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What does 4178 look like from the rear? I assume they left it red, for safety reasons, so cars know they are approaching a streetcar.

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29 minutes ago, nfitz said:

What does 4178 look like from the rear? I assume they left it red, for safety reasons, so cars know they are approaching a streetcar.

It’s different dark shades

https://transit.toronto.on.ca/photos/streetcar-models/clrv/a-streetcar-named-toronto/clrv-4178-20190928-18.html

 

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19 hours ago, MK78 said:

Either way, Toronto's poor implementation of street cars where passengers exit on live lines will always cause issues. It's too bad they didn't think of separated sections for the entire network, like on Spadina, etc.

Cars barely existed 100 years ago. You expect them to be able to see into the future?

 

As well, having the system entirely on ROWs would require street widths far greater than what we have now. They are capable on St. Clair and Spadina because those streets were built wider than the norm.

 

Dan

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15 hours ago, TTC Guy said:

Funnily enough, I ended up on 506 last night in the dark. And it jumped out at me that the white stripe is gone. Though the yellow "do not pass" signage has been changed from what is shown here. This has yellow on dark - but they seem to have added a large yellow rectangle around it. I've got some lousy photos ...

Normally when they wrap a car, they leave the back intact. I'd fear that painting the back dark colours, would risk some drivers not realizing they are passing a streetcar, and increase the chance of accidents.

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7 minutes ago, nfitz said:

Though the yellow "do not pass" signage has been changed from what is shown here. This has yellow on dark - but they seem to have added a large yellow rectangle around it. I've got some lousy photos ...

I would look at the Transit Toronto photo again. The large yellow rectangle is present there, too.

For reference here is a photo of 4178 I snapped on the same day of the accident. The signage is the same.

 

4178.png

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42 minutes ago, PCC Guy said:

I would look at the Transit Toronto photo again. The large yellow rectangle is present there, too.

I don't see the large yellow rectangle that was on the streetcar yesterday. I only see the yellow rectangle below the yellow circle. The larger rectangle now has circle inside it.

See these (lousy) photographs (sorry for the quality, I thought I'd have more time after I got off to get the camera settings better, but it zoomed away too quickly!)

See the second photograph in particular ... hmm, now I wonder if there's some reflective paint thing going on, as the first picture (a second later) seems a bit different.

 

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10 minutes ago, nfitz said:

See the second photograph in particular ... hmm, now I wonder if there's some reflective paint thing going on, as the first picture (a second later) seems a bit different.

It looks to me like a reflection off an external light source, like car headlights or something.

Which white stripe are you referring to? Comparing the rear photos of 4178 with any other CLRV, I only see that they dropped the actual paint that makes the livery. The reflective strip still seems to be there.

33809670178_5225e8cd88_z.jpgToronto Transit Commission 4011 - 09 by Andrew P., on Flickr

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41 minutes ago, nfitz said:

I don't see the large yellow rectangle that was on the streetcar yesterday. I only see the yellow rectangle below the yellow circle. The larger rectangle now has circle inside it.

See these (lousy) photographs (sorry for the quality, I thought I'd have more time after I got off to get the camera settings better, but it zoomed away too quickly!)

See the second photograph in particular ... hmm, now I wonder if there's some reflective paint thing going on, as the first picture (a second later) seems a bit different.

I’m sorry, if you can’t recognize that you’re passing a streetcar downtown, then we have bigger problems to address.

Its a vehicle unlike anything else on the streets. And I’m not speaking from the perspective of a transit enthusiast. 

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2 hours ago, PCC Guy said:

It looks to me like a reflection off an external light source, like car headlights or something.

Which white stripe are you referring to? Comparing the rear photos of 4178 with any other CLRV, I only see that they dropped the actual paint that makes the livery. The reflective strip still seems to be there.

33809670178_5225e8cd88_z.jpgToronto Transit Commission 4011 - 09 by Andrew P., on Flickr

Indeed, it doesn't look like there is additional reflective material there, at least in those two photos. What it looks to be is the reflection of lights off of a glossy square surface - which is where those two stickers are located.

 

As for the white stripe, there is a reflective stripe that goes around the whole of the car right above the anticlimber. In the photo above, it appears silvery-grey. Under direct light, it reflects white.

 

Dan

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3 hours ago, PCC Guy said:

It looks to me like a reflection off an external light source, like car headlights or something.

