GO Transit

[Doppelkupplung]

11 hours ago, 110B West Pickering said:

Based on what I’ve been seeing with the super lo’s, drivers will not even let bikes on the front due to extremely low visability, the three times I’ve seen someone with a bike, the drive has instructed the user to hook it in the accable spot with a wheelchair securement. if this is the case, why do they even ship with bike racks

Really? That's odd. I took had a SuperLo on the 21 quite a few times this year, both in the evening and the morning and the drivers didn't say a word about it...I don't recall the visibility being that bad. The drivers do sit quite low, but it's not like a Novabus where the front bumper/rack mount is relatively high compared the seating position of the driver. If the visibility with bikes on the rack was not acceptable then I doubt AD or GOT would have had the racks put on in the first place. Perhaps an overly-cautious driver?

[Oc4526]

Just now, OCTranspo/STO Fan said:

So they have to go in the priority seating area, correct? What happens if a person with a stroller or a wheelchair gets on? Does the person with the bike have to give up the spot?

Correct for placement. 

As for the other not sure.

 

[OC Transpo/STO Fan]

19 minutes ago, Oc4526 said:

Correct for placement. 

As for the other not sure.

 

Something tells me they'll make the person with the stroller or wheelchair wait for the next bus, if the bus is full, and it's after 9 PM, or it's raining outside. Doesn't really make sense for the person to give up the spot if they have nowhere else to put the bike. That's most likely what will happen.

[lip]

Does anyone here think GO will eventually be a customer for this new product:

http://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/a-breakthrough-in-rider-accessibility-and-commuter-rapid-transit-the-new-mci-d45-crt-le-650130043.html

[GTAmissions1]

6 minutes ago, lip said:

Does anyone here think GO will eventually be a customer for this new product:

http://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/a-breakthrough-in-rider-accessibility-and-commuter-rapid-transit-the-new-mci-d45-crt-le-650130043.html

To be honest, even with the usefulness and design, I think Go Transit would prefer the SuperLo double deckers because of the carrying capacity for seated passengers along with accessibility built in. When they are able to carry more passengers with less vehicles, the overall cost per passenger is lower.

Especially when I have seen Go Transit drivers have to leave a few passengers behind (my itinerary is the 68 from Barrie to East Gwillmbury Go, then 65 Union Station Express) because of the direct routes to Union Station Bus Terminal have to pick up the slack from other routes. Along with working to have 75 percent of the fleet with higher capacity vehicles along with a further option, I don't think they would want to change the formula. 

[Shaun]

So is the wheel chair area a separate compartment?

[TheAverageJoe]

59 minutes ago, Shaun said:

So is the wheel chair area a separate compartment?

Yes its below. I am still not liking it less seating plus I would like to see how the Wheelchair passenger would be after a t bone wreck into the side since they would be very low to the ground or even a roll over.

[Doppelkupplung]

2 hours ago, TheAverageJoe said:

Yes its below. I am still not liking it less seating plus I would like to see how the Wheelchair passenger would be after a t bone wreck into the side since they would be very low to the ground or even a roll over.

That's also a good point you bring up, especially a crash on the right side, or even a fire. Considering the fact that occupants in that compartment will be disabled, I wonder how MCI plans to combat that issue, unless the already have. Upon a closer look, the bus seems to have a dual latch emergency release mechanism, although I don't see how this benefits a right side rollover. There are stairs leading to the compartment from the inside, however I don't see how that is a benefit to wheelchair passengers in a rollover.

I think where it lacks in seating it makes up in standing room. Also, there's something that's just a bit weird about this design. Front bumper and lights look super high.

Also, considering the fact that the SuperLos can go nearly anywhere, I don't think GOT has much need for these new models. 

[lip]

Here are some interior pics for some perspective:

To be honest I think GO still has a need for regular coach buses, especially on lower ridership routes. It's simply a waste of money to be running Double Deckers half empty throughout the day. It wouldnt shock me if Metrolinx went to an all DD fleet since they dont mind siphoning off money, but just because they can doesn't mean that it makes sense.

[Doppelkupplung]

41 minutes ago, lip said:

Here are some interior pics for some perspective:

To be honest I think GO still has a need for regular coach buses, especially on lower ridership routes. It's simply a waste of money to be running Double Deckers half empty throughout the day. It wouldnt shock me if Metrolinx went to an all DD fleet since they dont mind siphoning off money, but just because they can doesn't mean that it makes sense.

