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29 minutes ago, PCC Guy said:

https://nowtoronto.com/news/maps-illustrate-24-bus-routes-that-risk-being-cancelled/

Does anyone know how factually accurate this article is? I was not aware that any potential candidates for cancellation had been listed yet.

Complete and utter BS. The criteria was saving money. None of those routes have low enough ridership to save money using microtransit. What would that have to be ... about 5 rides an hour? Those are all in the 15-20 range at a minimum, and some much higher.

TTCriders are far too political for their own good.

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7 minutes ago, nfitz said:

Complete and utter BS. The criteria was saving money. None of those routes have low enough ridership to save money using microtransit. What would that have to be ... about 5 rides an hour? Those are all in the 15-20 range at a minimum, and some much higher.

TTCriders are far too political for their own good.

Unfortunately "We're saving money and providing the services that taxpayers want and need" is a fine phrase even if the implementation is BS.

Politicians have assured us that contracting out City services is "efficient and cost effective", even when the inside view is that it's a mess with unaccountable contractors doing whatever they want (and residents then complain about "city workers").

This kind of nonsense can happen with the smaller bus routes. Calling out this possibility is not BS on the part of TTCriders.

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59 minutes ago, Ed T. said:

This kind of nonsense can happen with the smaller bus routes. Calling out this possibility is not BS on the part of TTCriders.

The only regular routes that comes close are the 99 Arrow and the Downsview Park. I honestly don't see the point for the latter, now they've built the subway station.

Besides, didn't TTC move from microtransit to scheduled vehicles on the 400-series routes to save money?

The government may be fools, but a simple cost-benefit comparison of any existing route, should end the discussion quickly.

TTCriders are vastly overly-political about this. They shows their NDP colours far too frequently (and don't get me wrong ... I've voted NDP more often than I've voted PC ... but I don't think they go about it the right way, potentially alienating natural supporters).

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5 minutes ago, nfitz said:

The only regular routes that comes close are the 99 Arrow and the Downsview Park. I honestly don't see the point for the latter, now they've built the subway station.

One possible response would be "oh well, two small routes, won't change anything, why bother?" Another possible response would be "well, we need to make the criteria wider, so we're sure to replace a bunch of routes. Otherwise we will have constituents phoning our offices saying 'Hey, I saw another empty bus passing by my house, I thought you were getting rid of this waste of money!'."

The government does not necessarily have to be fools to do this kind of thing. There can be other machinations involved that, from their point of view, are very much not foolish. Steve Munro also appears to be quite skeptical as to how this might go.

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40 minutes ago, nfitz said:

The only regular routes that comes close are the 99 Arrow and the Downsview Park. I honestly don't see the point for the latter, now they've built the subway station.

Besides, didn't TTC move from microtransit to scheduled vehicles on the 400-series routes to save money?

The government may be fools, but a simple cost-benefit comparison of any existing route, should end the discussion quickly.

TTCriders are vastly overly-political about this. They shows their NDP colours far too frequently (and don't get me wrong ... I've voted NDP more often than I've voted PC ... but I don't think they go about it the right way, potentially alienating natural supporters).

I totally agree that this is utterly stupid if the cut routes at all time period.

All I see this is PC telling TTC to conduct an analysis and maybe temporary replace a route during time periods where no one is riding during this covid-19 era cause that make no sense to be paying for a full bus for nobody. This would only apply while they receive subsidies from the PC and would discontinue once there is enough ridership again or subsidy stops. 

This all got twisted into short routes being chopped during rush hour when obviously it makes no sense to use microtransit for a bus beyond half filled.

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5 hours ago, PCC Guy said:

https://nowtoronto.com/news/maps-illustrate-24-bus-routes-that-risk-being-cancelled/

Does anyone know how factually accurate this article is? I was not aware that any potential candidates for cancellation had been listed yet.

 

It would be absolutely horrific if the TTC cancels all three east-west route (48 Rathburn, 49 Bloor West, and 50 Burnhamthorpe) 

I live in Markland Wood neighbourhood which is probably the western most part of the city and there are a lot of people here using the TTC here. 
 

It would be horrific to walk all the way to The West Mall if all three of them are discontinued.

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7 hours ago, Ed T. said:

One possible response would be "oh well, two small routes, won't change anything, why bother?" Another possible response would be "well, we need to make the criteria wider, so we're sure to replace a bunch of routes. Otherwise we will have constituents phoning our offices saying 'Hey, I saw another empty bus passing by my house, I thought you were getting rid of this waste of money!'."

The government does not necessarily have to be fools to do this kind of thing. There can be other machinations involved that, from their point of view, are very much not foolish. Steve Munro also appears to be quite skeptical as to how this might go.