Which white stripe are you referring to?

Yes, I think you are right about the reflection!

The big white stripe, that the number is written on. Drivers are used to seeing the back of a streetcar. But it's much darker now. I'm afraid, that in a split second or so of decision making, that it isn't as apparent as it was.

 

2 hours ago, Doppelkupplung said:

I’m sorry, if you can’t recognize that you’re passing a streetcar downtown, then we have bigger problems to address.

How isn't someone being seriously injured boarding a streetcar getting hit by a car not important?

Sure, 99.9% of drivers will  know it's a streetcar. But if even 0.1% suddenly don't notice it is, when it was before, and there is an increase in risk, there is a problem. And that can be quickly addressed with some red and white paint, before someone else is seriously injjured

 

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17 minutes ago, nfitz said:

The big white stripe, that the number is written on. Drivers are used to seeing the back of a streetcar. But it's much darker now. I'm afraid, that in a split second or so of decision making, that it isn't as apparent as it was.

Is that stripe that significant of a feature that a driver will just lose their head and mow down a pedestrian if it's not there? I think there's a larger issue at play here.

It's been said before on this forum, but if a driver is not able to make out that giant lumbering hulk of metal in front of them that has interior lighting, brake lights, and indicators can't identify that it's a streetcar, they have no business driving. The average black car or truck is much less lit up than a streetcar is, so according to the parameters of your argument wouldn't there also be the danger of them hitting such a car?

The accident with 4178 in particular happened prior to sun down, what's the driver's excuse there? (According to a poster on Reddit whose partner witnessed the accident, the driver gunned it, presumably to avoid getting stuck behind the streetcar. https://old.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/df70gk/pedestrian_struck_at_bay_and_college/f31xvue/ ) I myself described earlier in the thread how that same day, a driver blew past 4178 in broad daylight.

17 minutes ago, nfitz said:

And that can be quickly addressed with some red and white paint, before someone else is seriously injjured

What makes you so confident that adding paint to the back of 4178 will make it any safer for passengers? It's not like drivers blowing past open streetcar doors is a phenomenon unique to this car, and every other streetcar in the fleet has exactly that high visibility red and white paint. It also happens during the day time, too, when visibility should be at its prime.

Sure, part of the issue is that occasionally you'll run into a driver from deep hicksville who has never seen a bus, let alone a streetcar, before in their life (to that end, I would propose painting the roads around streetcar stops a deep red with signage warning of an approaching car stop, like they do in many places in Europe where trams run in mixed traffic), but part of the issue is also that Toronto drivers can be extremely selfish and callous. No amount of flashy paint is going to change anything about that.

 

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3 hours ago, nfitz said:

How isn't someone being seriously injured boarding a streetcar getting hit by a car not important?

Sure, 99.9% of drivers will  know it's a streetcar. But if even 0.1% suddenly don't notice it is, when it was before, and there is an increase in risk, there is a problem. And that can be quickly addressed with some red and white paint, before someone else is seriously injjured

 

Obviously I wasn't implying that. What I was implying was whether or not a driver should be on the road if they can't recognize what a streetcar is and the way it operates and interacts with people. 

But at the end of the day, PCC sums it up perfectly. It could be acid green or Vantablack, you still should not be able to miss a streetcar on a downtown street, regardless if you're from Hicksville, Ontario or you live off King St. This is just a case of your average driver trying to beat the streetcar in effort to save a minute or so. 

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On October 10, 2019 at 3:11 PM, PCC Guy said:

Sure, part of the issue is that occasionally you'll run into a driver from deep hicksville who has never seen a bus, let alone a streetcar, before in their life (to that end, I would propose painting the roads around streetcar stops a deep red with signage warning of an approaching car stop, like they do in many places in Europe where trams run in mixed traffic), but part of the issue is also that Toronto drivers can be extremely selfish and callous. No amount of flashy paint is going to change anything about that.

 

Toronto gets a lot of visitors not only from parts of Ontario that don't have streetcars and so using that one part of the Driver's Handbook pertaining to them is a definite possibility. There are also those from out-of-province who have never been taught how to interact with streetcars. There should be signage at least along the highways entering Toronto explaining to keep back 2m/6ft from a stopped (with doors open) streetcar. It'd probably also serve as a reminder for suburbanites travelling through downtown!