Wow, the seating spot loss is much bigger than I thought. I still don't think its worth it. I mean, we've been using standard 40-45ft coaches since the 80's and 90's, so why change now? I think the idea of the CRT LE is good despite safety concerns, but does GO really need it? As it is the newest 45 footers we have come with a spot for a wheelchair, and the CRT photos appear to show spots for maybe 1 or 2 more? Is it really beneficial? I don't recall seeing any wheelchair passengers on GO buses lately. Contrary to my previous statement, I do think GO will still need a sizeable 45 footer fleet, but not with the method of this bus.

Also: A rear window? That's a first for an MCI coach, no?

[Shaun]

It would be a good option for customers who need a second door on a coach to speed up boarding. Commuter application. 

[soo8513]

Don't forget the steps and narrow pathway boarding an MCI.  At my age I prefer the 8xxx buses of any series.

[smallspy]

On 10/10/2017 at 11:05 PM, MiWay0310 said:

Wow, the seating spot loss is much bigger than I thought. I still don't think its worth it. I mean, we've been using standard 40-45ft coaches since the 80's and 90's, so why change now? I think the idea of the CRT LE is good despite safety concerns, but does GO really need it? As it is the newest 45 footers we have come with a spot for a wheelchair, and the CRT photos appear to show spots for maybe 1 or 2 more? Is it really beneficial? I don't recall seeing any wheelchair passengers on GO buses lately. Contrary to my previous statement, I do think GO will still need a sizeable 45 footer fleet, but not with the method of this bus.

Also: A rear window? That's a first for an MCI coach, no?

Why change now? Because it can be a 15 minute hit to the schedule to load or unload a wheelchair on a highway coach. This promises to greatly improve on that.

 

The whole point of this is not to allow for more wheelchairs or more seats, but rather to allow them to load and unload in the same amount of time as a regular passenger and still maintain a similar capacity. It wouldn't have necessarily been the way I would have done it, but I'm trusting that MCI did its homework with this design.

 

Dan

[Doppelkupplung]

1 minute ago, smallspy said:

Why change now? Because it can be a 15 minute hit to the schedule to load or unload a wheelchair on a highway coach. This promises to greatly improve on that.

 

The whole point of this is not to allow for more wheelchairs or more seats, but rather to allow them to load and unload in the same amount of time as a regular passenger and still maintain a similar capacity. It wouldn't have necessarily been the way I would have done it, but I'm trusting that MCI did its homework with this design.

 

Dan

They did their usual consulting with a BMW group company (smart)...I believe it was Designworks. It looks....okay, proportions could be a bit better, but we aren't here to discuss the design.

Isn't that 15 minute estimate a bit too generous? I understand it takes time with the in/out of the ramp and strapping in but come on. Especially at major terminals where there are ambassadors guiding and assisting customers with their luggage or directions. As for the in/out boarding obviously it is a benefit, but at major terminals (where the greatest number of passengers board) buses arrive 5 minutes before departure (if the route is starting there) or the schedule is padded to accommodate for passenger loading at an intermediate stop.

You are also cutting into luggage space on the right side of the bus, and I'm pretty sure it's not a good idea not to walk into traffic to load heavy luggage i.e. busy terminals like USBT where there can be many passengers with lots of luggage. I'm also struggling to understand how it is safe in a rollover on the right. 

[smallspy]

2 hours ago, MiWay0310 said:

They did their usual consulting with a BMW group company (smart)...I believe it was Designworks. It looks....okay, proportions could be a bit better, but we aren't here to discuss the design.

Isn't that 15 minute estimate a bit too generous? I understand it takes time with the in/out of the ramp and strapping in but come on. Especially at major terminals where there are ambassadors guiding and assisting customers with their luggage or directions. As for the in/out boarding obviously it is a benefit, but at major terminals (where the greatest number of passengers board) buses arrive 5 minutes before departure (if the route is starting there) or the schedule is padded to accommodate for passenger loading at an intermediate stop.

You are also cutting into luggage space on the right side of the bus, and I'm pretty sure it's not a good idea not to walk into traffic to load heavy luggage i.e. busy terminals like USBT where there can be many passengers with lots of luggage. I'm also struggling to understand how it is safe in a rollover on the right. 

You need to watch to see how long it take to deploy and run the lift. Remember that for a highway coach to get loaded the lift needs to deploy, lower about 5 feet to the ground, get loaded, raise another 5 feet and have the passenger transfer into the vehicle and get tied down before stowing. And then, all that gets repeated in reverse to unload.

 

This vehicle is aimed primarily at commuter operators such as GO, which have far less need for the baggage areas under the floor than a mainline carrier such as Greyhound. Most of the time that space is empty and wasted.

