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2 hours ago, Shaun said:

Is there something about the configuration of the YRT fleet that makes the ride so jerky?

Its not the operator because almost every bus is like that and I can't blame it on new flyer because I rode on Nova equipment and found the same. 

I would take a guess and say that Allison does a better job of providing a smoother ride.  

But is that the answer? Does anyone else feel the same way?

Depends where the jerky ride is coming from, YRT uses Voith and for the most part it’s a smooth transmission until it gets “tired” and will sometimes slam between gears ( nowhere as bad as ZF ), other factors could be a rougher suspension or in the case of their new flyers the operator can open them while moving however the interlock will catch almost at a stop and slam the bus, Novas don’t open until stopped. 
 

the jerky ride Can also be caused by the brake hold feature grabbing the bus when stopping which happens on the Xcelsiors 

Just now, ZümmyZüm said:

Depends where the jerky ride is coming from, YRT uses Voith and for the most part it’s a smooth transmission until it gets “tired” and will sometimes slam between gears ( nowhere as bad as ZF ), other factors could be a rougher suspension or in the case of their new flyers the operator can open the door while  moving however the interlock will catch almost at a stop and slam the bus, Novas don’t open until stopped. 
 

the jerky ride Can also be caused by the brake hold feature grabbing the bus when stopping which happens on the Xcelsiors 

 

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13 hours ago, Shaun said:

Is there something about the configuration of the YRT fleet that makes the ride so jerky?

Its not the operator because almost every bus is like that and I can't blame it on new flyer because I rode on Nova equipment and found the same. 

I would take a guess and say that Allison does a better job of providing a smoother ride.  

But is that the answer? Does anyone else feel the same way?

 

11 hours ago, ZümmyZüm said:

Depends where the jerky ride is coming from, YRT uses Voith and for the most part it’s a smooth transmission until it gets “tired” and will sometimes slam between gears ( nowhere as bad as ZF ), other factors could be a rougher suspension or in the case of their new flyers the operator can open them while moving however the interlock will catch almost at a stop and slam the bus, Novas don’t open until stopped. 
 

the jerky ride Can also be caused by the brake hold feature grabbing the bus when stopping which happens on the Xcelsiors 

 

Iiiiiif I remember properly, York has the retarder activating as soon as the operator's foot is off the accelerator. Could that be a contributing factor?

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That could be it. It feels like go stop go stop.

It would be better to program it so that the first 1/8 of the brake pedal being depressed would trigger the retarder, before the service brake is activated. 

I don't find it as bad with the VIVA fleet but that's probably due to the fact that it stops less. 

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1 hour ago, Waiting for 30 Minutes said:

 

 

Iiiiiif I remember properly, York has the retarder activating as soon as the operator's foot is off the accelerator. Could that be a contributing factor?

Ah that’s true their retarder is set off the accelerator

 

1 hour ago, Shaun said:

That could be it. It feels like go stop go stop.

It would be better to program it so that the first 1/8 of the brake pedal being depressed would trigger the retarder, before the service brake is activated. 

I don't find it as bad with the VIVA fleet but that's probably due to the fact that it stops less. 

Off the brake can also be rough, the agency needs to set and maintain the retarder so it doesn’t have an aggressive kickdown. VIVA probably gets more care and attention for the brand plus on a 60ft you don’t feel it as much 

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I find the Xcelsior brakes are not as smooth as the other buses. It's hard to explain, you really have to drive the buses to understand what I mean. Its like how the hell did they go from the smooth brakes of the D40LFs to the XD40?

For the Novabuses and the older New Flyers, the brakes respond as you want them to. As you step on the brake and gradually push harder, the brakes respond accordingly to how hard you are pressing just like a car would. Because the brakes actually depress as you step on them, it allows for the bus to come to a gradual and smooth stop.

For the Xcelsiors, I find their brakes feel more like stiff planks that don't really depress much. Because of this, there's either light braking or harsh braking and no in-between because the brake pedal doesn't really depress as much as the other buses owing to its stiffness.

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York Region has opened the bids and tender process for the Operations and Maintenance contract of their upcoming South-East division at Orlando yard, where the VIVA BRT division and the current Southeast division will be merged into one.

