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6 minutes ago, Articulated said:

A new route 94 will be introduced, operating between Pickering GO and Square One via Scarborough Centre, Yorkdale, and Keele/401.

Wow, this is very interesting. That's quite the route. Any more info on this? I suppose it would use the Mississauga T'way on the west end. 

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Original GO Cab Car 104 is at the Toronto Railway Museum

For the sake of convenience, I’ll leave this here: Total of 5 ex go 8000s being loaded in Agincourt yard this morning, destined for their second lives in parts unknown. Numbers still on, th

omg I think its time for some social distancing for you two

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1 minute ago, Doppelkupplung said:

Wow, this is very interesting. That's quite the route. Any more info on this? I suppose it would use the Mississauga T'way on the west end. 

https://www.gotransit.com/static_files/gotransit/assets/pdf/TripPlanning/FullSchedules/FS05092020/Table94.pdf

I do not believe it uses the Mississauga Transitway, as neither Renforth nor Dixie Transitway are listed as stops. Which I prefer, as I have found the Transitway to be a much slower trip anytime I've needed to use the 19 or 40. The 40 has actually lost nearly all of its time savings over the all-stops 47 thanks to the addition of the Transitway routing and Burlington Carpool stop.

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56 minutes ago, Articulated said:

https://www.gotransit.com/static_files/gotransit/assets/pdf/TripPlanning/FullSchedules/FS05092020/Table94.pdf

I do not believe it uses the Mississauga Transitway, as neither Renforth nor Dixie Transitway are listed as stops. Which I prefer, as I have found the Transitway to be a much slower trip anytime I've needed to use the 19 or 40. The 40 has actually lost nearly all of its time savings over the all-stops 47 thanks to the addition of the Transitway routing and Burlington Carpool stop.

Totally agreed, the Transitway makes the 19 and 40 much slower. Especially now that the Carlingview ramp is closed. 

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27 minutes ago, Doppelkupplung said:

Totally agreed, the Transitway makes the 19 and 40 much slower. Especially now that the Carlingview ramp is closed. 

When there's no traffic perhaps. But that's not my experience trying to commute to Mississauga, in pre-Covid days.

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2 hours ago, nfitz said:

When there's no traffic perhaps. But that's not my experience trying to commute to Mississauga, in pre-Covid days.

Having taken it almost every day pre COVID, I disagree. To Mississauga 401/403 is way quicker because the rush hour traffic ends at 401 WB @ 427. By the time you get to Renforth/T'Way a 401 bus would be on or close to the 403 SB. They have the HOV lane coming into Hurontario, so really, traffic only affects you when you're cutting across 4 lanes trying to get to the off ramp. "Much slower" or "way quicker" may be an exaggeration on my part but I have seen the difference save me 5-10 mins. 

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17 hours ago, Articulated said:

GO Transit has announced service changes taking effect next month (largely starting on Saturday September 5th or Tuesday September 8th).

Rail changes:

  • Lakeshore East/West increasing to 15-30 minute service during rush hours; off-peak service will remain hourly.

Weekday mid-day service will revert to being half-hourly, with hourly service during the other off-peak periods.

 

More interesting is a major rejigging of the Lakeshore schedules away from the traditional :13/:43 times at Union that had been in place since the launch of GO service in May 1967.

 

Dan

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13 minutes ago, smallspy said:

More interesting is a major rejigging of the Lakeshore schedules away from the traditional :13/:43 times at Union that had been in place since the launch of GO service in May 1967.

What? Wait ... I'm going to have to think about the schedule?  That one mid-afternoon exception where the train always went 10-minutes early was bad enough ...  :)

 

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On 8/17/2020 at 4:50 PM, Articulated said:

https://www.gotransit.com/static_files/gotransit/assets/pdf/TripPlanning/FullSchedules/FS05092020/Table94.pdf

I do not believe it uses the Mississauga Transitway, as neither Renforth nor Dixie Transitway are listed as stops. Which I prefer, as I have found the Transitway to be a much slower trip anytime I've needed to use the 19 or 40. The 40 has actually lost nearly all of its time savings over the all-stops 47 thanks to the addition of the Transitway routing and Burlington Carpool stop.

