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buschic
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I don't know what's wrong with Ontarians, we have no pride in our province or country. We are so happy to scrap every bit of our history because it may cost some money to keep it around.

This is like city council under Mayor Ford, considering wether or not to pay $50,000 a year to keep the clock and bells at Old City Hall working. $50,000 isn't nothing but if you compare that to the City's overall budget it's like an average person buying a Coffee.

In a First World nation it's worth it to be world class, Toronto is biggest city in this country and its where the world comes to see Canada.

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I don't know what's wrong with Ontarians, we have no pride in our province or country. We are so happy to scrap every bit of our history because it may cost some money to keep it around.

This is like city council under Mayor Ford, considering wether or not to pay $50,000 a year to keep the clock and bells at Old City Hall working. $50,000 isn't nothing but if you compare that to the City's overall budget it's like an average person buying a Coffee.

In a First World nation it's worth it to be world class, Toronto is biggest city in this country and its where the world comes to see Canada.

Welcome to the world of penny wise and pound foolish.

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I don't know what's wrong with Ontarians, we have no pride in our province or country. We are so happy to scrap every bit of our history because it may cost some money to keep it around.

This is like city council under Mayor Ford, considering wether or not to pay $50,000 a year to keep the clock and bells at Old City Hall working. $50,000 isn't nothing but if you compare that to the City's overall budget it's like an average person buying a Coffee.

In a First World nation it's worth it to be world class, Toronto is biggest city in this country and its where the world comes to see Canada.

Rob Ford is an idiot. He claims he save taxpayer's money by doing stupid little things like this and then building a subway. He likes to trim every budget by forcing them to cut 5 or 10%. The cops go like "we'll just not hire more officers this year". Instead they should have ran an audit and find efficiency or actually change how they perform their daily tasks as many cops just chill for half the time. For the TTC it could restructuring management instead of cutting service. No one focuses on the real stuff, they go after the minor carp and give themselves a pat on the back.

Why people don't come to TO? Cause their is nothing to see.

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Rob Ford is an idiot. He claims he save taxpayer's money by doing stupid little things like this and then building a subway. He likes to trim every budget by forcing them to cut 5 or 10%. The cops go like "we'll just not hire more officers this year". Instead they should have ran an audit and find efficiency or actually change how they perform their daily tasks as many cops just chill for half the time. For the TTC it could restructuring management instead of cutting service. No one focuses on the real stuff, they go after the minor carp and give themselves a pat on the back.

Why people don't come to TO? Cause their is nothing to see.

why do you & BBC 9197 bring Ford into this? He is old news and he and his 'gravy' and City Council etc have nothing to do with trashing the old cars. The 'trashing' mentality started decades ago (long before Ford) and does not really involve money or space. HCRY is a big part, maybe the main part of the problem. They so beautifully restore / operate and showcase these old vehicles, why should the TTC try and duplicate this? TTC brass do have a point. In their mind what's the difference between here or and hour away. If you want to see these things, go to Rockwood. From what I heard it's not an ongoing concern and they don't really think about it. Just plant the seed as I said, tripling the charter rates is the first step so down the road you can show less charters which of course means if no one is chartering, why do we need them kind of mentailtiy. Certainly nothing to do with has-been Ford!

"...cause there is nothing to see"? really? more people would come here if there was more to see? Come on, silly thing to say. What is your source on that?

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HCRY is a big part, maybe the main part of the problem. They so beautifully restore / operate and showcase these old vehicles, why should the TTC try and duplicate this? TTC brass do have a point. In their mind what's the difference between here or and hour away. If you want to see these things, go to Rockwood.

I'm not sure if you are just telling us what those TTC higher-ups think.

Anyway, the "go to Rockwood" argument is specious on a few grounds:

  1. A lot more of the public will see historical streetcars when they're out on the city streets rather than at Rockwood. Rockwood is a destination for fans. A lot of people who love to see the old streetcars out would never take the time and money to go to Rockwood.
  2. Rockwood doesn't have the facilities to keep a large flee t going. I wonder what will happen when the older members no longer can go out there and tinker and operate the cars.
  3. Personally, I find riding a vehicle that's in service more interesting than riding on a charter, and a charger to be more interesting than riding through the (scenic) woods. Those are Toronto streetcars, and they belong on the streets of Toronto, not rolling through the trees on an old right-of-way.
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Yes, you're right that 4402 is a test car but I argue that 4402 was done it's reliability testing and were used to train operators by that time. Also the TTC wanted to publicize the new streetcars at that time and there is no production streetcars at that time. 4400 and 4403 didn't arrive yet.