They want to do this to save money. But TTC already cancels routes when they have so little ridership that this might save money. There's literally nothing to be saved, and implementing microtransit for any of these routes would cost money - not save it.

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15 hours ago, nfitz said:

They want to do this to save money. But TTC already cancels routes when they have so little ridership that this might save money. There's literally nothing to be saved, and implementing microtransit for any of these routes would cost money - not save it.

You are thinking like an intelligent, reasonable transit user. I'm not sure how many politicians, if any, think like that.

Once you convince the public, i.e. voters, that microtransit will save money and is a positive step, whether it actually saves money or not is irrelevant, certainly in the short term. You have "done something" about all those lazy overpaid unionized workers and the buses that are running around empty in city streets. And your voters will vote for you.

That's why TTCriders has to be political. These are all political decisions, not decisions made on rational transit planning grounds.

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49 minutes ago, Ed T. said:

You are thinking like an intelligent, reasonable transit user. I'm not sure how many politicians, if any, think like that.

Their thinking would be "How would that headline look in the Toronto Star". TTC can short-circuit that entire debate by stating how much extra it would cost to implement micro-transit on a handful of routes. 

That's how you do things politically.

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13 minutes ago, nfitz said:

Their thinking would be "How would that headline look in the Toronto Star". TTC can short-circuit that entire debate by stating how much extra it would cost to implement micro-transit on a handful of routes. 

That's how you do things politically.

Gary Webster tried that.

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19 hours ago, raptorjays said:

It would be absolutely horrific if the TTC cancels all three east-west route (48 Rathburn, 49 Bloor West, and 50 Burnhamthorpe) 

I live in Markland Wood neighbourhood which is probably the western most part of the city and there are a lot of people here using the TTC here. 
 

It would be horrific to walk all the way to The West Mall if all three of them are discontinued.

As mentioned earlier, one of the other "efficiencies" the Province is looking at is having MiWay take over operations along the Bloor and Burnhamthorpe corridor from the TTC.  Metrolinx will have to sort out how to allocate fares, but the shift from Islington to Kipling may leave a portion of Burnhamthorpe unserved.  MiWay intends on having their Burnhamthorpe route serve both Islington and Kipling, but the routing will likely leave the westbound segment between Islington and Kipling with no service.

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There is a 2004 and 2007 business case that calls for Mississauga to take over TTC 49 & 50. Both cases were presented to TTC commission and staff was to respond to the 2007. Never has along with several reports related to TTC requested by the Chair of TTC and the Commission at the time. It was also presented to Mississauga Council.

Mississauga would break even on Route 26 at that time providing service in Toronto using TTC fares. Route 3 would be a blood bath for it and would require funding from TTC.

48 was never look at as far as I know since the bridge connecting the 2 cities has never been built. I am sure the riders of route 20 would oppose doing TTC 48 as it would not benefit them at all.

TTC would walk away with about million dollars saving plus the buses as well that could be put to better use elsewhere in the system.

Both 26 and 3 would require service to be beef up to handle the extra TTC riders on those routes.

Metrolinx has used the 2007 business case not done by them or an outside firm as a model how service could be interlined with other systems. It has been presented to other system during public meetings.

Route 26 would follow TTC route 50 while 3 would end at Kipling like the 49 but would not service the loop 49 does today.

In fact, I have recommended that 26 stay on Burnhamthorpe 100% to South Common Mall and Oakville would take over the west end of route 26.

There are several routes in the GTA that should be taken over by other systems that will benefit everyone. May not happen soon, but the writing been on the wall since 2007 using the UK model.

A lot has happened since 2007 business case and needs updating.

When one looks at the various TTC route rating for over 10 years, 48, 49 and 50 were among the various route to be cut first if TTC became tight for money. 

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On 9/2/2020 at 1:13 AM, drum118 said:

There is a 2004 and 2007 business case that calls for Mississauga to take over TTC 49 & 50. Both cases were presented to TTC commission and staff was to respond to the 2007. Never has along with several reports related to TTC requested by the Chair of TTC and the Commission at the time. It was also presented to Mississauga Council.

Mississauga would break even on Route 26 at that time providing service in Toronto using TTC fares. Route 3 would be a blood bath for it and would require funding from TTC.

48 was never look at as far as I know since the bridge connecting the 2 cities has never been built. I am sure the riders of route 20 would oppose doing TTC 48 as it would not benefit them at all.

TTC would walk away with about million dollars saving plus the buses as well that could be put to better use elsewhere in the system.

Both 26 and 3 would require service to be beef up to handle the extra TTC riders on those routes.