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On 10/10/2019 at 2:56 PM, nfitz said:

Sure, 99.9% of drivers will  know it's a streetcar. But if even 0.1% suddenly don't notice it is, when it was before, and there is an increase in risk, there is a problem. And that can be quickly addressed with some red and white paint, before someone else is seriously injjured

  1. If they would recognize 4178 as a streetcar if it was painted in the normal colours (which aren't that visible at night anyway), what will they think this is? Garden shed? Panda bear?
  2. Whatever the proportion of drivers who suddenly won't recognize 4178 as a streetcar, I expect that it's much outweighted by the proportion of drivers who don't know, or care, to stop for a streetcar with open doors.
  3. I rode 4178 from High Park loop to Queen's Park on Thursday evening, with no untoward events. (I wasn't planning on that particular car, it's just what showed up.)
  4. You want to see cars zipping by streetcar doors, come out to Lake Shore where there is an open lane to the right of all the unprotected stops, unlike downtown routes where the lane to the right will typically have parked cars.

Oh yes, and 4178 has upholstered seats. Boy, back when the CLRVs and H6 cars were first introduced, the padding seemed awfully thin compared to that in even the H1-H4 cars and GM buses, never mind Gloucester cars and PCCs. Now, even a smidgen of foam is luxury compared to sitting on a nubby piece of carpet that's the norm. I expect that at some point they'll bring back the slatted wood seats of 1880s cars.

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10 hours ago, Ed T. said:
Oh yes, and 4178 has upholstered seats. Boy, back when the CLRVs and H6 cars were first introduced, the padding seemed awfully thin compared to that in even the H1-H4 cars and GM buses, never mind Gloucester cars and PCCs. Now, even a smidgen of foam is luxury compared to sitting on a nubby piece of carpet that's the norm. I expect that at some point they'll bring back the slatted wood seats of 1880s cars.

Or maybe they’ll go for the full frenchist and break out the plastic backed seats like STM...or RATP...or any major French agency.

god those plastic seats suck, it’s the pinnacle of cruelty in transit.

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17 hours ago, Doppelkupplung said:

Or maybe they’ll go for the full frenchist and break out the plastic backed seats like STM...or RATP...or any major French agency.

god those plastic seats suck, it’s the pinnacle of cruelty in transit.

I disagree, considering the various unhygienic situations one might run into on transit having plastic seats that you can easily wash seems preferable to having fabric seats.

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6 minutes ago, PCC Guy said:

I disagree, considering the various unhygienic situations one might run into on transit having plastic seats that you can easily wash seems preferable to having fabric seats.

Very fair point.

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I thought the move towards hard fabric covered seats lately was because that was the easiest way to meet fire ratings?

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23 hours ago, dowlingm said:

I thought the move towards hard fabric covered seats lately was because that was the easiest way to meet fire ratings?

There's a whole lot of different reasons why they've gone to the kevlar fabric seat coverings. Fire load is one, and ease of maintenance is another.

 

Dan

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Maybe this was enough to scare the city to finally get its head out of its you know what, and be more mindful of the entire city, not just the downtowners when it comes to transit planning.

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2 hours ago, MK78 said:

Maybe this was enough to scare the city to finally get its head out of its you know what, and be more mindful of the entire city, not just the downtowners when it comes to transit planning.

 

Can we give that bullshit trope of "downtowners versus suburbanites" a rest already?

 

Transit is needed everywhere in this city. Dollars to pay for it, however, are scarce. The fact of the matter is that not everywhere in the City can justify the costs - both of construction, and ongoing maintenance and operation - of a subway to every little corner. That means right-sizing transit where it is best suited and needed.

 

Dan

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11 minutes ago, smallspy said:

 

Can we give that bullshit trope of "downtowners versus suburbanites" a rest already?

 

Transit is needed everywhere in this city. Dollars to pay for it, however, are scarce. The fact of the matter is that not everywhere in the City can justify the costs - both of construction, and ongoing maintenance and operation - of a subway to every little corner. That means right-sizing transit where it is best suited and needed.

 

Dan

I would very much like for it to give it a rest, but the fact is that in the past 10+ years due to various feuds among city councillors & mayors, the transit planning has suffered big time. It was very much to do about downtown vs the former regions of Etobicoke, North York & Scarborough.

Lots of money went to other BS pet projects, and not transit.

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