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Alexander Dennis

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51 minutes ago, Imgursdownvote4love said:

I take that back. Doesn't NFI already own Blue Bird? That would mean only Grande West.

No.

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Cerberus Capital owned both NABI and Blue Bird (since 2006), the latter through its Traxis Group affiliate. Cerberus sold NABI to New Flyer.  In 2014, Traxis sold much of the stock to Hennessey Capital, which took Blue Bird public. In 2016, American Securites purchased the remaining shares from Traxis, and it still owns about 43% of shares.

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Had a question regarding motors in MCIs and SuperLos, or any E500 for that matter.

Why is it that MCIs, or even Prevosts are regularly offered with higher displacement/higher power options, i.e. C13 in the past, ISX12, S60/DD13, D13 etc.? All those have displacements well over 9L, whereas in North America the only offering is now the L9 at 380hp for the E500. The reason I ask is because the GVW for the E500 is anywhere from 9-13,000lbs more than an MCI. 

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15 hours ago, Doppelkupplung said:

Had a question regarding motors in MCIs and SuperLos, or any E500 for that matter.

Why is it that MCIs, or even Prevosts are regularly offered with higher displacement/higher power options, i.e. C13 in the past, ISX12, S60/DD13, D13 etc.? All those have displacements well over 9L, whereas in North America the only offering is now the L9 at 380hp for the E500. The reason I ask is because the GVW for the E500 is anywhere from 9-13,000lbs more than an MCI. 

A couple of things to consider.....

 

One: displacement is only part of the answer when looking at the options. There are (and were) many, many different output options for all of those engines listed, and despite the fact that a property could spec a "larger" engine, they would frequently use it rated the same as a smaller engine. (This then leads into the discussion of things such as duty cycle, compression, and ultimately engine longevity.)

 

Two: on the Enviros, packaging might be an issue. There is a huge amount of room underneath the floor of an MCI or Prevost which allows for many different engine options. There may be considerably less in an Enviro, and certain ones of the engines you'd listed are well known to be quite tall (Series 60) and thus have potential packaging and installation issues. Again, all things being equal, an inline engine will be taller than one built in a V-configuration but it will also be narrower as well. Weight can also be an issue: Alexander Dennis may spec physically smaller but higher output engines as a way to help meet the GVW requirements of the location where they run.

 

Three: A lot of the MCI and Prevosts on the road are purchased for line-haul service or customization packages. Line-haul services seem to generally purchase larger but de-tuned engines in an effort to increase the service life of the engine. Customized vehicles frequently are used to tow trailers, and as they are not fleet vehicles standardization is not nearly as much of an issue. They will frequently prioritize power and performance at the cost of fuel use.

 

Dan

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1 hour ago, alexb320 said:

https://www.masstransitmag.com/bus/vehicles/press-release/21107861/alexander-dennis-inc-alexander-dennis-enviro200-starts-sixmonth-revenue-trial-with-marta

Interesting small article. Makes me wonder if the Enviro200 will catch on with American agencies especially with complying with the Buy American.

Thanks for that. Very interesting given that MARTA has a fleet of Grande West Vicinity's as well. 

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Curious on the NA ADL Enviro200 and older NFI MiDi, does anyone have observations as to how they've been performing so far? I haven't really heard anything good or bad since they've been rolled out.

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On 9/23/2019 at 9:10 AM, smallspy said:

A couple of things to consider.....

 

One: displacement is only part of the answer when looking at the options. There are (and were) many, many different output options for all of those engines listed, and despite the fact that a property could spec a "larger" engine, they would frequently use it rated the same as a smaller engine. (This then leads into the discussion of things such as duty cycle, compression, and ultimately engine longevity.)

 

Two: on the Enviros, packaging might be an issue. There is a huge amount of room underneath the floor of an MCI or Prevost which allows for many different engine options. There may be considerably less in an Enviro, and certain ones of the engines you'd listed are well known to be quite tall (Series 60) and thus have potential packaging and installation issues. Again, all things being equal, an inline engine will be taller than one built in a V-configuration but it will also be narrower as well. Weight can also be an issue: Alexander Dennis may spec physically smaller but higher output engines as a way to help meet the GVW requirements of the location where they run.

 

Three: A lot of the MCI and Prevosts on the road are purchased for line-haul service or customization packages. Line-haul services seem to generally purchase larger but de-tuned engines in an effort to increase the service life of the engine. Customized vehicles frequently are used to tow trailers, and as they are not fleet vehicles standardization is not nearly as much of an issue. They will frequently prioritize power and performance at the cost of fuel use.

 

Dan

A follow up question that I forgot to ask:

All the motors I listed that power MCIs employ the use of a jake/engine brake. Personally speaking, and I could be totally wrong, but I’ve never heard an engine brake on an Enviro. Why is this? If anything it’s just as, if not more helpful due to the increased weight no? 

What my quick research found was that Jacobs did offer the compression brake on the ISL. Is it not offered with the L9 or is an exhaust brake used?

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2 hours ago, Doppelkupplung said:

A follow up question that I forgot to ask:

All the motors I listed that power MCIs employ the use of a jake/engine brake. Personally speaking, and I could be totally wrong, but I’ve never heard an engine brake on an Enviro. Why is this? If anything it’s just as, if not more helpful due to the increased weight no? 

What my quick research found was that Jacobs did offer the compression brake on the ISL. Is it not offered with the L9 or is an exhaust brake used?

You’re forgetting the other way to skin a cat is with a transmission, or even a driveline mounted eddy current retarder. Outcome is the same, and much quieter.

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6 minutes ago, Bus_Medic said:

You’re forgetting the other way to skin a cat is with a transmission, or even a driveline mounted eddy current retarder. Outcome is the same, and much quieter.

You’re right I had a feeling after I posted that it would be something to do with the trans.

So I take it MCIs don’t use transmission retarders? Any reason why? 

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1 hour ago, Doppelkupplung said:

You’re right I had a feeling after I posted that it would be something to do with the trans.

So I take it MCIs don’t use transmission retarders? Any reason why? 

GO’s ? I suppose not, customer preference I guess. MCI certainly sells many, many others with retarders. That I can vouch for.

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13 hours ago, Doppelkupplung said:

So I take it MCIs don’t use transmission retarders? Any reason why? 

GO's earlier deliveries of D4500s most certainly came with retarders installed.

 

Perhaps in testing, GO found that the Jake brakes were more effective to a lower speed? Or maybe with the new powertrain choices a retarder was an extra-cost item? I honestly don't know.

 

Dan

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