I'm guessing they were getting enough pushback from passengers wanting a cross-401 route without having to transfer at either Finch or Yorkdale?  I don't know what the schedule for the various routes were like before the pandemic, but reductions in service since would likely have made connections difficult.  If post-secondary classes ever return to normal, I could see this as a benefit to both Sheridan and Centennial College students.

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14 hours ago, smallspy said:

Weekday mid-day service will revert to being half-hourly, with hourly service during the other off-peak periods.

More interesting is a major rejigging of the Lakeshore schedules away from the traditional :13/:43 times at Union that had been in place since the launch of GO service in May 1967.

Dan

Thanks for the corrections and additional notes Dan. I was distracted by both GO and YRT releasing their September service changes on the same day, and neglected to check the schedules, instead relying solely on the description of the changes on GO's website.

The move to break the :13/:43 departures for Lakeshore trains is a bit overdue and welcome. With extra stops and higher ridership causing longer station dwell times, recovery and turnaround times at the ends of the line had shrunk to the bare limit. The 10 minute offset schedule after AM rush was a result of that, westbound trains couldn't make the scheduled departure, causing a cascading effect until they could be "reset" to match the schedule. Now with the new schedule giving 20 minutes at each end, the schedules are consistently timed throughout the day, and operators have enough recovery time to turn the train around and have a necessary break.

4 hours ago, Gil said:

I'm guessing they were getting enough pushback from passengers wanting a cross-401 route without having to transfer at either Finch or Yorkdale?  I don't know what the schedule for the various routes were like before the pandemic, but reductions in service since would likely have made connections difficult.  If post-secondary classes ever return to normal, I could see this as a benefit to both Sheridan and Centennial College students.

This new 94 along with the 45B extension east to Unionville is making me think GO is almost moving away from a hub-and-spoke system to a more direct point-to-point system, similar to how airlines have moved over the past decade or so. So there will be more routes to more places, but service will be less frequent. Some overlapping routes (such as 19 and 94 both going between Square One and Yorkdale, and 19, 27, 34 from Yorkdale to Finch) may offset possibly permanently decreased service.

Btw, Centennial College students do not benefit much, as the 94 does not stop at the college; currently they can take 45/46/47 to Hwy 407 and transfer to 51/51C; now, they can take 94 but need to transfer to TTC. Not sure if it's faster but still a transfer required. Also, not sure how many students from Mississauga attend Centennial; there's many colleges that are closer to there.

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14 hours ago, Articulated said:

Now with the new schedule giving 20 minutes at each end, the schedules are consistently timed throughout the day, and operators have enough recovery time to turn the train around and have a necessary break.

If I'm reading the schedules correctly, it's even more generous, with 35 minutes at either end during half-hourly service, growing to 65 minutes at Oshawa when it's hourly. Another interesting quirk is how one of the evening West Harbour trains turns back east and runs in the same slot it would if it stayed at Aldershot!

There's also a good number of trains silently cancelled, many being counter-peak ones that can't run because of more frequent peak direction service, but some seem to be reverting from revenue to equipment trips for no apparent reason (the first outbound Barrie and Stouffville trips). The Aldershot to Long Branch express is also gone -- without any intermediate stops at say Oakville or Port Credit it couldn't have been very useful.

Also three Kitchener trains have the Etobicoke North stop removed, I'm not sure why.

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18 hours ago, Sid said:

If I'm reading the schedules correctly, it's even more generous, with 35 minutes at either end during half-hourly service, growing to 65 minutes at Oshawa when it's hourly. Another interesting quirk is how one of the evening West Harbour trains turns back east and runs in the same slot it would if it stayed at Aldershot!