 

Dan

[Doppelkupplung]

25 minutes ago, smallspy said:

You need to watch to see how long it take to deploy and run the lift. Remember that for a highway coach to get loaded the lift needs to deploy, lower about 5 feet to the ground, get loaded, raise another 5 feet and have the passenger transfer into the vehicle and get tied down before stowing. And then, all that gets repeated in reverse to unload.

 

This vehicle is aimed primarily at commuter operators such as GO, which have far less need for the baggage areas under the floor than a mainline carrier such as Greyhound. Most of the time that space is empty and wasted.

 

Dan

I know and acknowledged the time for deployment in my last post. It can't take 15 minutes though, that's ridiculous. Operators are trained for these situations, and they aren't and should not be trained to fall 15 minutes off the mark because of a wheelchair ramp. At major terminals, service assistants/ambassadors can assist with that sort of thing. Its the driver's responsibility in other remote GO stations, but it shouldn't take 15 minutes. You can take the Orion V as an example with its high floor and wheelchair lift. Yes, the mechanism is a bit different but the concept is the same nonetheless. Minus the remote and manual door operation, it is essentially the same time. It should not take 15 minutes for a trained bus operator to deploy, load and unload a wheelchair ramp. Here is an example of an MTA D4500, essentially the same bus that GO operates performing the task that we have been discussing here:

I will contest your statement about less need for luggage, and the frequency of the space being used. Admittedly the space requirement is not as great as an operator like Greyhound, however, at terminals like USBT where there can be many connecting passengers who may not necessarily be commuting but still have luggage. Or even in the summer when families are out and about with strollers and bags etc, which happens quite often. From what I can tell there is no access to storage space from the right, which means the main access point is on the driver side, which can become a hazard. 

I understand that the bus is built to suit operators like GO, and the concept is smart. Increasing boarding speed is a good idea, but I think that isn't an issue often enough for GO on a daily basis, especially considering that they have taken boarding times into account on their schedules. If you look at it from a boarding perspective, you are only saving 2-3 minutes in the grand scheme of things. And I haven't even mentioned factors like fare evasion yet. This combined with the seating loss on the upper deck makes it an unnecessary purchase for GO. Also, people who sit closer to the front of the bus will almost undoubtedly get off at the front, defeating the purpose of efficient boarding. Its just a human thing. You can make as many announcements as you want, but it happens all the time on buses with 2 exits, and you can take every transit system in the GTA as an example, starting with MiWay. 

[Gil]

Stations like Square One where you can have heavy passenger turnover both boarding and disembarking can be easily thrown off by 15 minutes when you throw in a wheelchair, especially depending on when they make themselves known to the driver.  If they wait until the last moment, then you're left re-arranging the passengers on what is usually an already packed bus.  The odd time when the bus has reached capacity inbound to Union at Square One and a relief bus is available it will run express to Union (at this point it has probably arrived late at Square One due to passenger loads at other stations upstream).  But if not, then the driver has to continue along the route informing the rest of the passengers that the bus is full, putting the trip further behind schedule.

There's much to be asked for at Square One that could make the passenger experience better.  The permanent ticket office was a step in the right direction.  Having more of the TVMs which can load money onto your PRESTO card, having balance verifier, digital screens at each platform similar to Union Station which tells you when the next bus will arrive and a simple list of which bus serves which stop would be nice.

[Flalex72]

On 10/9/2017 at 12:48 PM, GTAmissions1 said:

Ottawa's OC Transpo will only allow bikes on-board under these circumstances at the operator's discretion:

1. Inclement weather (rain or thunderstorms)
2. Late evening (usually after 9 PM)
3. Final trip of the night on a bike rack equipped route 

Other transit agencies do allow bikes on-board if the bike rack is unavailable. If the rack is full, usually will have to wait for the next departure unless it is the very last trip or the only bus on-route, then they will usually allow it on to not strand someone. 

I would say there is at least between 15 to 20 bikes pictured. At the same time, as mentioned by other people, it is probably the only available option knowing they wouldn't want to cancel a train trip that is very limited (Niagara bound service) knowing an alternative solution wouldn't be as easy. 

This is off topic for this thread, but the OC Transpo policy is to allow bikes on board at the operator's discretion, and nothing more. Operators are not obligated to allow a bike on board under any circumstance, but not limited from allowing them on at any time.