4402 has done nothing - it's not owned by the TTC. After it gets retrofitted to be a "production" car, it will then have to go through the same acceptance process as every other car.

Dan

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I don't know what's wrong with Ontarians, we have no pride in our province or country. We are so happy to scrap every bit of our history because it may cost some money to keep it around.

This is like city council under Mayor Ford, considering wether or not to pay $50,000 a year to keep the clock and bells at Old City Hall working. $50,000 isn't nothing but if you compare that to the City's overall budget it's like an average person buying a Coffee.

In a First World nation it's worth it to be world class, Toronto is biggest city in this country and its where the world comes to see Canada.

NYC has a nice vintage transit collection and actually runs it for the month of December. I was there last year and saw it. They drew quite a crowd. The Christmas train that ran on Sunday was packed! So why exactly can they do it and TTC can't? For all you die hard it's not in the budget fans on here, what's wrong with having pride in showing off our history? We should restore the GMs and put them in service on 6 Bay during the summer and put the PCCs out on the 509. It will draw some positive attention towards the TTC. People would be interested in seeing this but many come to Toronto to see Toronto. No one's going to drive to the middle of bumfuck nowhere to visit HCRY. I wouldn't and I'm a busfan.

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I'm not sure if you are just telling us what those TTC higher-ups think.

Anyway, the "go to Rockwood" argument is specious on a few grounds:

  1. A lot more of the public will see historical streetcars when they're out on the city streets rather than at Rockwood. Rockwood is a destination for fans. A lot of people who love to see the old streetcars out would never take the time and money to go to Rockwood.
  2. Rockwood doesn't have the facilities to keep a large flee t going. I wonder what will happen when the older members no longer can go out there and tinker and operate the cars.
  3. Personally, I find riding a vehicle that's in service more interesting than riding on a charter, and a charger to be more interesting than riding through the (scenic) woods. Those are Toronto streetcars, and they belong on the streets of Toronto, not rolling through the trees on an old right-of-way.

god you guys go on and on...I'm just saying what was told to me third-party AND from 2 of the actual guys at a party some time ago. It's hardly news. Nobody at the TTC cared when the Trolley Buses were sent packing. Nobody at the TTC kept any Trolley memorabilia. Everything was trashed and this was 1993 or so. Once Ted Wickson and Geo Kratz retired most all of the old ride guides, other maps, TT's etc went in the trash. Back in the early 90's Ted was the archivist for the TTC, they then all of the sudden had no room for him, so they moved him down to the main Archives on Spadina. He catalogued, blah blah blah, made really interesting bristol board displays of important dates and TTC service changes and so on. That wasn't enought for the TTC so they made him multi-task and do a whole lot of other non-related stuff so he simply retired. NO ONE at the Archives has taken over from him (TTC has no historian/archivist) and there are no plans to do so. All Ted's work just stopped the moment he retired. John at the Archives says they have piles of boxes the TTC actually sent over during the last 20 years BUT they do not have manpower to open them and sort/catalogue/display SO......all of this stuff is packed away in storage. Who knows if we will ever see it? The elder vehicles come out once or twice a year, for the Beaches Parade, it's the organizers, The Beaches Lions Club requests the cars, the TTC doesnt just send them out of the goodness of their heart you know. The somewhat ridiculous order on the Witt, because of hand brakes means 3 cars have to go out etc etc. Of course it would be great to see these cars out but it won't happen. I heard the main mechanic at Russell that knew everything about PCC/Witt's has retired to be replaced by nobody in particular and quite a lot of the drivers who were trained on these have also retired. I could be wrong but I don't think the operating knowledge/training is officially being passed down to younger ops?

now having said, you have to take everything here with a grain of salt, could be all or part bullshit. Like everything else here, there is rarely a definitive answer that is set in stone and never changes...all info is pretty fluid....

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Worked for San Fracisco.

Does it?

What's the percentage of visitors at San Fran there specifically for the transit history versus those who happen to take it in as a part of their visit? I suspect that the answer is an extremely small fraction of a percentage.

Dan

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The person above asked if people would come see antique vehicles. Point I was making is they can become a tourist attraction. Not that they would be the sole reason for a person to visit.

The implication in your original answer was that the historical transit vehicles alone account for some percentage of the tourism to the City. And in an absolutely strict sense, sure, you're right. But the reality is that it's not going to cause any significant proportion of additional tourism to any given city.

It would be very interesting to find out exactly what is the amount of additional ridership generated by the special equipment used on the San Fransisco historical trolley lines, and whether the additional ridership is able to cover the additional costs of running that special equipment.