 

https://york.bidsandtenders.ca/Module/Tenders/en/Tender/Detail/b9421957-1eeb-4680-bbf0-91b648a13a43

 

It will be very interesting to see who is awarded this contract, especially since Miller will no longer have the leverage of owning the yard and maintenance shop, like it currently does at 8050 Woodbine Avenue,  which previously resulted in contract awards and extensions for 20 years based on property ownership alone. 

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2 hours ago, TransitMotorcoach said:

York Region has opened the bids and tender process for the Operations and Maintenance contract of their upcoming South-East division at Orlando yard, where the VIVA BRT division and the current Southeast division will be merged into one.

 

https://york.bidsandtenders.ca/Module/Tenders/en/Tender/Detail/b9421957-1eeb-4680-bbf0-91b648a13a43

 

It will be very interesting to see who is awarded this contract, especially since Miller will no longer have the leverage of owning the yard and maintenance shop, like it currently does at 8050 Woodbine Avenue,  which previously resulted in contract awards and extensions for 20 years based on property ownership alone. 

Reading the documents and how the current capacity is 296 40 ft regular buses which there is plans to provision 55 Orlando Avenue to accommodate 420 40 ft regular buses to take in the buses from Southeast while handling the rapid transit functions of Viva fleet. 

Off-hand I know that already handle 90/90B Leslie buses at the BRT Division on Orlando Avenue since Southeast yard doesn't have the capacity to handle articulated buses.

Having a region owned garage definitely brought in more bidders to bid on the operations contract. As you mentioned, the contractor owned yard gives more leverage into renewal if the region can't find a suitable place to store their buses once done operations for the day. Dealing with storing buses on the available site.

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On 10/14/2021 at 9:23 PM, York Transit said:

I find the Xcelsior brakes are not as smooth as the other buses. It's hard to explain, you really have to drive the buses to understand what I mean. Its like how the hell did they go from the smooth brakes of the D40LFs to the XD40?

For the Novabuses and the older New Flyers, the brakes respond as you want them to. As you step on the brake and gradually push harder, the brakes respond accordingly to how hard you are pressing just like a car would. Because the brakes actually depress as you step on them, it allows for the bus to come to a gradual and smooth stop.

For the Xcelsiors, I find their brakes feel more like stiff planks that don't really depress much. Because of this, there's either light braking or harsh braking and no in-between because the brake pedal doesn't really depress as much as the other buses owing to its stiffness.

New Flyer uses a brake systems company called “AIRWOLF” which are similar to the feeling of a car. Stiff and very reactive with just the tap of the foot.

They started a partnership with this company in late 2012 I believe.

That’s probably the reason you notice the difference. The early year Xcelsior buses feel a lot different and more normal braking.

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Is it just me or is 99/98 faster than Viva BRT? All of the schedules point me to take the local bus over BRT. 

Wll VIVA ever be extended to Green Lane? Looks like there is more and more development pushing north. 

Why are there no routes going north from Green Lane towards Bradford along Yonge? The GO bus takes an indirect route.

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14 minutes ago, Shaun said:

Is it just me or is 99/98 faster than Viva BRT? All of the schedules point me to take the local bus over BRT. 

98/99 does tend to have a fairly aggressive running time, in order to minimize the number of buses required for the service. I have also tended to find that Viva schedules have more padding in the evening; this might be because of a number of factors, including a philosophy of having little change in travel time throughout the day due to the dedicated lanes, with most of the time savings due to fewer stops for passengers (and fewer red lights at cross-streets), as well as a general holdover of runtimes from early evening service (it's logistically impossible to be continuously modifying the schedule to match traffic conditions at each individual hour of the day).

14 minutes ago, Shaun said:

Wll VIVA ever be extended to Green Lane? Looks like there is more and more development pushing north. 

The long-term plans for Viva do have an extension of Viva Blue north and east to East Gwillimbury GO; the timelines for future expansion have been in flux for a number of years due to budgetary constraints, and COVID has pushed any further expansions (including Viva Silver and the realignment of Viva Green onto Don Mills/Leslie) further into the future with no fixed dates for implementation.

14 minutes ago, Shaun said:

Why are there no routes going north from Green Lane towards Bradford along Yonge? The GO bus takes an indirect route.

