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2 hours ago, nfitz said:

Why would there be more fare evasion then. By then there's even more fare inspectors, and less streetcars to inspect.

 

I'm not sure I see more than 2% being caught when they do a surprise streetcar inspection. Most of the time they don't catch anyone. The worst I saw, they caught two ... and hauled them off. But as one of them was me, and I finally found my pass as they were starting to write the ticket (I'd given up after the first search of my wallet, and assumed I forgot to get it back off my wife), even that might be misleading.

 

They were all very nice about it. But so was I; but clearly didn't believe I thought I'd had a pass with me ... his jaw kind of dropped when I finally produced it. :)

With regard to mass inspections at stations though, there are some unfavourable locations ie) St. Clair West. With two wide open platforms and 4 doors per car, it takes a lot of manpower. For the first time since Flexities started operating on St. Clair (that I've seen myself), there were inspections at St Clair West on Tuesday morning's rush, with 4 fare inspectors at the EB platform. my car was jam packed and there were a handful who balked at getting off upon seeing them there. And 3 of the 4 were writing tickets with the 4th kind of scrambling to cover the sea of people flooding out of the car. Some people take advantage of this, running through the crowd past the inspectors who can't do anything about it.

This is in contrast to Spadina or Union where everyone is filtered through one exit point (though I have also seen people escape through the loading platform enough times). Even still, both inspectors have occasionally been occupied with writing tickets leaving subsequent cars unchecked until they finish up.

Especially with the increased volume of people carried per car, they will need at least one per door, and maybe a special constable backing them up to take care of runners, uncooperative people or inspecting when an inspector is writing a ticket.

Additionally with Presto cards, the handheld units take about two seconds to pull up the data for each card which is reaaaaaaaaly slow when 200 people are getting off a car, soon to all be using Presto (if they paid...). 

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2 hours ago, nfitz said:

Why would there be more fare evasion then. By then there's even more fare inspectors, and less streetcars to inspect.

For streetcar routes that have more of a local demand (ie: certain portions of the 501, and 506) and are currently being served by A/CLRVs, there's no doubt in my mind people would avoid paying. If they are only travelling a couple of stops, they wont see the need to pay especially if they barely see fare inspectors around.

The 501 and 506 rarely use all door boarding outside of peak hour, so most passengers today are paying outside of peak hours. As soon as the switch is made to the Flexities they wont be forced to pay for those short trips, and as a result more of them will take their chances and fare evasion would increase.

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What I always wondered, if someone gets on, and there are no fare inspectors onboard (they are kinda easy to spot), and if one pays attention, if they get on, just stand by a presto reader and just tap then, lol.

I'm not a frequent street car rider, and have used metropasses for 15+ years so it never applied to me. But I am trying presto out this month, so far its been a positive experience, especially with the transfers, and I have tried some weird transfer points and directions, and haven't gotten dinged for extra fare yet. On buses though, not streetcars since there are none in scarborough where I primarily travel.

 

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2 hours ago, 63 Ossington said:

Especially with the increased volume of people carried per car, they will need at least one per door, and maybe a special constable backing them up to take care of runners, uncooperative people or inspecting when an inspector is writing a ticket.

Don't other transit properties use larger teams? The pairs on the TTC always seemed inadequate to me.

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On 12/16/2017 at 4:44 AM, MiWay0310 said:

The author of the article is clueless.  He forgot his metropass at work and now thinks he should not face the penalty.  Well go out in your car without your license and get pulled over and see what kind of a fine you get.  Get stopped by Conservation Officer and tell him you left your fishing license back at the cottage and see how far that gets you.   The whole point of Proof of Payment is to have the proof on you otherwise every scammer would just say i left it at home.

Fare Evasion is much higher than 4% i think.  You see it with all the 14-15 year olds pretending to be 12.  The Drivers have given up as there is nothing they can do.  I think TTC wants the vehicles moving and not delaying everyone for a fare evader.  Funniest one i saw was a guy ask the driver for a ride to the station because he spent his change on a coffee which he was holding !!!   Driver called it in and i guess they told him to continue , he said something about putting in a report.

I cant imagine what even happens on the Streetcars.   I heard if the Officers stop you, just run away there is nothing they can do they wont chase you lol

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4 hours ago, 0=0 said:

 

Fare Evasion is much higher than 4% i think.  You see it with all the 14-15 year olds pretending to be 12.  The Drivers have given up as there is nothing they can do.  I think TTC wants the vehicles moving and not delaying everyone for a fare evader.  

This is why children should be on the Presto system NOW. Parents bring their child's birth certificate or other acceptable ID to an agent, pay a nominal fee, let's say $5-10. And they keep tapping for free (but must tap to use the system) until the last day they are 12. Thereafter, fill your Presto, or pay cash for a student rate. (Hopefully) It'll instill positive habits early.

