Buurin Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 This is a Letters on Metro today: Streetcars no longer neededI'm not sure why in the world would our city keep running old-fashioned vehicles known as streetcars. Streeetcars only create nuisance; their maneuvers are restricted and do not move as fast as buses. If anything happens on the road such as an accident, streetcars get stuck and cannot adjust to the rapidly changing road conditions except through the designated lanes. If for instance, an accident happens on the road, a bus can adjust quickly to the road conditions and manoeuvre accordingly and take necessary steps such as short cuts and change in the direction and so on. But streetcars would only get stuck and can never do anything except to wait until the roads are cleared. This sometimes takes hours or days. Keeping streetcars in a busy city like Toronto could jeopardize the safety of both commuters and other bystanders sometimes. I have seen with my own eyes on many occasions when streetcars try to stop and other vehicles drive fast to overtake the streetcars without paying attention to the passengers offloading or trying to get on the vehicle. - Abubakar N. Kasim, Toronto What's your opinion on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Parsons Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 This is a Letters on Metro today: What's your opinion on this? People need to learn how to drive... And buses wouldn't be able to handle the loads effectively. Indeed, buses could end up costing more than streetcars. When you consider a greater number of buses (assuming 40' buses) would be needed to replace the streetcars, and the extra costs for the operators wages who are operating all the extra buses. I would imagine upwards of 300 buses might be needed... maybe more... to replace the streetcars. And what if oil prices raise dramatically (not that they haven't all ready!). The TTC has already cried about that... now they would need diesel fuel for 300 more buses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Promagstyle Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 This is what identifies our city, Toronto. Our Streetcars, we used to have those PCC Streetcars which were very attractive. The sound of the streetcars rummbling through the intersections and the lights going on and off in barber shops, the normal "honk honk" and "ding ding." of the streetcar you hear along Queen Sts. I should recommand that the streetcars stay in Toronto, or develop some kind of car/rail vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captaintrolley Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 What's your opinion on this? Typical uninformed diatribe. Yes, people have to learn how to drive better. Martin has summed it up very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RYANBRT Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 Trams have been part of Toronto since the 19th century. There was a plan to abandon them in the 60's and it was met with strong opposition. This person is obviously new to the city. And it seems he has little clue about city based transit, as there are many cities in the world that have street-running LRT systems, or have recently built systems. Like Parsons said, the streetcars are not the problem, it is the driver's poor driving skills. Buses will not improve anything. In fact, it has been proven that converting rail services to bus service is detrimential to ridership, and service quality. Keep the streetcars. Well actually replace them with newer vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greater Golden Horseshoe Transit Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 - Keep streetcars in dedicated Right-of-ways whenever possible. Having dedicated transit lanes keeps service more reliable. - Buses don't have the capacity of a streetcar. Toronto also doesn't have the room of money available to replace their streetcar network with elevated or underground services. - Streetcars are historically part of Toronto, shouldn't lose them. - It's almost never the fault of streetcars for accidents Having said the above... - The streetcar network isn't wheelchair accessible, and should be (future replacement order??). - Streetcars aren't the means to end all transit problems - Other rapid transit service options are available for other appropriate locations (ie. Subways, BRT, Monorails etc.) but it all boils down to 1) is there room for it? AND 2) is ther money to build it? - Streetcars may not be at fault for accidents, but there will ALWAYS be tons of bad drivers so why take the risk in installing NEW at-grade services in-street? My two cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rocket 191 Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 You wouldn't ask San Francisco to give up its cable cars. ----- When streets aren't wide enough to build a Spadina-style right-of-way, like Queen Street, we could go to a more radical solution... We build a car tunnel underneath Queen Street from Roncesvalles to Woodbine, and force all auto traffic to use the tunnel. Ramps will allow the cars to access intersections on ground level. Then, we extend the sidewalks into what used to be street to create a pedestrian promenade, wide bike lanes, and rapid transit in a car free environment. You could also encorporate underground parking lots in the tunnels, solving the downtown parking problem. It will likely never happen, but it's nice to dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buurin Posted September 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 Typical uninformed diatribe. Yes, people have to learn how to drive better. Martin has summed it up very well. I hope you're not talking about me. I