Route 52 Holland Landing currently serves the area north of Green Lane, although it's been reduced to rush hours only as a result of COVID-related cutbacks.

North of Green Lane, Yonge Street/Highway 11 becomes a thoroughfare with very little development along it, and is very inhospitable to pedestrians; the community area is to the north, along Yonge Street rather than Highway 11, which is why both YRT 52 and GO 68 routes divert off of Highway 11 through this part.

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21 hours ago, Shaun said:

Is it just me or is 99/98 faster than Viva BRT? All of the schedules point me to take the local bus over BRT. 

Wll VIVA ever be extended to Green Lane? Looks like there is more and more development pushing north. 

Why are there no routes going north from Green Lane towards Bradford along Yonge? The GO bus takes an indirect route.

The Region is currently doing infrastructure work on Yonge north of Davis in preparation for transit lane construction, so the expansion to EG GO is underway. 

Route 52 goes up toward the cut-off with Holland Landing and Bradford, there's not much in that area right now except for a hotel. There's development coming along the road leading into Bradford however.

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On 10/18/2021 at 9:46 PM, Shaun said:

Is it just me or is 99/98 faster than Viva BRT? All of the schedules point me to take the local bus over BRT. 

Wll VIVA ever be extended to Green Lane? Looks like there is more and more development pushing north. 

Why are there no routes going north from Green Lane towards Bradford along Yonge? The GO bus takes an indirect route.

The current run schedules for 98/99 are very tight, especially north of Bernard  and quite often, we are delayed because of it. Going northbound, waiting for the advance green at Yonge and Davis to go left, that delays us too. Not to mention only having 3 minutes of recovery time at Green Lane.

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21 hours ago, tommike said:

yrt should send all eletric buses back. they fail in how they run them.

they put them out and cant have run all day then it a fail by them not the bus.

 

There are a number of factors for YRT running these buses:

- This is a pilot program meant to "test the grounds" with electric busses and their capabilities across Canada (hence the name "Pan-Canadian Electric-Bus Demonstration and Integration Trial). 

- These buses are still "new" technology, only having been in active service around North America for less than 10 years. Transit agencies and bus manufacturers are still learning how to improve the technology (just the same as regular electric car manufacturers).

- YRT originally stuck the eBusses on routes 55 and 44 (both with easy access to the rapid charging station at Newmarket Terminal), but have been expanding their use on many YRT North routes, showing progress in their comfort with running them on routes away from a charging station (especially routes 50, 96 and Aurora routes).

- YRT appears to be focusing on keeping these buses out primarily during busy periods (morning and evening), notably since bus service in northern York Region is significantly cut compared to pre-pandemic service levels. The service has generally been consistent during weekdays (excerpt from October 22nd):

- 1911 ran from 5:16 AM to 9:15 AM and then 2:46 PM to 8:21 PM.

- 1912 ran from 6:05 AM to 8:09 AM and then 2:03 PM to 6:56 PM.

- 1921 ran one route 44 routing in the morning run, then 3:05 PM to 6:30 PM.

- 1922 ran from 6:02 AM to 9:36 AM and then 3:24 PM to 8:23 PM.

- 2101 ran from 4:39 AM to 10:47 AM and then 2;09 PM to 8:09 PM.

- 2102 ran from 6:55 AM to 12:41 PM then 4:26 PM to 8:32 PM.

- 2103 ran from 5:48 AM to 8:48 AM and then 2:05 PM to 7:49 PM.

That's 7 out of the 9 electric busses (in active service) running. As things continue to improve, suspended services resume, and YRT gets more comfortable with the scheduling and operation of these busses, I'm sure we'll see them out more. So, overall, seems like YRT is doing fine with them?

 

 

 

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21 hours ago, tommike said:

no they not if they not run a e bus all day? then it not real test? it show that e buses cant run ib real bus timed and also all the buses run mostly with anyone im the north.

They're slowly working the busses up in use; operating longer schedules on lengthier routes at a gradual pace.

You also have to consider that they only have 1 charging station available at Newmarket Terminal. The bus schedules have to be timed so they have a chance to recharge when necessary while not holding up the other electric fleet if they need charging. At 6 minutes (correct me if I'm wrong) per bus to charge, it adds up if multiple busses need charging around the same time.