And if they lose their card (because it happens), they just cancel the other card and buy a new one. Sucks to pay again, but these days they walk with cellphones, so...

 

As for the single mothers who claim their three year old is twelve.... That's another post for another time. 

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6 hours ago, TDE said:

 

This is why children should be on the Presto system NOW. Parents bring their child's birth certificate or other acceptable ID to an agent, pay a nominal fee, let's say $5-10. And they keep tapping for free (but must tap to use the system) until the last day they are 12. Thereafter, fill your Presto, or pay cash for a student rate. (Hopefully) It'll instill positive habits early.

And if they lose their card (because it happens), they just cancel the other card and buy a new one. Sucks to pay again, but these days they walk with cellphones, so...

 

As for the single mothers who claim their three year old is twelve.... That's another post for another time. 

I really think this "free" fare should only be offered to residences of the GTA. The presto card should be distributed though schools in Toronto. For those in the 905, they'll have to go to Sherborune and get it done. Heck that students were all suppose to get an ID card for like $5-7 dollars to use student fare but they relaxed that to 16+. 

Yes, they should totally require a presto card to tap against the machine while paying their "free" fare. It will help TTC track how many kids are actually riding the system at what time.

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21 minutes ago, Xtrazsteve said:

I really think this "free" fare should only be offered to residences of the GTA. The presto card should be distributed though schools in Toronto. For those in the 905, they'll have to go to Sherborune and get it done. Heck that students were all suppose to get an ID card for like $5-7 dollars to use student fare but they relaxed that to 16+. 

Yes, they should totally require a presto card to tap against the machine while paying their "free" fare. It will help TTC track how many kids are actually riding the system at what time.

In the Estonian capital of Tallinn, residents have been allowed to use inner-city public transport services for free since 2013. The catch is that they must use their "Ühiskaart" as valid fare media, to separate them from non-residents who continue to pay fares. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_transport_in_Tallinn#Tickets

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On 15/12/2017 at 6:22 PM, lip said:

The 501 and 506 rarely use all door boarding outside of peak hour, so most passengers today are paying outside of peak hours.

This isn't true. I take 506 every day, often outside of peak. I haven't seen them not to all-door loading for a long time.

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Now I know he's not overly popular...BUT...what are your thoughts on what he says?

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2017/12/18/ten-km-of-subway-extension-only-took-30-years-whoopee.html

Now obviously, we don't want to go around bulldozing YTZ, but I agree with him on some points. However, the blame falls on many people/things. 

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26 minutes ago, MiWay0310 said:

Now I know he's not overly popular...BUT...what are your thoughts on what he says?

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2017/12/18/ten-km-of-subway-extension-only-took-30-years-whoopee.html

Now obviously, we don't want to go around bulldozing YTZ, but I agree with him on some points. However, the blame falls on many people/things. 

Planning things the right way should be considered...You don't just go bulldozing people's homes for public utilities without proper planning. Can they speed up the process? Absolutely, but he implies that dictator like practices should be utilized, which is wrong in a democratic society. I'd rather wait 30 years for a DRL on Carlaw that is built with 6-8 car trains and has an adequate number of stops (5-6 in between Queen and Pape, with a connection at Osgoode) over building an underground LRT with platforms that can only accommodate 3 cars and can't be expanded. Cities should have time to plan things right, and not just for when things open, but for generations to come. 

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3 hours ago, Streety McCarface said:

Planning things the right way should be considered...You don't just go bulldozing people's homes for public utilities without proper planning. Can they speed up the process? Absolutely, but he implies that dictator like practices should be utilized, which is wrong in a democratic society. I'd rather wait 30 years for a DRL on Carlaw that is built with 6-8 car trains and has an adequate number of stops (5-6 in between Queen and Pape, with a connection at Osgoode) over building an underground LRT with platforms that can only accommodate 3 cars and can't be expanded. Cities should have time to plan things right, and not just for when things open, but for generations to come. 

Not everyone can wait 30 years. Many won't be around to see it or have moved to another city. The economy definitely can't wait 30 years. 

As with the LRT, they can always build another line. There is no need to stuff everyone on one line (e.g. Yonge Line) and when things goes wrong, half the city can't move by transit. It might be cheaper but there are many drawbacks as TTC avoided the Relief Line for decades has backfired. 

Toronto was small when Lines 1 and 2 were planned. The GTA has grown so much, it makes no sense to run the system with two or three trunk lines. Many world class cities don't and they keep expanding. For Toronto, it make make more sense to build smaller stations like Eglinton but build more lines in the future. More people will have faster access to transit that way than to build a full subway on Eglinton and none around it.