simply posted what I read on Metro today to raise a discussion. You wouldn't ask San Francisco to give up its cable cars. ----- When streets aren't wide enough to build a Spadina-style right-of-way, like Queen Street, we could go to a more radical solution... We build a car tunnel underneath Queen Street from Roncesvalles to Woodbine, and force all auto traffic to use the tunnel. Ramps will allow the cars to access intersections on ground level. Then, we extend the sidewalks into what used to be street to create a pedestrian promenade, wide bike lanes, and rapid transit in a car free environment. You could also encorporate underground parking lots in the tunnels, solving the downtown parking problem. It will likely never happen, but it's nice to dream. FWIW there's a picture of Orion VII Hybrid running alongside those cable cars among Orion's press releases. Driving all auto traffic on Queen underground is a stratospherically tall order. Businesses along Queen are all going to cry. And there likely aren't enough space to make it happen. If you ask me, I'd like to see a return of trolleys to Toronto in Vancouver-esque E40LFR-style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ailsa-Volvo B55 Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 “Keeping streetcars in a busy city like Toronto could jeopardize the safety of both commuters and other bystanders sometimes. I have seen with my own eyes on many occasions when streetcars try to stop and other vehicles drive fast to overtake the streetcars without paying attention to the passengers offloading or trying to get on the vehicle.” I don't think he realized that it's the drivers' fault on passing a streetcar that had start loading/offloading passengers..... I am a driver myself and everytime I drive on the streets it always makes me wonder how some people can get a driver's license based on their driving styles, are driver's licenses cheap to buy these days? Mr. Abubakar N. Kasim really should look at other cities with streetcar/tram system first before writing the letter. Take Hong Kong for example, the tram system is 100 years old and there are not many tram-related traffic problems caused, sure parts of the tracks are in their own right-of-way but the rest are all on roads shared with other road vehicles. If you've ever been to Hong Kong you would know the traffic conditions there makes Toronto look like child's play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpobrien Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 “Keeping streetcars in a busy city like Toronto could jeopardize the safety of both commuters and other bystanders sometimes. I have seen with my own eyes on many occasions when streetcars try to stop and other vehicles drive fast to overtake the streetcars without paying attention to the passengers offloading or trying to get on the vehicle.” I don't think he realized that it's the drivers' fault on passing a streetcar that had start loading/offloading passengers..... I am a driver myself and everytime I drive on the streets it always makes me wonder how some people can get a driver's license based on their driving styles, are driver's licenses cheap to buy these days? Mr. Abubakar N. Kasim really should look at other cities with streetcar/tram system first before writing the letter. Take Hong Kong for example, the tram system is 100 years old and there are not many tram-related traffic problems caused, sure parts of the tracks are in their own right-of-way but the rest are all on roads shared with other road vehicles. If you've ever been to Hong Kong you would know the traffic conditions there makes Toronto look like child's play. Don't like streetcars? Go live somewhere else! I think we should get rid of some auto drivers instead I couldn't imagine a Toronto without it's red rockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GM Classic 6247 Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 I think we should get rid of some auto drivers instead More likely they're going to get rid of themselves. Drivers these days especially in the GTA are awful, they're not just aggressive like New York drivers, they just plain lack the ability to drive which is frankly worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wil9402 Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 If you ask me, I'd like to see a return of trolleys to Toronto in Vancouver-esque E40LFR-style. I do too. We should keep the streetcar system, possibly expanded it (some route off the top of my head are the proposed routes in 1997, Dufferin south of Bloor, Ossington South of Bloor and Coxwell south of Danforth and also Parliament) and also introuduce a New trolley system possibly using the same routes that were trolley routes before 1991 (e.g. 6 Bay, 63 Ossington, 47 Landsdowne, 74 Mt. Pleasent, etc.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RYANBRT Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 Vancouver drivers make Toronto drivers look like professionals. It's scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpobrien Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 Vancouver drivers make Toronto drivers look like professionals. It's scary. Yes, please bring back the trolley buses. It was a crime to scrap them in the first place, especially with the rising fuel costs and polution problems these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest superhero Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 Vancouver drivers make Toronto drivers look like professionals. It's scary. How dare you compare the greatest city's drivers to a city like VANCOUVER's... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLRV4037 Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 The funny thing I find about this, is that he says buses are faster than streetcars. This may be the case say if you put a streetcar and a bus side by side and had a drag race, but in downtown, streetcars are actually faster than buses. Just ride the gap bus once in a while, and youll see what I mean. A bus could never handle the load a streetcar does. You would need a replacement of 2 to 3 to even come close. and thats just for a CLRV. We should go back to the 40s and 50s, when a PCC could pretty much out accelerate anything. The 2 we have now, especially 4549 still gives some people a run for their money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion VIII Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 We should go back to the 40s and 50s, when a PCC could pretty much out accelerate anything. The 2 we have now, especially 4549 still gives some people a run for their money. Have you ever ridden 4600 at HCRR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion V Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 The funny thing I find about this, is that he says buses are faster than streetcars. This may be the case say if you put a streetcar and a bus side by side and had a drag race, but in downtown, streetcars are actually faster than buses. Just ride the gap bus once in a while, and youll see what I mean. A bus could never handle the load a streetcar does. You would need a replacement of 2 to 3 to even come close. and thats just for a CLRV. We should go back to the 40s and 50s, when a PCC could pretty much out accelerate anything. The 2 we have now, especially 4549 still gives some people a run for their money. The PCCs accelerate faster than CLRVs? What about the Witts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCW Metrobus Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 Vancouver drivers make Toronto drivers look like professionals. It's scary. Especially in Richmond. My god, I learned to drive in Victoria, and the first time I took to the streets in Vancouver, I was shocked as it was the first time I was having to deal with people's incompetence from behind the wheel! My two bits, keep the streetcars. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to get rid of them, they're clean vehicles and they are a firmly cemented piece of Toronto's culture. For stop and go traffic in the downtown core, it is especially senseless to get rid of streetcars and replace them with buses that will spend over 50% of their time idling in stationary traffic, spewing out fumes. Preposterous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captaintrolley Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 I hope you're not talking about me. I simply posted what I read on Metro today to raise a discussion. No, I was not referring to you , I was in fact referring to that press release Don't like streetcars? Go live somewhere else! I think we should get rid of some auto drivers instead I couldn't imagine a Toronto without it's red rockets. The first paragraph in Ailsa-Volvo B55 statement was a quote from the press release. Ailsa-Volvo B55 is in favor of keeping the streetcars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallspy Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 The PCCs accelerate faster than CLRVs? What about the Witts? CLRV's are faster, but have more steps of acceleration so that they're smoother, and have the potential to creep without jerking. Witts are considerably slower than PCC's. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Parsons Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 I'd would be curious to hear the opinions of those who voted for diesels or hybrids instead of streetcars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion V Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 They should've also kept the trolley system as well since they also run with zero emission. Extend as much of the streetcar lines as possible (cough*511 to St Clair West*cough) and keep as much trolley routes as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GM Classic 6247 Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 How dare you compare the greatest city's drivers to a city like VANCOUVER's... Greatest City's drivers? What have you been smoking? If you spent at least 1 month driving in the GTA you can safely say that our drivers are just as incompetent. Plus if you've been to Vancouver, despite the somewhat insane drivers its a much nicer city than Toronto. Most of Toronto's drivers that do get into an accident with a streetcar tend to be totally uneducated in dealing with them. A large amount of driving schools teach their students only how to pass the road tests not how to drive safely. Your chances of encountering a streetcar during the road test is very unlikely considering the Ministry's road test locations in Toronto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buurin Posted September 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 The people have spoken. Today's response to that letter (it's NOT a press release, and neither are these): I have to disagree with Mr. Kasim. I ride and have been riding the Queen Street line every day, for most of my life. The streetcar is one of the best modes of transport this city has to offer. Bad weather, no problem, frequent service, and very large! They may not be the fastest, but they are for some reason friendly. Another reply says we should reduce fuel use, not increase it by introducing more buses, with Earth being the warmest it has been in 12000 years. Trolleys are best of both worlds. Bring in Vancouver style E40LFRs as 43xx and it's prefect! (Our D40LFs are 73xx) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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