Metrolinx has used the 2007 business case not done by them or an outside firm as a model how service could be interlined with other systems. It has been presented to other system during public meetings.

Route 26 would follow TTC route 50 while 3 would end at Kipling like the 49 but would not service the loop 49 does today.

In fact, I have recommended that 26 stay on Burnhamthorpe 100% to South Common Mall and Oakville would take over the west end of route 26.

There are several routes in the GTA that should be taken over by other systems that will benefit everyone. May not happen soon, but the writing been on the wall since 2007 using the UK model.

A lot has happened since 2007 business case and needs updating.

When one looks at the various TTC route rating for over 10 years, 48, 49 and 50 were among the various route to be cut first if TTC became tight for money. 

So does it mean people living along Burnhamthorpe or Bloor will have to pay their fare twice? 

I think fare integration is necessary in order to make that move because there are a lot of people (than the TTC is thinking) are taking transit in Central West part of Etobicoke, and they are not willing to pay their fare twice. 
 

As one of people living along that corridor, that’s going to be a big blow if I indeed have to pay one fare for the bus and the other for the subway. How can it be possible within the same city?

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2 hours ago, raptorjays said:

So does it mean people living along Burnhamthorpe or Bloor will have to pay their fare twice? 

I think fare integration is necessary in order to make that move because there are a lot of people (than the TTC is thinking) are taking transit in Central West part of Etobicoke, and they are not willing to pay their fare twice. 
 

As one of people living along that corridor, that’s going to be a big blow if I indeed have to pay one fare for the bus and the other for the subway. How can it be possible within the same city?

I don't know how you got that idea. The idea is to be more efficient and provide better service not screw riders.

Those who paid TTC fare in TTC zone to the Miway bus would be eligible to transfer the subway while those who paid to Miway would have pay twice. The transfer would indicate that (now it would be presto). TTC would save money from not running those buses while Miway gets to keep the fare. If they need subsidies, TTC would pay Miway to provide the service. The riders themselves would see more frequent service. Of course the TTC union wouldn't be too happy that their jobs is being handed to someone else.

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TTC now has the largest fleet of electric buses in North America on the road with arrival of third new electric bus model

Sept. 8, 2020

Today, the TTC is pleased to announce that it is operating the largest fleet of electric buses in North America. The milestone comes as the TTC's third new electric bus model is now road ready and starting to go into service.

"Public transit allows Canadians to get around in cheaper, cleaner and faster ways," said The Honourable Catherine McKenna, Minister of Infrastructure and Communities. "Our government's investment in the TTC's electric bus pilot program is a sign of our commitment to made-in-Canada clean technology and an important step toward our target of 5,000 electric buses in Canada's fleets over the next five years. Canada's Infrastructure plan invests in thousands of projects, creates jobs across the country and builds stronger communities."

"I'm proud to help launch these new electric buses and to celebrate the fact that Toronto is now officially operating the largest fleet of electric buses in North America. This fleet of 60 all-electric buses was only made possible thanks to an investment by the City of Toronto and the Government of Canada of $140 million," said Toronto Mayor John Tory. "Our eBus fleet is one of the many projects that our City government has jointly funded with the federal government through the federal Public Transit Infrastructure Fund. I want to thank the Government of Canada for providing this funding that helps keep Toronto residents moving by investing in modernizing, expanding and upgrading our transit and transportation infrastructure. This is the right and responsible thing to do for our transit system, our city, and our environment."

In November 2017, the TTC Board approved procurement of 30 all-electric vehicles. In June 2018, the Board approved the purchase of 30 more. The TTC acquired the 60 all-electric buses from three manufacturers: BYD Canada Co. Ltd., New Flyer Industries Inc. and Proterra Inc.

The TTC's Arrow Road Garage was the first location to be outfitted with leading-edge charging infrastructure for its New Flyer Industries vehicles. Mount Dennis Garage followed with vehicles made by Proterra that use the same charging technology. BYD vehicles, which have now all arrived on property and are based out of the TTC's Eglinton Bus Division, require a different type of charging infrastructure. While the other eBuses use DC or Direct Current electricity to charge, BYD vehicles use AC or Alternating Current.

The differences between all three eBus models, including the effect of how they charge on overall performance, will be put to the test as the TTC progresses with its head-to-head comparison to inform future procurements of battery-electric buses.

Approximately 35 eBuses are already in service across the city. The first BYD-manufactured eBus is being put into service on the 116 Morningside route today. The remaining 25 eBuses, currently undergoing final testing and commissioning activities, are expected to be in service by the end of September.

