is at #2 and party B is at #5 the result is 3.275 or something like that. 

In this situation I think that is exactly what the government is trying to avoid, because it costs more. 

Not sure what precedent they are trying to make here but it's not good.  

A variation on arbitration is "final offer selection": the arbitrator/board picks one final offer over the other, no cherry-picking between the two.

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2 hours ago, Orion V said:

Dan, that means if there's a 12 car train with 2 F59s, both would be providing HEP provide at the same time?

Last weekend there was one run I saw on a youtuber's channel like that.

I’ll defer to Dan for the final word, but synchronizing the phases on each respective genset strikes me as impractical, if not impossible.

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2 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

I’ll defer to Dan for the final word, but synchronizing the phases on each respective genset strikes me as impractical, if not impossible.

Synchronizing diesel powered generators is actually pretty standard in backup power situations.  Example, the place I work in has three large diesel generators.  Whenever Toronto Hydro bails out, they start up and synchronize then get connected to a common buss, and a break-before-make transfer switch throws to disconnect the building from commercial power onto the generators, and it's all automatic and fast.  It's also totally standard practice in places where the utility power is provided by diesel generators like many of communities up in the territories (the per-kWh cost of this, especially the unsubsudized numbers will cause anyone who thinks rates are high in Ontario to have an epic eyepopping case of sticker shock).

Is it done in railway head end power?  I don't know.  It's something I've wondered about with how many cars Via packs into The Canadian which has multiple locomotives.  That would be a lot of load on one head end power unit if it isn't being picked up across the multiple locomotives.

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Go Transit buses will resume on November 12th. Especially since they will be needed for replacement bus service on the Stouvfille line and other upcoming projects that require bus replacement. Time is to be confirmed since Go Transit service day starts at 3 AM since 34 and 40 operate 24 hours. 

Even when the strike lasted four days before a new contract was ratified, the major concerns were safety along with language to prevent contracting out operations. 

Contract is for 3 years and has to be ratified by the union members. 

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/go-transit-workers-reach-tentative-agreement-with-metrolinx-ending-four-day-strike-1.6148161

 

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14 hours ago, Orion V said:

Dan, that means if there's a 12 car train with 2 F59s, both would be providing HEP provide at the same time?

Yes. But not to the same channel.

 

As Wayside Observer pointed out above, synchronizing multiple sources to align phases is done pretty often with powerplants and the grid, but I can't help but think that there is some advanced circuitry doing some of the dirty work there. In any case, it's not usually (or ever, to my knowledge?) done this way on the North American railroads.

 

In the case of GO and VIA, instead they use two independent HEP buses, one down either side of the train. On the cars, they can select which HEP bus they get fed from. And generally, you'll have the cars alternating their feeds, so that each HEP bus is powering half of the train, with the other half powered by the other HEP bus.

 

And those HEP buses can be powered from a single source, or multiple sources. So in the case of your 12-car train pulled by 2 F59s, each F59 is powering one of the HEP buses - and thus, only providing HEP to 6 cars.

 

Dan

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1 hour ago, smallspy said:

Yes. But not to the same channel.

 

As Wayside Observer pointed out above, synchronizing multiple sources to align phases is done pretty often with powerplants and the grid, but I can't help but think that there is some advanced circuitry doing some of the dirty work there. In any case, it's not usually (or ever, to my knowledge?) done this way on the North American railroads.

Some.  I can think of other far nastier phase/frequency servo locking systems for rotating machinery.  The complexity isn't all that bad, but like anything, complexity can be increased as much as you want for reasons both good and bad.