This is all a learning curve for YRT, to quote them:

We are working towards purchasing more electric buses in the future, but this will take time, further testing and research, and budget approvals. The electric bus trial will allow us the opportunity to gain more knowledge and experience on electric bus technology, which will inform research and decisions on the purchase of additional electric buses.

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I think before they decide whether to buy more of those buses they need to work on improving service as it is in the northern part of York Region. Currently the infrequent bus frequencies are frustrating for trying to get to anywhere. To properly run a transit system schedules should be designed so that buses not necessarily connect but at least run on a regular frequency. So buses that run every 10 minutes or better, buses that run every 10 minutes, buses running every 15 minutes, buses every 20 minutes, buses every 30 minutes or hourly. Routes that run on headways of 18 or 34, or 42 makes it really hard to plan a trip. You have a bus running every 36 minutes and you need to connect to a bus that runs every 53 minutes, could mean really long waits between buses. I have long advocated and even talked with planners at YRT about changing schedules to run at better times. Currently there are certain routes that run on very odd frequencies. Part of that is they have tried to push the VIVA buses to run with the bulk of riders, but the problem is feeder buses have such poor frequency. One of the reasons I was told that routes are like that, is because they are trying to serve as many areas as possible but sometimes that means expanding the route without adding buses. For example, the route 1 was extended from Markham-Stouffville hospital to Copper Creek Walmart, and they reduced the frequency instead of adding a bus. Ridership has suffered even before the pandemic because of these infrequent services. I am hoping in the next few years as there is more demand and more GO transit service running through the region that bus service to connect to the trains gets more frequent. I would love to see the implementation of the new VIVA service also as well as extending the Blue to East Gwillimbury. Once those changes happen then hopefully they can start improving the local bus routes. 

Once all that is done then we can talk about potentially buying more electric buses and adding more charging stations. No sense adding charging stations and new buses when they keep making cuts and alienating riders. 

 

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8 hours ago, brianc1981 said:

I think before they decide whether to buy more of those buses they need to work on improving service as it is in the northern part of York Region. Currently the infrequent bus frequencies are frustrating for trying to get to anywhere. To properly run a transit system schedules should be designed so that buses not necessarily connect but at least run on a regular frequency. So buses that run every 10 minutes or better, buses that run every 10 minutes, buses running every 15 minutes, buses every 20 minutes, buses every 30 minutes or hourly. Routes that run on headways of 18 or 34, or 42 makes it really hard to plan a trip. You have a bus running every 36 minutes and you need to connect to a bus that runs every 53 minutes, could mean really long waits between buses. I have long advocated and even talked with planners at YRT about changing schedules to run at better times. Currently there are certain routes that run on very odd frequencies. Part of that is they have tried to push the VIVA buses to run with the bulk of riders, but the problem is feeder buses have such poor frequency. One of the reasons I was told that routes are like that, is because they are trying to serve as many areas as possible but sometimes that means expanding the route without adding buses. For example, the route 1 was extended from Markham-Stouffville hospital to Copper Creek Walmart, and they reduced the frequency instead of adding a bus. Ridership has suffered even before the pandemic because of these infrequent services. I am hoping in the next few years as there is more demand and more GO transit service running through the region that bus service to connect to the trains gets more frequent. I would love to see the implementation of the new VIVA service also as well as extending the Blue to East Gwillimbury. Once those changes happen then hopefully they can start improving the local bus routes. 

Once all that is done then we can talk about potentially buying more electric buses and adding more charging stations. No sense adding charging stations and new buses when they keep making cuts and alienating riders. 