On 10/9/2017 at 12:48 PM, GTAmissions1 said:

Ottawa's OC Transpo will only allow bikes on-board under these circumstances at the operator's discretion:

1. Inclement weather (rain or thunderstorms)
2. Late evening (usually after 9 PM)
3. Final trip of the night on a bike rack equipped route 

Other transit agencies do allow bikes on-board if the bike rack is unavailable. If the rack is full, usually will have to wait for the next departure unless it is the very last trip or the only bus on-route, then they will usually allow it on to not strand someone. 

I would say there is at least between 15 to 20 bikes pictured. At the same time, as mentioned by other people, it is probably the only available option knowing they wouldn't want to cancel a train trip that is very limited (Niagara bound service) knowing an alternative solution wouldn't be as easy. 

This is off topic for this thread, but the OC Transpo policy is to allow bikes on board at the operator's discretion, and nothing more. Operators are not obligated to allow a bike on board under any circumstance, but not limited from allowing them on at any time.

On 10/9/2017 at 12:48 PM, GTAmissions1 said:

Ottawa's OC Transpo will only allow bikes on-board under these circumstances at the operator's discretion:

1. Inclement weather (rain or thunderstorms)
2. Late evening (usually after 9 PM)
3. Final trip of the night on a bike rack equipped route 

Other transit agencies do allow bikes on-board if the bike rack is unavailable. If the rack is full, usually will have to wait for the next departure unless it is the very last trip or the only bus on-route, then they will usually allow it on to not strand someone. 

I would say there is at least between 15 to 20 bikes pictured. At the same time, as mentioned by other people, it is probably the only available option knowing they wouldn't want to cancel a train trip that is very limited (Niagara bound service) knowing an alternative solution wouldn't be as easy. 

This is off topic for this thread, but the OC Transpo policy is to allow bikes on board at the operator's discretion, and nothing more. Operators are not obligated to allow a bike on board under any circumstance, but not limited from allowing them on at any time.

[Doppelkupplung]

14 minutes ago, Gil said:

Stations like Square One where you can have heavy passenger turnover both boarding and disembarking can be easily thrown off by 15 minutes when you throw in a wheelchair, especially depending on when they make themselves known to the driver.  If they wait until the last moment, then you're left re-arranging the passengers on what is usually an already packed bus.  The odd time when the bus has reached capacity inbound to Union at Square One and a relief bus is available it will run express to Union (at this point it has probably arrived late at Square One due to passenger loads at other stations upstream).  But if not, then the driver has to continue along the route informing the rest of the passengers that the bus is full, putting the trip further behind schedule.

There's much to be asked for at Square One that could make the passenger experience better.  The permanent ticket office was a step in the right direction.  Having more of the TVMs which can load money onto your PRESTO card, having balance verifier, digital screens at each platform similar to Union Station which tells you when the next bus will arrive and a simple list of which bus serves which stop would be nice.

....okay....but this sounds like a very isolated sort of situation; the sort that occurs once in a while. As it is GO has few wheelchair bus passengers, and what you have noted is not something that happens often, as you said. Wheelchair passengers are required to notify GO in advance according to their policy so that the driver can make room; its not the driver's fault if they show up at the last minute asking for a spot with no advance notice. Obviously the drivers need, and very well should be committed to getting them a space on the bus, and there is usually some decent standing room for the 2 who are kicked out of their seats, so it shouldn't be too much of an issue. I don't know how GO deals with situations where the bus is jam packed and a wheelchair requires a spot...anyone know?

[Ed T.]

22 minutes ago, MiWay0310 said:

Wheelchair passengers are required to notify GO in advance according to their policy so that the driver can make room; its not the driver's fault if they show up at the last minute asking for a spot with no advance notice.

That statement is not true. A bit of thought would show that such a policy would be contrary to laws mandating accessibility.

http://www.gotransit.com/public/en/travelling/accessibility.aspx

Quote

If you have confirmed that the stops and transfer locations required for your trip are all accessible (the majority of trips), there is no need to call in advance. We still encourage customers with disabilities to let us know two hours in advance that they will be travelling so that we can provide the best possible customer service.

 

[Streety McCarface]

1 hour ago, Gil said:

Stations like Square One where you can have heavy passenger turnover both boarding and disembarking can be easily thrown off by 15 minutes when you throw in a wheelchair, especially depending on when they make themselves known to the driver.  If they wait until the last moment, then you're left re-arranging the passengers on what is usually an already packed bus.  The odd time when the bus has reached capacity inbound to Union at Square One and a relief bus is available it will run express to Union (at this point it has probably arrived late at Square One due to passenger loads at other stations upstream).  But if not, then the driver has to continue along the route informing the rest of the passengers that the bus is full, putting the trip further behind schedule.