That is one of the "features" of the new schedule. GO wanted to run hourly West Harbour trains during the day - along with a bunch of additional service elsewhere - but the Minister told them to cool it. They are trying again for many of those same improvements in October.

 

18 hours ago, Sid said:

There's also a good number of trains silently cancelled, many being counter-peak ones that can't run because of more frequent peak direction service, but some seem to be reverting from revenue to equipment trips for no apparent reason (the first outbound Barrie and Stouffville trips). The Aldershot to Long Branch express is also gone -- without any intermediate stops at say Oakville or Port Credit it couldn't have been very useful.

That first Barrie train isn't a deadhead, three trains are capable of being stored at Bradford. This will be one of them. The other two slots will continue to be used for more long-term equipment storage.

 

18 hours ago, Sid said:

Also three Kitchener trains have the Etobicoke North stop removed, I'm not sure why.

Because they are scheduled to run on tracks 2 or 3, which don't have platform access.

 

Dan

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With GO ramping up their bus services in September, I guess it's safe to assume that the 8100/8200 series DDL would be returning.

Given their long layoff, could it be that most of them might start to appear on routes they've been on a bit earlier to ease them back after their dwell time?

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5 hours ago, newflyerinvero said:

With GO ramping up their bus services in September, I guess it's safe to assume that the 8100/8200 series DDL would be returning.

Given their long layoff, could it be that most of them might start to appear on routes they've been on a bit earlier to ease them back after their dwell time?

Going to be a lot of dead batteries. 

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2 hours ago, smallspy said:

That is one of the "features" of the new schedule. GO wanted to run hourly West Harbour trains during the day - along with a bunch of additional service elsewhere - but the Minister told them to cool it. They are trying again for many of those same improvements in October.

I'm glad to hear it's just the Minister now! Hopefully ridership will recover fast enough for October.

2 hours ago, smallspy said:

That first Barrie train isn't a deadhead, three trains are capable of being stored at Bradford. This will be one of them. The other two slots will continue to be used for more long-term equipment storage.

I meant the trains that will (afaict) deadhead from Union to run the first trips from Aurora (9:57) and Mount Joy (9:12), where there seems to be lots of room to run them as revenue trips with all stops. Though since you say the schedule was cut back from GO's original plans, maybe there would have been some conflicts if it hadn't been?

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5 hours ago, Sid said:

I'm glad to hear it's just the Minister now! Hopefully ridership will recover fast enough for October.

I meant the trains that will (afaict) deadhead from Union to run the first trips from Aurora (9:57) and Mount Joy (9:12), where there seems to be lots of room to run them as revenue trips with all stops. Though since you say the schedule was cut back from GO's original plans, maybe there would have been some conflicts if it hadn't been?

How do you know if those platforms are not occupied during its deadhead or delay other trains as a result? 

 

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5 hours ago, Sid said:

I meant the trains that will (afaict) deadhead from Union to run the first trips from Aurora (9:57) and Mount Joy (9:12), where there seems to be lots of room to run them as revenue trips with all stops. Though since you say the schedule was cut back from GO's original plans, maybe there would have been some conflicts if it hadn't been?

They've been running deadheads in front of and behind service trains to and from Aurora since the mid-day and weekend service started running there. If you go back, you'll see that there are weird 1 hour 10 minute gaps interspersed throughout the normally 1 hour headways - that extra 10 minutes was to slot in a deadhead movement.

 

And no, there isn't enough room to operate them as service trips. They run more-or-less 10 minutes before or after the service trip, in order to have them stage on the appropriate stretch of double-track to allow the opposite-running service train through with no delays. By running them as deadheads, they don't have to worry about (1) having the trains run on schedule at all of the stations and therefore affect the on-time metrics, (2) potentially having a delay at a station, and (3) can run the train to a tighter schedule as it no longer needs to "waste time" at stops.

 

This seems to be the first instance of this same kind of deadhead on the Stouffville Line, and because it is largely 1 track as well it suffers from all of the same scheduling issues as the Barrie Line.

