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Part of me wonders if manufacturers would ever include adjustable regen modes for the driver to use. Like a Tesla in a sense. Or maybe even a smart/dynamic regen mode that gathers street elevation data and can adjust modes on the fly. 

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15 hours ago, Doppelkupplung said:

Part of me wonders if manufacturers would ever include adjustable regen modes for the driver to use. Like a Tesla in a sense. Or maybe even a smart/dynamic regen mode that gathers street elevation data and can adjust modes on the fly. 

The regen mode is already "smart". It only applies as much force as the operator presses down on the brake pedal, and so long as the internal systems are receptive to the electricity being generated.

 

As for different modes to handle different driving conditions, many companies - not just Tesla - offer this. While I see no reason why Allison nor BAE couldn't do the same with their respective hybrid systems (in fact, BAE's system allow for 4 different acceleration levels and 4 different braking levels, but these require access to the control system to change), I can also appreciate that the various systems who operate them may not want that level of control available to the drivers.

 

Dan

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On 9/26/2020 at 6:41 PM, Doppelkupplung said:

Part of me wonders if manufacturers would ever include adjustable regen modes for the driver to use. Like a Tesla in a sense. Or maybe even a smart/dynamic regen mode that gathers street elevation data and can adjust modes on the fly. 

We don't need more things to do while driving. It works fine the way its set up now. 

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2 hours ago, Doppelkupplung said:

Lol relax, you wouldn't be performing brain surgery. 

It would be an unnecessary distraction for no benefit, so why bother?

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57 minutes ago, Someguy3071 said:

It would be an unnecessary distraction for no benefit, so why bother?

...saving wear and tear on critical components seems like a benefit to me. Truck drivers have to shift manual boxes and operate retarders, and still have pay attention to the road just as much as you. And ya, I know you're not a truck driver.

 

Regardless, it was just an idea. 

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7 hours ago, Doppelkupplung said:

...saving wear and tear on critical components seems like a benefit to me. Truck drivers have to shift manual boxes and operate retarders, and still have pay attention to the road just as much as you. And ya, I know you're not a truck driver.

 

Regardless, it was just an idea. 

You're really not saving any critical components. You'll save a very small amount on brakes and that's it. Buses already have retarders or regen. They work when you take a foot of the throttle. Very easy and simple to use. 

What would really help with wear and tear is if all drivers used retarders/regen to help slow the bus down before stopping, instead of holding throttle til last second and then only using brakes to stop. If they let of the throttle a few seconds earlier, retarder/regen can slow that bus down significantly, and then use brakes to come to a full stop. 

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41 minutes ago, Someguy3071 said:

You're really not saving any critical components. You'll save a very small amount on brakes and that's it. Buses already have retarders or regen. They work when you take a foot of the throttle. Very easy and simple to use. 

What would really help with wear and tear is if all drivers used retarders/regen to help slow the bus down before stopping, instead of holding throttle til last second and then only using brakes to stop. If they let of the throttle a few seconds earlier, retarder/regen can slow that bus down significantly, and then use brakes to come to a full stop. 

It was something to build on what was already there tech-wise. I know the regen starts when you let off the accelerator; in my mind I had the adjustable modes being operated by a lever by the steering wheel. Something similar to say, a hydraulic retarder you'd find on European coaches and trucks, where you can adjust braking force.

Dan mentioned 4 levels of braking, and what I'm essentially saying is giving drivers access to that level of adjustability. Although I see his point on why TAs may not want to give drivers that level of control. 

As for your second point, that issue lies with the training department. The forbidden fruit that is adjustable regen might've helped with that. Each driver is different I guess. 

 

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Service brake application pressure is already monitored by a transducer plumbed in.

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On 10/9/2020 at 7:35 PM, Doppelkupplung said:

It was something to build on what was already there tech-wise. I know the regen starts when you let off the accelerator; in my mind I had the adjustable modes being operated by a lever by the steering wheel. Something similar to say, a hydraulic retarder you'd find on European coaches and trucks, where you can adjust braking force.

Dan mentioned 4 levels of braking, and what I'm essentially saying is giving drivers access to that level of adjustability. Although I see his point on why TAs may not want to give drivers that level of control. 

As for your second point, that issue lies with the training department. The forbidden fruit that is adjustable regen might've helped with that. Each driver is different I guess. 

 

Why would you use a leaver when you could just program the brake pedal? It's all software driven anyways.  

No need to create more work for the driver. They need to be able to use their attention for the road.

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On 10/9/2020 at 6:40 PM, Someguy3071 said:

What would really help with wear and tear is if all drivers used retarders/regen to help slow the bus down before stopping, instead of holding throttle til last second and then only using brakes to stop. If they let of the throttle a few seconds earlier, retarder/regen can slow that bus down significantly, and then use brakes to come to a full stop. 

Not sure how that's any different than gearing down as you approach a light ... which few seem to do now, given the huge time lapse between when I see the break lights in front of me go on, and I need to touch mine to completely stop.

Not sure the cost is that difference ... normally I trade a car in around the 7-8 year mark, before the first brake job.

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5 minutes ago, PCC Guy said:

Yeehaw!  Fire up the dwarven forges again!  Fire them up after the option pricing expired!  Fire them up at even greater cost than it would've been if the order was tacked on while the option pricing was still available or could be negotiated in when the production line was still going and before the production problems had been sorted out and the employees building the cars were still proficient before they got laid off!