"Electrification is the future of public transit and I'm proud that the TTC has been established as an industry leader in this regard, as the owner of North America's largest fleet of eBuses," said TTC Chair Jaye Robinson. "The TTC Board wholeheartedly supports the TTC's forward-thinking plan to achieve a zero-emissions fleet by 2040."

"The TTC is pleased to be leading the charge on such an important project and transition for the transit industry and the city," said TTC CEO Rick Leary. "We're grateful for the ongoing support from our partners at the City and at Infrastructure Canada to sustain our pledge to prioritize network-wide service improvements and ensure the TTC provides the reliable service that our customers deserve."

The electrification of vehicles is a key component of the City's TransformTO climate action strategy, which targets an 80-per-cent reduction in local greenhouse gas emissions by 2050. To meet that target, 100 per cent of vehicles in Toronto must transition to low-carbon energy by 2050. The electrification of buses, which is targeted for 2040, demonstrates the City's commitment to lead by example. Vehicles generate about one-third of the emissions in Toronto today. The TTC's new eBuses operate on truly green propulsion technology with zero tailpipe emissions.

The Government of Canada and the City of Toronto have invested $140 million in this project under federal Public Transit Infrastructure Fund (PTIF). The money is being used for these electric buses and to begin laying the infrastructure for future expansion of the TTC's zero-emissions fleet. This fund is helping keep Torontonians moving through investments in the repair, modernization and expansion of the city's transit and active transportation networks. In total, up to $1.8 billion is being invested in Toronto through PTIF, which was launched on Aug. 23, 2016.

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7 hours ago, drum118 said:

TTC now has the largest fleet of electric buses in North America on the road with arrival of third new electric bus model

Offhand, both Seattle and Vancouver have way more.

The poorly-written article means battery-powered buses. Though is it the largest? I thought Gray Line in BC ordered 80, before TTC did. Perhaps not all delivered yet? And I thought STM were ordering something similar to test ... I think they've got more New Flyers than TTC ... did they get any other types? And that's just Canada. I thought tests in Mexico had been going on longer than Canada ... and then there's the USA.

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3 hours ago, nfitz said:

Offhand, both Seattle and Vancouver have way more.

The poorly-written article means battery-powered buses. Though is it the largest? I thought Gray Line in BC ordered 80, before TTC did. Perhaps not all delivered yet? And I thought STM were ordering something similar to test ... I think they've got more New Flyers than TTC ... did they get any other types? And that's just Canada. I thought tests in Mexico had been going on longer than Canada ... and then there's the USA.

In terms of BEBs being operated in service, probably true. TTC is likely one of the first that I'm aware to jump the gun and commit to a big order. Subsequently big orders were made

STM/STL did order a 30/10 split of flyers but that's under a trial. STM still have those 3 Nova fast charges too.

ETS ordered 40 proterras.

King County Transit in Seattle ordered 40 Flyers for 2021 with an option of 80 more in 2022. The already have some BEBs from small orders and tons of trolley buses.

DASH in LA ordered 130 BYDs and 25 proterras.

If TTC wants to keep the crown, they'll have to commit to a huge batch soon which I don't see them doing nor is that a good idea.

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1 hour ago, Xtrazsteve said:

If TTC wants to keep the crowd, they'll have to commit to a huge batch soon which I don't see them doing nor is that a good idea.

I'd think they'd want to run these for 4-5 years, before committing to anything large-scale. Get a better idea about the lifespan costs.

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10 hours ago, nfitz said:

Offhand, both Seattle and Vancouver have way more.

That was my first thought when I read that eyeroller too.  I think San Francisco and Boston have more than 30 or 40 each as well.

7 hours ago, nfitz said:

I'd think they'd want to run these for 4-5 years, before committing to anything large-scale. Get a better idea about the lifespan costs.

Any normal large operation like the TTC would be reasonable and prudent, yes.  However, not the TTC, not with the political environment they find themselves in.  Can you say ICTS?  Can you say CNG buses?  Can you say hybrid buses?  Can you say Presto?  When there's a politically motivated bandwagon to jump on, especially one where there's an economic inducement gun held to the TTC's head like there were with several of those, prudence sometimes gets thrown out the window incredibly fast.

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If the province of Ontario wants to back up a truck (train?) with 500 free battery-powered buses, then I guess it's all-in. But I see your point!

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28 minutes ago, nfitz said:

If the province of Ontario wants to back up a truck (train?) with 500 free battery-powered buses, then I guess it's all-in. But I see your point!

Like it or not but by the year 2040, more than 50% of all vehicles will be battery electric.  Look at where hybrid buses have come? In the beginning they had issues, but you see those first gen hybrids with over 1 million Km's and still running.  Think of the amount of greenhouse gasses that where reduced in it's lifetime? 