Dan

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also a lot of you here are too young , but in the 70's a Witt ran a tour tram service downtown for couple of years but NOBODY took it and it was discontinued for really low ridership. Well publicized, notices up..still, it didn't work here

For the record, that image appears to have been taken off one of Glenn Courtney's eBay account postings...

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For the record, that image appears to have been taken off one of Glenn Courtney's eBay account postings...

yes, eBay BUT the point is, using historic vehicles, in regular service for the tourists and locals has ALREADY been done by the TTC and no one rode the damn things! So you can hardly blame them for not trying it again. Here's sheet 1 of scheduled service..............

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/03/31/video-surfaces-of-ttc-officers-apparently-punching-men.html

Special constables at Union, there's a longer version of the video floating around that shows some of the preceding minutes.

This is just another example of a) why they had their 'powers' taken away before by the cops and B) why policing should be left to 'trained' cops, not rent-a-cops with NO oversight. As was pointed out, cops have chains of command, right up to the chief to complain etc plus civilian oversight board while these TTC cowboys are the wild west, no chain of command and no oversight at all, yeah, Mr Byford, sitting way off in his tower, that's it. Can you imagine if these clowns were armed? They'd be shooting people for chewing gum. Shameful. I don't care if these punks in the video spit on them, ya don't wail away in public like you are in the schoolyard. Council should immediately do something here. Fire them, actually train them, OR leave the policing to real police and let these clowns check transfers..............funny you never hear of GO police/inspoectors wailing away on people

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For the record, that image appears to have been taken off one of Glenn Courtney's eBay account postings...

And it's most likely a Ted Wickson photo.

yes, eBay BUT the point is, using historic vehicles, in regular service for the tourists and locals has ALREADY been done by the TTC and no one rode the damn things! So you can hardly blame them for not trying it again. Here's sheet 1 of scheduled service..............

That was the 1970s, do you think it would it still apply today? Are the tourism numbers comparable? City Sightseeing and Hop On-Hop Off seem to be able to make a go of sightseeing service these days.

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And it's most likely a Ted Wickson photo.

That was the 1970s, do you think it would it still apply today? Are the tourism numbers comparable? City Sightseeing and Hop On-Hop Off seem to be able to make a go of sightseeing service these days.

for sure a "Ted" photo I think and no Robert, I don't think it would fly today either. The sightseeing buses can go so many places a streetcar cannot. With traffic, lack of Bloor/ Church looping I don't think it would work today

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UPDATE: 501 Queen turning back eastbound at Queen and Roncesvalles due to a streetcar derailment. Replacement shuttles operating.


Last updated 3:03 PM.


I was going to post yesterday that....i wonder if or when the TTC was going to get around fixing the track in that area.


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UPDATE: 501 Queen turning back eastbound at Queen and Roncesvalles due to a streetcar derailment. Replacement shuttles operating.

Last updated 3:03 PM.

I was going to post yesterday that....i wonder if or when the TTC was going to get around fixing the track in that area.

All the track on The Queensway from Humber Loop through to Roncesvalles, including special trackwork at the yard and intersection is listed for replacement in 2016. Does anyone know exactly where the derailment happend?

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http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/03/31/video-surfaces-of-ttc-officers-apparently-punching-men.html

Special constables at Union, there's a longer version of the video floating around that shows some of the preceding minutes.

I was so disgusted when the officer punched the guy while he couldn't defend himself. does that station or that area in general get a lot of these incidents?

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I was so disgusted when the officer punched the guy while he couldn't defend himself. does that station or that area in general get a lot of these incidents?

You weren't there so you can't really what happen before the officer punch the guy. I am not saying the officer was right until we get the whole picture, we have to assume the defendant is innocent until proven guilty. Each station has a lot of incidents trust me. When you see a crown victoria at a Station, you know something had occurred. However it is not as dangerous as people think. When I drive, I don't put up a shield except when the weather is extremly cold to keep the heat within the driver area.

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You weren't there so you can't really what happen before the officer punch the guy. I am not saying the officer was right until we get the whole picture, we have to assume the defendant is innocent until proven guilty. Each station has a lot of incidents trust me. When you see a crown victoria at a Station, you know something had occurred. However it is not as dangerous as people think. When I drive, I don't put up a shield except when the weather is extremly cold to keep the heat within the driver area.

I totally agree that we don't know what happened before, but under no circumstances should a police officer punch any defendant, the TTC should review how it trains it officers to handle these kind of incidents, and make a example of him by punishing him

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