One transit related example comes to mind of seriously ratcheting up the complexity of synchronizing AC power is the New York subway.  A lot of the signalling is 25 Hz which was fine until Consolidated Edison discontinued supplying 25 Hz power.  Unlike traction power where the incoming AC power can be arbitrary as long as the substation can accept it and feeds out 600ish volts DC and picks up load, the signalling system has a whole bunch of analog filtering etc. that is frequency dependent so the incoming AC power actually matters in the end application.  The solution was to put in a bunch of electronic frequency converters in various places throughout the system where 25 Hz signalling power was needed and at first glance this would take care of it.  It turns out that meeting the 25 Hz requirement in each power feed into the signalling system wasn't enough though.  All of it eneded up having to be synchronized which was never a problem with the utility feed which had consistent timing vs. multiple independent converters free running.  The solution to get them locked involved using GPS as the master timing reference.  Ouch.  I guess having a couple of GPS receivers at each site all recovering the time signal and locking converter phase and frequency to that saves running a reference timing loop around a good chunk of the New York subway system.  But it goes to show how you can make anything as complicated as you want it.

This was pretty exciting stuff when it was done but these days, GPS disciplined oscillators etc. are pretty much taken for granted.

1 hour ago, smallspy said:

In the case of GO and VIA, instead they use two independent HEP buses, one down either side of the train. On the cars, they can select which HEP bus they get fed from. And generally, you'll have the cars alternating their feeds, so that each HEP bus is powering half of the train, with the other half powered by the other HEP bus.

One other advantage here is if you run two buss instead of one besides ditching the synch requirement is it doubles up current carrying capacity without having to move up to a larger conductor cross section on one buss.  I hope the equipment's designed to prevent accidental cross connection otherwise you will end up with two generator sets attempting to run in sync.  Depending on how far off they happen to be, it could be a nothingburger where one of the machines bumps the other by a couple of degrees and they settle in or it could be downright violent and destructive.

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19 hours ago, smallspy said:

Sure, it could be done. The F59 would have been providing the traction power. The train would have been slower than a 3-legged dog in a snowstorm, but yeah, it would move.

 

HEP though? That would have been problematic. So the MP40 would have been providing it.

 

Dan

What a way for someone to break in the locomotive. Lol. Could they split the tractive effort between the two loco's?

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4 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

One other advantage here is if you run two buss instead of one besides ditching the synch requirement is it doubles up current carrying capacity without having to move up to a larger conductor cross section on one buss.  I hope the equipment's designed to prevent accidental cross connection otherwise you will end up with two generator sets attempting to run in sync.  Depending on how far off they happen to be, it could be a nothingburger where one of the machines bumps the other by a couple of degrees and they settle in or it could be downright violent and destructive.

This is part of the reason why they come up with it. And yes, the controls onboard the equipment only allow you to select from one side or the other, but not both simultaneously.

 

And in fact, I believe that the locos have a circuit that detects that if the HEP has come out of phase (or crosses phase) and will drop it out entirely in the situation of a cross connection.

 

Dan

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How many people does it take to operate a GO Train consist?

From my understanding, there are the two engineers driving the train, and one train attendant, who helps with accessiblity on/off boarding. 

But are there any other crew/staff members on the train as well, and what do they do?

 

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1 hour ago, MRD10 said:

How many people does it take to operate a GO Train consist?

From my understanding, there are the two engineers driving the train, and one train attendant, who helps with accessiblity on/off boarding. 

But are there any other crew/staff members on the train as well, and what do they do?

Only three. The locomotive engineer, conductor (co-pilot) and customer service ambassador or CSA for short. 

Sometimes transit safety may be on-board select trains. The last time I have seen them was many years ago on the Barrie line. 

Customer service ambassador on-board the train does more than just accessibility such as deploying the ramp. They also communicate changes, provide customer service and assistance along with responding to emergency alarms (yellow strip) if transit safety is not available to respond. 

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2 hours ago, GTAmissions1 said:

Only three. The locomotive engineer, conductor (co-pilot) and customer service ambassador or CSA for short. 

Sometimes transit safety may be on-board select trains. The last time I have seen them was many years ago on the Barrie line. 

Customer service ambassador on-board the train does more than just accessibility such as deploying the ramp. They also communicate changes, provide customer service and assistance along with responding to emergency alarms (yellow strip) if transit safety is not available to respond. 

Is transit safety like the TTC's fare inspectors that ride the streetcars, or are they more like TTC's special constables?