 

Part of the issue is the divisions don’t necessarily “speak with each other” as they’re all separate contractors. The region is so fixated on not running a deficit that the bottom line of meeting or excelling service expectations is missed. All they need to do is have it so passengers wait 10 minutes for a transfer to either route instead of the mentality of buses meeting at an intersection at that moment or not meeting at all with the frequencies you mentioned. 

for example routes 85 and 90 were designed to meet at 16th Ave, however because YRT headways are complete insanity you would have the 85 running extremely late towards 16th Ave ( yet too much time going opposite way) whereas the 90 would often run right on time SB causing a missed connection and a long wait, or no bus at all for the night 

Last 85EB is 11:44 

last 90SB is 11:37

until the planners make an effort to communicate the needs of riders and fix the schedule YRTs ridership will drop and headway issues won’t get fixed 

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10 hours ago, ZümmyZüm said:

Part of the issue is the divisions don’t necessarily “speak with each other” as they’re all separate contractors. The region is so fixated on not running a deficit that the bottom line of meeting or excelling service expectations is missed. All they need to do is have it so passengers wait 10 minutes for a transfer to either route instead of the mentality of buses meeting at an intersection at that moment or not meeting at all with the frequencies you mentioned. 

for example routes 85 and 90 were designed to meet at 16th Ave, however because YRT headways are complete insanity you would have the 85 running extremely late towards 16th Ave ( yet too much time going opposite way) whereas the 90 would often run right on time SB causing a missed connection and a long wait, or no bus at all for the night 

Last 85EB is 11:44 

last 90SB is 11:37

until the planners make an effort to communicate the needs of riders and fix the schedule YRTs ridership will drop and headway issues won’t get fixed 

It's not the fact that there are 4 different divisions operating the service in York Region. The Region is the one that dictates service levels throughout the system, the divisions simply allocate the staff and equipment to make it happen.

 

And it's not the planners, either. They are told to do something within a certain set of parameters - one of the largest being budget - and "make it fit."

 

The issue is the Region itself. They're the ones that need to open up the purse strings.

 

Dan

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12 hours ago, ZümmyZüm said:

Part of the issue is the divisions don’t necessarily “speak with each other” as they’re all separate contractors. The region is so fixated on not running a deficit that the bottom line of meeting or excelling service expectations is missed. All they need to do is have it so passengers wait 10 minutes for a transfer to either route instead of the mentality of buses meeting at an intersection at that moment or not meeting at all with the frequencies you mentioned. 

for example routes 85 and 90 were designed to meet at 16th Ave, however because YRT headways are complete insanity you would have the 85 running extremely late towards 16th Ave ( yet too much time going opposite way) whereas the 90 would often run right on time SB causing a missed connection and a long wait, or no bus at all for the night 

Last 85EB is 11:44 

last 90SB is 11:37

until the planners make an effort to communicate the needs of riders and fix the schedule YRTs ridership will drop and headway issues won’t get fixed 

Another example of YRT planning insanity, the N/B afternoon schedules on 91 and 91A. The trips are timed so loosely, that the bus has to depart Finch Terminal at least 4-5 minutes behind schedule, just to avoid running ahead. For example, the 5:09 pm N/B trip of 91A, gives 17 minutes from Finch to Steeles/Bayview (all that is really needed is 12 at most), and then 8 minutes from Steeles/Bayview to John/Bayview (when 4 is the maximum that is needed). Constantly having to hold at John Street for several minutes and the passengers getting angry because the bus is not moving.... Meanwhile, on 99, with the reopening of all the businesses, it has gotten so congested on Yonge Street around 16th, it is almost impossible to be on time. The traffic signal timing along the section of the VIVA rapidway just makes it worse. 

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To further prove my point about service with weird frequencies, here is a summary of service changes coming up. 

Route 57 - Mulock

Weekdays:

Schedules will be adjusted:

Morning rush hour frequency - approximately every 65 minutes

Midday frequency - approximately every 63 minutes

Afternoon rush hour frequency - approximately every 67 minutes

Evening frequency - approximately every 63 minutes

and then there is this one

Route 98 - Yonge

Weekdays:

Schedules will be adjusted:

Midday frequency - approximately every 53 minutes

Afternoon rush hour frequency - approximately every 53 minutes

Early evening frequency - approximately every 48 minutes

Things like this are why its so hard to plan a trip on buses especially in the north end. One route operates at a 63 minute frequency and another one operates every 53 minutes, that means if I am on the 57 and I need to transfer to the 98 I could potentially be waiting for up to 53 minutes. I get that sometimes buses cannot wait at every intersection to meet buses coming through, but if there were better frequencies than the connections would be better at major transfer points. 

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