In all seriousness, the last point I made there concerns me.  After the Toronto Rocket and the streetcar orders finished up, Bombardier started laying off a lot of employees in Thunder Bay since the only thing going through the plant became bilevel train cars.  This means that at least some, if not many ofthe employees who were proficient in building the streetcars got laid off and even if they're recalled, there's a healthy gap between when the last streetcar got built and the first of any of this order will be started which means the skills, institutional knowledge, etc. have all gotten rusty.

Additionally, rusty only applies if you can successfully recall the people who were laid off and bring the people who worked on the main order back which may not be entirely possible since some of them have inevitably moved on by now which means you're looking at a good chunk of new employees building these things for the first time.  And that is the basis for my concern:  there is a much greater risk of a round 2 of quality control issues than if production had been kept going after the original 204 cars since the quality problems had been sorted out by then rather than doing a restart with new people long after it finished up.  At $140 million for 13 cars, it works out to $10.8 million per car which is more expensive than they needed to be if the option had been exercised, probably even if belatedly and somewhat higher cost while the line was still going, so that's a more expensive, more risky, more delayed way to go about buying more streetcars that could've been totally avoided.

I will leave it to the politicians to spin the "penny wise, pound foolish" approach they've taken to ordering more streetcars at this late date as "good news" because heaven knows, they're good at doing that sort of thing and I'm not.

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While they are only down to one manufacturing line in Thunder Bay - the BiLevels - another line has been kept open by using it to equip the Crosstown LRVs with the ATC/ATO system that will be used on the Crosstown.

 

Dan

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11 hours ago, smallspy said:

While they are only down to one manufacturing line in Thunder Bay - the BiLevels - another line has been kept open by using it to equip the Crosstown LRVs with the ATC/ATO system that will be used on the Crosstown.

 

Dan

 

On 10/16/2020 at 12:34 PM, Wayside Observer said:

Yeehaw!  Fire up the dwarven forges again!  Fire them up after the option pricing expired!  Fire them up at even greater cost than it would've been if the order was tacked on while the option pricing was still available or could be negotiated in when the production line was still going and before the production problems had been sorted out and the employees building the cars were still proficient before they got laid off!

In all seriousness, the last point I made there concerns me.  After the Toronto Rocket and the streetcar orders finished up, Bombardier started laying off a lot of employees in Thunder Bay since the only thing going through the plant became bilevel train cars.  This means that at least some, if not many ofthe employees who were proficient in building the streetcars got laid off and even if they're recalled, there's a healthy gap between when the last streetcar got built and the first of any of this order will be started which means the skills, institutional knowledge, etc. have all gotten rusty.

Additionally, rusty only applies if you can successfully recall the people who were laid off and bring the people who worked on the main order back which may not be entirely possible since some of them have inevitably moved on by now which means you're looking at a good chunk of new employees building these things for the first time.  And that is the basis for my concern:  there is a much greater risk of a round 2 of quality control issues than if production had been kept going after the original 204 cars since the quality problems had been sorted out by then rather than doing a restart with new people long after it finished up.  At $140 million for 13 cars, it works out to $10.8 million per car which is more expensive than they needed to be if the option had been exercised, probably even if belatedly and somewhat higher cost while the line was still going, so that's a more expensive, more risky, more delayed way to go about buying more streetcars that could've been totally avoided.

I will leave it to the politicians to spin the "penny wise, pound foolish" approach they've taken to ordering more streetcars at this late date as "good news" because heaven knows, they're good at doing that sort of thing and I'm not.

I mean there are still Eglinton cars and Ontario line (don't know what type of equipment) to be built. And the cross town units are very similar.  I don't think workmanship is going to be such an issue. The biggest issue was the factory in Mexico making parts that don't fit, and as long as that's not an issue I'm sure that they are capable of building good quality streetcars. 

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14 hours ago, smallspy said:

While they are only down to one manufacturing line in Thunder Bay - the BiLevels - another line has been kept open by using it to equip the Crosstown LRVs with the ATC/ATO system that will be used on the Crosstown.

They were making venitilators as well - perhaps that ended. https://www.sudbury.com/local-news/bombardier-begins-ventilator-production-at-thunder-bay-2401641

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TTC Board endorses Fleet Procurement Strategy and Plan

Oct. 22, 2020

Today, the TTC Board approved a $550-million investment in new vehicles and transit system upgrades made possible by Toronto's City Building Fund.

"This is a great day," said TTC CEO Rick Leary. "This plan will see hundreds of new energy-efficient and zero-emission buses carrying TTC customers starting in two years to replace our aging fleet, advance the City's climate change goals and improve the customer experience while promoting economic prosperity and the social vibrancy of the city."

"This is a positive step forward for the future of Toronto transit. Investing in new vehicles and necessary upgrades will make sure our TTC is operating at its best and moving as many people as possible," said Mayor John Tory. "The plan approved by the Board today starts making those investments in key areas. Now it is also extremely important that Toronto's investments are in short order matched by the federal and provincial governments who both understand the importance of investing in transit, investing in Canadian-built vehicles, and investing in our post-COVID future."

As part of the Fleet Procurement Strategy and Plan the TTC Board gave the go-ahead to the purchase of:

- 600 new buses - 300 hybrids picking up passengers starting in 2022 and 300 new e-buses that - pending the results of the TTC's head-to-head study - would roll out starting in 2023.
- 70 new Wheel-Trans buses starting in 2022
- 13 more streetcars on our streets starting in 2023 with a commitment to buy 47 more if the other governments are willing to come to the table to support transit.

The plan also funds the start of work needed to purchase 80 new subway trains for Lines 1 and 2 to accommodate expansion and an upgraded signaling system on Line 2.

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