 

Dan

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On 8/19/2020 at 2:47 PM, Sid said:

If I'm reading the schedules correctly, it's even more generous, with 35 minutes at either end during half-hourly service, growing to 65 minutes at Oshawa when it's hourly.

Yes, much more recovery time with the new schedule.  The off-peak round trip running times between Oshawa and Aldershot have been increased from 5 hours (300 minutes) to 5.5 hours (330 minutes).   This requires an increase from 10 to 11 train sets to provide 30 minute headways, and an increase from 5 to 6 train sets when service is hourly during evenings and weekends.   This extra round trip time permits the increase in recovery times at both ends noted above.

I agree with Articulated that schedule adherence for eastbound Lakeshore West trains has been a past issue at times, given the previous off peak recovery time of only 11 minutes allowed for at Aldershot.

 

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2 hours ago, doug_oak said:

Yes, much more recovery time with the new schedule. 

Looking at the times at Exhibition and Danforth, there's a longer dwell in Union than there used to be as well. The upgraded switches around Union station was supposed to make things through Union faster, not slower. And they have generally. Historically there was a scheduled 6-minute dwell ... which they'd changed to 2, without changing the Exhibition/Danforth timings. But in reality, 6 or 7 minutes was becoming more common in my experience.

I'm not sure the need for the extra delay at Union, other than to pad their on-time performance, at the inconvenience of riders.

I've not looked very long at the new Lakeshore times (gosh, that's going to take some getting used to after 50 years of knowing the trains leave 13 or 43 minutes past the hour). How do the rest of the timings look? Have they padded the whole thing?

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35 minutes ago, nfitz said:

I've not looked very long at the new Lakeshore times (gosh, that's going to take some getting used to after 50 years of knowing the trains leave 13 or 43 minutes past the hour). How do the rest of the timings look? Have they padded the whole thing?

Compared to the current schedule, there is no additional running time added to either of Union to Aldershot (65 minutes) or Union to Oshawa (60 minutes).    The additional 30 minutes of round trip schedule time (increase from 300 to 330 minutes) is allocated as follows when there are 11 trains providing 30 minute service:   +18 minutes layover at Aldershot (17 increased to 35 minutes), +8 minutes layover at Oshawa (27 increased to 35 minutes), +2 minutes dwell time in both directions at Union (3 minutes increased to 5 minutes).

In my previous post I referred to 11 minutes of recovery time at Aldershot.   That was the case for the pre-COVID schedules.

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2 hours ago, doug_oak said:

Compared to the current schedule, there is no additional running time added to either of Union to Aldershot (65 minutes) or Union to Oshawa (60 minutes).    The additional 30 minutes of round trip schedule time (increase from 300 to 330 minutes) is allocated as follows when there are 11 trains providing 30 minute service:   +18 minutes layover at Aldershot (17 increased to 35 minutes), +8 minutes layover at Oshawa (27 increased to 35 minutes), +2 minutes dwell time in both directions at Union (3 minutes increased to 5 minutes).

So it's only us Danforth to Exhibition (or similar riders) who got screwed. I was hoping they'd actually cut a couple of minutes once they finished the years of switch upgrades.

The "3 minute" dwell was always "6 minutes" until a few years ago ... those extra 3 minutes are just on paper to pad their on-time stats. Of late, I've seen them even earlier at Union, dwelling for 7 minutes on occasion. So now it will be up to 9 minutes - but scheduled as 5 ...).

Are they still planning to do the final phase of switch upgrades at Union? Or are they done now.

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4 hours ago, doug_oak said:

Compared to the current schedule, there is no additional running time added to either of Union to Aldershot (65 minutes) or Union to Oshawa (60 minutes). 

Interesting ... I missed the earlier (winter 2020?) changes. Looks like they speeded up Lakeshore West and eastbound Lakeshore East by 2-3 minutes ... but added 2-minutes to the Lakeshore East westbound ... I'm guessing the climb up from the lake to Danforth was the biggest issue. And also added an extra minute to the Union Dwell at that time (in reality it had always been 6, but the changed it on paper from 2 to 3).