There's much to be asked for at Square One that could make the passenger experience better.  The permanent ticket office was a step in the right direction.  Having more of the TVMs which can load money onto your PRESTO card, having balance verifier, digital screens at each platform similar to Union Station which tells you when the next bus will arrive and a simple list of which bus serves which stop would be nice.

But if there's standing room only, that's all the more reason to just stick with double-decker buses. With regards to the rollover issue, the space at the top is open, so I would think an exit from the roof would be possible with passenger assistance, which would be required in any emergency situation like that. 

[Doppelkupplung]

1 hour ago, Ed T. said:

That statement is not true. A bit of thought would show that such a policy would be contrary to laws mandating accessibility.

http://www.gotransit.com/public/en/travelling/accessibility.aspx

 

Good catch, my bad there; however, I assume it would be a recommendation considering I found that off the same page that you posted above under "Planning your Trip".

What do they do in that scenario if there is no space to accomodate a wheelchair passenger?

[Ed T.]

3 hours ago, MiWay0310 said:

Good catch, my bad there; however, I assume it would be a recommendation considering I found that off the same page that you posted above under "Planning your Trip".

What do they do in that scenario if there is no space to accomodate a wheelchair passenger?

Oh, yes, GO is clearly saying "pretty please, let us know in advance if you'll be needing an accessible ride". But they can't mandate it. There are lawyers out there ready to sue these kinds of cases.

It's a good question what happens if there's no space. I expect that the operator will have to call in, and some situational analysis would need to be done. The optics of leaving behind a wheelchair user, particularly if older, particularly if the weather is bad, are not what Metrolinx would want. A possible start would be to ask for some healthy and able-bodied to give up their seats, and wait for the next bus if it comes to that. However, that's a guess on my part.

On TTC buses, I've seen operators shooing people out of the tiedown areas even if the bus is crowded, and riders cooperate.

[Doppelkupplung]

19 minutes ago, Ed T. said:

Oh, yes, GO is clearly saying "pretty please, let us know in advance if you'll be needing an accessible ride". But they can't mandate it. There are lawyers out there ready to sue these kinds of cases.

It's a good question what happens if there's no space. I expect that the operator will have to call in, and some situational analysis would need to be done. The optics of leaving behind a wheelchair user, particularly if older, particularly if the weather is bad, are not what Metrolinx would want. A possible start would be to ask for some healthy and able-bodied to give up their seats, and wait for the next bus if it comes to that. However, that's a guess on my part.

On TTC buses, I've seen operators shooing people out of the tiedown areas even if the bus is crowded, and riders cooperate.

I think riders should cooperate, especially since its less of a hassle for them to move around rather than somebody in a wheelchair. However, I have never seen this on a GO bus, and I'm sure its very rare.

On another note, (this is a really nitpicky question) why were the bottom strips of some of the first couple 8000s painted black and not grey like the rest of the fleet?

[smallspy]

19 hours ago, MiWay0310 said:

I know and acknowledged the time for deployment in my last post. It can't take 15 minutes though, that's ridiculous. Operators are trained for these situations, and they aren't and should not be trained to fall 15 minutes off the mark because of a wheelchair ramp. At major terminals, service assistants/ambassadors can assist with that sort of thing. Its the driver's responsibility in other remote GO stations, but it shouldn't take 15 minutes. You can take the Orion V as an example with its high floor and wheelchair lift. Yes, the mechanism is a bit different but the concept is the same nonetheless.

It doesn't necessarily take 15 minutes. But they've found that they need to budget 15 minutes into the schedule to allow for it to happen. The example of an Orion V is a poor one as well, as the driver can do it from his seat - that's simply not the case on a highway coach.

 

You also seem to be missing the fact that if it happens that it requires it being done twice on the trip. They don't just load the passenger and have them ride around all day. They will be disembarking at their destination.

 

19 hours ago, MiWay0310 said:

I will contest your statement about less need for luggage, and the frequency of the space being used. Admittedly the space requirement is not as great as an operator like Greyhound, however, at terminals like USBT where there can be many connecting passengers who may not necessarily be commuting but still have luggage. Or even in the summer when families are out and about with strollers and bags etc, which happens quite often. From what I can tell there is no access to storage space from the right, which means the main access point is on the driver side, which can become a hazard.

Contest it all you want, you're still wrong. The fact of the matter is that on average a highway coach in commuter service is only going to have a small fraction of the luggage of one being used in mainline service. Yeah, there are situations where there needs to be luggage on a GO run - why do you think that they spec'd the design of the SuperLos with the baggage section at the back? But as a general rule? Nope, they'll only need one luggage bin, rather than the three.

 

Dan