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22 minutes ago, MRD10 said:

Is transit safety like the TTC's fare inspectors that ride the streetcars, or are they more like TTC's special constables?

GO Transit Safety officers have evolved to be closer to TTC's Special Constables. They used to do fare enforcement in their downtime, but that duty has largely been left to the "Revenue Protection" staff.

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On 11/10/2022 at 6:31 PM, Orion V said:

Dan, that means if there's a 12 car train with 2 F59s, both would be providing HEP provide at the same time?

Last weekend there was one run I saw on a youtuber's channel like that.

I took the Niagara Falls train a few times in the summer and each time it was led with 2 F59s pulling 12 cars. 

Just out of curiosity, does GO store the overnight/on weekends in London for the 5:20am weekday departure? If so, where is it kept? I took Via Rail to London this past weekend and was trying to see if it was parked anywhere but I didn’t spot it 

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1 minute ago, yrt1000 said:

I took the Niagara Falls train a few times in the summer and each time it was led with 2 F59s pulling 12 cars. 

Just out of curiosity, does GO store the overnight/on weekends in London for the 5:20am weekday departure? If so, where is it kept? I took Via Rail to London this past weekend and was trying to see if it was parked anywhere but I didn’t spot it 

They don't have the right shore power for GO trains so the trains idle all-night is what someone said.  

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12 hours ago, yrt1000 said:

I took the Niagara Falls train a few times in the summer and each time it was led with 2 F59s pulling 12 cars. 

Just out of curiosity, does GO store the overnight/on weekends in London for the 5:20am weekday departure? If so, where is it kept? I took Via Rail to London this past weekend and was trying to see if it was parked anywhere but I didn’t spot it 

The trainset lays over in London most of the week overnight.

 

But on Friday nights, the trainset deadheads back to Kitchener.

 

Dan

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6 hours ago, smallspy said:

But on Friday nights, the trainset deadheads back to Kitchener.

Really dumb question, but why deadhead when (a) the staff is already onboard and (b) certainly someone might want an express from London to Kitchener afterwards? Why not make a weird once-weekly train that someone might have use for if the train is already burning fuel? I'm not saying make all the stops - I'm just saying to pick up passengers at the first station and drop them off at the last station, if there's anyone with a weird enough schedule to need it. Same with return to London on Sunday - you'd think that someone might want to be able to get into Toronto late at night on Friday for a weekend, then head back on Sunday night.

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4 hours ago, Gamer Studios said:

Part of it is a limitation on the infrastructure along the route. The London leg of that route can't handle MPI's simply because they are too heavy.

I guessing here, but wouldnt the freight locos being used by CN/CP(like a dash 9, SD70, ET44 etc) be heavier than an MPI?( I say this because im assuming CN or CP use the same line). Like I said, im guessing. I dont follow rail stuff as closely as others do on this board.

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17 hours ago, InfiNorth said:

Really dumb question, but why deadhead when (a) the staff is already onboard and (b) certainly someone might want an express from London to Kitchener afterwards? Why not make a weird once-weekly train that someone might have use for if the train is already burning fuel? I'm not saying make all the stops - I'm just saying to pick up passengers at the first station and drop them off at the last station, if there's anyone with a weird enough schedule to need it. Same with return to London on Sunday - you'd think that someone might want to be able to get into Toronto late at night on Friday for a weekend, then head back on Sunday night.

Because if you announce it to the public - post it on the schedule - you thus need to keep it on that schedule.

 

By deadheading it, the "schedule" is far less restrictive.

 

13 hours ago, Gamer Studios said:

Part of it is a limitation on the infrastructure along the route. The London leg of that route can't handle MPI's simply because they are too heavy.

It's not that specifically that the units are too heavy - as pointed out, the bridge can handle multiple 6-axle freight locos without issue, and those are far, far heavier than an MP40.

 

But there is a weight limitation on the bridge in terms of point loading. The MP40s are heavier per axle than almost anything else - and that includes even some of the most heavily ballasted 6-axle freight locos

 

This will all be moot soon, since they are going to be doing major work on the bridge next year.

 

Dan

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