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16 hours ago, MiWay0310 said:

Now I know he's not overly popular...BUT...what are your thoughts on what he says?

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2017/12/18/ten-km-of-subway-extension-only-took-30-years-whoopee.html

Now obviously, we don't want to go around bulldozing YTZ, but I agree with him on some points. However, the blame falls on many people/things. 

The idea for a subway to York University has been around quite a bit longer than 30 years.

 

Hell, it took the City over 80 years to fix the jog at Dufferin and Queen. Sometimes other things come up that are a higher priority.

 

Frankly, it reads like a lot of gnashing of teeth for nothing, really. I guess he needed to write a column and didn't have anything important to say.

 

Dan

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6 minutes ago, MiWay0310 said:

Genius thought he'd try head butting a TR yesterday. Not my favorite source, but here it is:

http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/man-struck-in-head-by-ttc-train

If you choose to watch the video, here's a warning for slightly graphic content. 

He’s sick, not stupid. So drop the sarcasm.

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2 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

He’s sick, not stupid. So drop the sarcasm.

While incidents people falling or being pushed onto tracks can be prevented by the type of "half-height" suicide barriers that are permeating Japanese train stations everywhere (for details I'd suggest reading this Japan Times article), I find this particular case so lunatically ridiculous that, combined with the unprecedented degrees of unpredictability that exists here compared to other places in North America, should lead to the TTC to, as soon as it becomes economically feasible, follow the lead of MTRC in Hong Kong and start considering retrofitting full-height barriers into stations. When I first rode the MTR network, not all the stations had screen doors so I didn't even bother peering over the tracks. But since the doors were installed, it has become habitual for me to lean on the glass, especially at the extreme ends of the platforms, to get a decent but safe view of the tracks and other infrastructure.

P. S. it should be worth bringing up this post from a few years back:

 

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I’ll defer to the experts, but full height doors may be a non starter due to fire ventilation concerns.

1 hour ago, lip said:

^It depends how you describe sick to be honest. He openly admitted to drug use which is what was causing his behavior; normally i'd hold sympathy for cases where a mental illness was at play but this has nothing to do with that.

Addiction is a disability under the law, yes?

actually you know what? never mind. Expecting empathy from transit enthusiasts is like herding cats. I’ve had vast experience on the subject.

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21 minutes ago, Bus_Medic said:

Addiction is a disability under the law, yes?

actually you know what? never mind. Expecting empathy from transit enthusiasts is like herding cats. I’ve had vast experience on the subject.

Yes, correct it is, but I'll never give someone the benefit of the doubt for repeatedly causing dangerous situations to occur. Much in the same way I wouldnt give an impaired driver the benefit of the doubt in a collision.

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2 hours ago, lip said:

Yes, correct it is, but I'll never give someone the benefit of the doubt for repeatedly causing dangerous situations to occur. Much in the same way I wouldnt give an impaired driver the benefit of the doubt in a collision.

Slight bit of difference there. If you're drunk, you still have to make the choice to get behind the wheel.

 

If you are addicted, however, there becomes a physical and physiological need to get back to that state. And there are many recorded situations of people blacking out or loosing control while in that state.

 

Dan

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14 minutes ago, smallspy said:

Slight bit of difference there. If you're drunk, you still have to make the choice to get behind the wheel.

 

If you are addicted, however, there becomes a physical and physiological need to get back to that state. And there are many recorded situations of people blacking out or loosing control while in that state.

 

Dan

Oh there's no doubt about the physical and physiological needs that come with addiction and there comes a point in time where one needs to seek help for their condition. I'm empathetic to addictions, but not in cases where an individual just brags about their condition and is in control enough to post it numerous times on social media which is why in this specific case I have no sympathy towards the man's actions.

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18 hours ago, smallspy said:

Slight bit of difference there. If you're drunk, you still have to make the choice to get behind the wheel.

 

If you are addicted, however, there becomes a physical and physiological need to get back to that state. And there are many recorded situations of people blacking out or loosing control while in that state.

 

Dan

It almost sounds like you are suggesting that drunk driving is worse than drugged driving. Impaired is impaired.

18 hours ago, lip said:

Oh there's no doubt about the physical and physiological needs that come with addiction and there comes a point in time where one needs to seek help for their condition. I'm empathetic to addictions, but not in cases where an individual just brags about their condition and is in control enough to post it numerous times on social media which is why in this specific case I have no sympathy towards the man's actions.

Yes, can't agree more.

 

How many people were inconvenienced by his poor choices? How much money have people lost as a consequence of his actions? Late for work? Late for picking up the kids from daycare and getting charged extra money? Late for a job interview and not getting that job because of it? How much has he cost our health care system because of his actions?

 

What about all those poor people who had to witness that in person. What about that operator? I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy, it's brutal.

 

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