This is how things work, the more agencies that buy Electric buses, and the more Km's they rack up the better and cheaper they become. It might hurt today but it's an investment for the future. 

They may only have a 400Km range today, but within 10 years they may have over 1000km's range which is about the same as a diesel bus today. Dont forget that as diesel buses become "cleaner" they use more fuel, and have become extremely complicated. Dont forget the cost of DEF fluid, which is not cheap.  

If you compare it to your car at home, the cost to charge a tesla to get you 500km's is less than half the cost of your gas vehicle of the same size, no oil changes, no maintenance, no engine rebuilds, and only 26 moving parts. 

Like it or not Battery powered vehicles are the future, get use to it. 

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37 minutes ago, Shaun said:

Like it or not but by the year 2040, more than 50% of all vehicles will be battery electric.  Look at where hybrid buses have come? In the beginning they had issues, but you see those first gen hybrids with over 1 million Km's and still running.  Think of the amount of greenhouse gasses that where reduced in it's lifetime? 

This is how things work, the more agencies that buy Electric buses, and the more Km's they rack up the better and cheaper they become. It might hurt today but it's an investment for the future. 

They may only have a 400Km range today, but within 10 years they may have over 1000km's range which is about the same as a diesel bus today. Dont forget that as diesel buses become "cleaner" they use more fuel, and have become extremely complicated. Dont forget the cost of DEF fluid, which is not cheap.  

If you compare it to your car at home, the cost to charge a tesla to get you 500km's is less than half the cost of your gas vehicle of the same size, no oil changes, no maintenance, no engine rebuilds, and only 26 moving parts. 

Like it or not Battery powered vehicles are the future, get use to it. 

Let's remember that the gasoline engine is still based on a century old design. Computers have aid fuel efficiency but the fundamentals haven't changed.

How do we know that we can greatly improve the battery in 20 years? Possible but I'm not better big money on it.

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1 hour ago, Shaun said:

Like it or not but by the year 2040, more than 50% of all vehicles will be battery electric.  Look at where hybrid buses have come? In the beginning they had issues, but you see those first gen hybrids with over 1 million Km's and still running.  Think of the amount of greenhouse gasses that where reduced in it's lifetime? 

This is how things work, the more agencies that buy Electric buses, and the more Km's they rack up the better and cheaper they become. It might hurt today but it's an investment for the future. 

They may only have a 400Km range today, but within 10 years they may have over 1000km's range which is about the same as a diesel bus today. Dont forget that as diesel buses become "cleaner" they use more fuel, and have become extremely complicated. Dont forget the cost of DEF fluid, which is not cheap.  

If you compare it to your car at home, the cost to charge a tesla to get you 500km's is less than half the cost of your gas vehicle of the same size, no oil changes, no maintenance, no engine rebuilds, and only 26 moving parts. 

Like it or not Battery powered vehicles are the future, get use to it. 

Not sure what "like it or not" and "get use to it" are written above. I'd be quite happy to see gasoline and diesel engines banned in urban areas. Not because of climate change - just for health and fresh air issues.

But that doesn't mean that TTC is going to suddenly stop ordering diesel buses - that only last 12 years, in 2021. The best way to successfully end diesel buses, is to make sure that the transition goes smoothly, with all the kinks worn out. For TTC to be 50% electric by 2040 (I hope it's higher), they need to start taking deliveries in 2033 or 2034.

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46 minutes ago, Shaun said:

Like it or not but by the year 2040, more than 50% of all vehicles will be battery electric.  Look at where hybrid buses have come? In the beginning they had issues, but you see those first gen hybrids with over 1 million Km's and still running.  Think of the amount of greenhouse gasses that where reduced in it's lifetime? 

This is how things work, the more agencies that buy Electric buses, and the more Km's they rack up the better and cheaper they become. It might hurt today but it's an investment for the future. 

They may only have a 400Km range today, but within 10 years they may have over 1000km's range which is about the same as a diesel bus today. Dont forget that as diesel buses become "cleaner" they use more fuel, and have become extremely complicated. Dont forget the cost of DEF fluid, which is not cheap.  

If you compare it to your car at home, the cost to charge a tesla to get you 500km's is less than half the cost of your gas vehicle of the same size, no oil changes, no maintenance, no engine rebuilds, and only 26 moving parts. 

Like it or not Battery powered vehicles are the future, get use to it. 

Get used to it?  I was used to it!  I used to ride TTC electric buses minimum five days a week!  They had this great overhead charging system that provided unlimited KMs!

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