So now timing changes now, but most are a bit faster than historic.  But travel time from Danforth to Exhibition in each direction has gone from 23 minutes to 26 minutes. In reality, they can do it in 20 minutes, if they are running behind schedule, and don't have to dwell more than the minimum at Union ... well perhaps 21 minutes eastbound climbing the hill to Danforth.

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15 hours ago, nfitz said:

Are they still planning to do the final phase of switch upgrades at Union? Or are they done now.

All of the switches and crossings in the USRC have been replaced.

 

What they are now waiting on is the implementation of the new signal system - which will then allow the higher speeds that the new switches and crossings are capable of. As far as I know, the cutover starts this fall.

 

14 hours ago, nfitz said:

Interesting ... I missed the earlier (winter 2020?) changes. Looks like they speeded up Lakeshore West and eastbound Lakeshore East by 2-3 minutes ... but added 2-minutes to the Lakeshore East westbound ... I'm guessing the climb up from the lake to Danforth was the biggest issue. And also added an extra minute to the Union Dwell at that time (in reality it had always been 6, but the changed it on paper from 2 to 3).

So now timing changes now, but most are a bit faster than historic.  But travel time from Danforth to Exhibition in each direction has gone from 23 minutes to 26 minutes. In reality, they can do it in 20 minutes, if they are running behind schedule, and don't have to dwell more than the minimum at Union ... well perhaps 21 minutes eastbound climbing the hill to Danforth.

It's worse than that.

 

For the last several years, GO has been adding time at various places to the schedule to account for track and station projects.

 

Except that sometimes they "forget" to revert the schedules to where they were before.

 

If you compare today's schedule to one from about 15 years ago, you'll see that they've added 9 minutes of running time westbound (Oshawa to Burlington) and 10 minutes eastbound. And while quite a bit of that can be attributed to the increased ridership and passenger loading, a lot of that is also attributed to a want to "pad the stats" and reduce the late-running of trains.

 

Dan

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11 hours ago, smallspy said:

All of the switches and crossings in the USRC have been replaced.

I seem to recall a discussion about a decade ago, that talked of the original system having (and I'm pulling the numbers out of my distant memory here - no guarantees) 15 mph switches, and first upgrading them to 30 mph, and then 45 mph. What are we at now?

Good to here there's improvements to come with the signalling ... though at the rate we are going, I'm going to be spending more time sat at Union, than actually travelling ... though perhaps one day Danforth (Main) to Exhibition will be more convenient by subway ...

(I'll swear though the crawl from Cherry to Union isn't as bad as it used to be in the 1980s or even early 2000s ... perhaps time moves faster now, ... or I'm just more engrossed in my phone ...)

 

11 hours ago, smallspy said:

If you compare today's schedule to one from about 15 years ago, you'll see that they've added 9 minutes of running time westbound (Oshawa to Burlington) and 10 minutes eastbound. And while quite a bit of that can be attributed to the increased ridership and passenger loading, a lot of that is also attributed to a want to "pad the stats" and reduce the late-running of trains.

Sigh ...

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Had a chance to take the 65F Union Station to East Gwillimbury today. The schedule that is operating right now until September 8th (Barrie line).

Taking Gardiner, Highway 427, Highway 401 to 400 then Rutherford to Rutherford Station, Keele to reach Maple (turning at Major MacKenzie) and then King City (separate stop) turning at King Road, Bathurst, Bloomington, Yonge then Industrial Parkway South to reach Aurora Go Station. 

When taking the 65F from Aurora, operator was asking if anyone needed King, Maple or Rutherford. If no one needed those stations or stops in between those stations, it would go straight to Union. If someone required those stops, they would be transferred to another bus that will serve those three stations or another bus be dispatched to cover that area.

Managing resources with the limited demand over the summer. Some additional buses parked at Aurora Go if needed for the Barrie line. 

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