TTC in the news

[Orion VI]

13 hours ago, T3G said:

The yuppies of our fine city continue to be 100% in touch with the real issues plaguing the TTC: their logo.

https://www.blogto.com/city/2022/10/someone-redesigned-ttc-logo-people-have-thoughts/

The obsession with branding in this modern era is a real stain on our civilization. Like putting lipstick on a pig. All the issues the TTC has and this is what they choose to go after? Who cares about brand? Just make the service good and then who cares if the buses are painted in 1940s era blood and custard!

Don't want to veer off-topic here, but it must be said that the branding of public services like this does matter. You would be surprised at how many more people would complain if the TTC painted their fleet hot pink with racing stripes. Especially if you consider the fact that whether you like it or not, it represents the city and us as a population both to the rest of the world, but also people here. 

Society in the 21st century is very visual-based, and branding is marketing. To an organization that survives mostly off of fare money, that does matter somewhat. Especially for a company that the public pays for. For example, you don't really hear people complaining about the Pacific Western paint scheme, because marketing is what puts food on their plate. If they recognize that as a problem, they change it. Unless people don't have a choice, companies care what you think of them.

If the TTC had a visual reputation a la 1980s NYC subways, would people actively want to use the system?

[T3G]

1 hour ago, smallspy said:

What part of "...third party, unsolicited...." do you not understand here?

 

Yes, the TTC has problems. But ascribing this to them is pretty foolish.

 

Dan

I thought by my use of pronouns it was clear I was targeting the company who put forward the proposal to rebrand. I am crystal clear about the fact that this was not the TTC's brainchild.

[Kelvin3157]

https://www.cp24.com/news/woman-dead-another-seriously-injured-in-stabbing-at-high-park-station-man-in-custody-1.6186651

[MK78]

The woman killed on the TTC yesterday has been identified as Vanessa Kurpiewska, 31. The murderer has been identified as Neng Jia Jin, 52. The article says the two women stabbed were not known to the assailant.

 

https://www.cp24.com/news/victim-of-fatal-stabbing-on-toronto-subway-did-not-know-her-alleged-attacker-police-say-1.6187837

[raptorjays]

https://www.cp24.com/mobile/news/toronto-to-spend-53m-more-on-transit-will-increase-ttc-fares-by-10-cents-1.6217203
 

I understand about fare increase..

but I don’t see why they are keeping a fare free for kids 12 and under.

A lot of little high school students are a big part of a fare evasion since a lot of them are pretending they are 12 and under..

Moreover, I don’t see any jurisdictions which is letting those kids ride for free. A lot of cities charge fare as soon as they go in to the junior school or when they turn 5z 

[nfitz]

4 hours ago, raptorjays said:

A lot of little high school students are a big part of a fare evasion since a lot of them are pretending they are 12 and under..

A big part? If you go back to the old model, where 13+ were about $2 and 6-12 were 50¢, you don't think that the same kids wouldn't be evading fares?

As child fares moved more to tickets, and away from cash, it barely covered the ticket distribution and collection costs.

A better move would be to eliminate children's Presto cards completely, rather than having a card that charges you $0. Though a bit inconvenient for a child who is 12 and trying to get into a subway station.

[raptorjays]

49 minutes ago, nfitz said:

A big part? If you go back to the old model, where 13+ were about $2 and 6-12 were 50¢, you don't think that the same kids wouldn't be evading fares?

As child fares moved more to tickets, and away from cash, it barely covered the ticket distribution and collection costs.

A better move would be to eliminate children's Presto cards completely, rather than having a card that charges you $0. Though a bit inconvenient for a child who is 12 and trying to get into a subway station.

To be exact..

Those who are actually high schooler pretending to be 12 and under and just hop on the bus without paying fare. I do see a lot of them do that during my morning commute. 
It is unfortunate that the operator’s hands are tied on this.. they should have a right to kick them out of the bus

[Xtrazsteve]

1 hour ago, raptorjays said:

To be exact..

Those who are actually high schooler pretending to be 12 and under and just hop on the bus without paying fare. I do see a lot of them do that during my morning commute. 
It is unfortunate that the operator’s hands are tied on this.. they should have a right to kick them out of the bus

Once they are in the bus and refuses to get off. It’s easier to just take them along than to get law enforcement to land them a ticket before they escape. Forcible confinement and assault are things the operator need to be careful about. The operator just can’t run away from these kind of trouble.

[nfitz]

2 hours ago, raptorjays said:

To be exact..

Those who are actually high schooler pretending to be 12 and under and just hop on the bus without paying fare. I do see a lot of them do that during my morning commute. 
It is unfortunate that the operator’s hands are tied on this.. they should have a right to kick them out of the bus

So frigging what?

With the operator's hands tied, they could restore the child's fare, and it would still happen.

I don't know why this is an issue for anyone - it's not like they are travelling on 2 buses and a subway train, taking up huge capacity. Normally they go a handful of stops, seldom restricting anyone else from boarding.

There's little extra revenue to be gained. I'm not sure why some are stuck on this issue. If one wanted to tackle issues, then one could charge those with massive strollers or wheelchairs extra fare for using up more space. Or charge by distance. Or weigh people entering. But these too would be bad ideas. I'm not sure why bad ideas need to keep being raised again and again.

[lip]

3 hours ago, nfitz said:

There's little extra revenue to be gained. I'm not sure why some are stuck on this issue.

To be honest, the TTC could use that extra money at this point. I'd rather them scrap the cute kids free ride program and use that money towards wither upping safety on the system, or you know getting some more fare inspectors which are virtually non existent these days.

I'm curious to see some recent numbers from the TTC as to what the fare evasion rate these days is, i'm sure it's spiked up.

[nfitz]

3 hours ago, lip said:

To be honest, the TTC could use that extra money at this point. I'd rather them scrap the cute kids free ride program and use that money towards wither upping safety on the system, or you know getting some more fare inspectors which are virtually non existent these days.

It's a rounding error. It only collected about $6 million back in the day. But it cost a huge amount to print, distribute, and recollect the tickets. They'd get more revenue by raising adult fares by 1¢.

Even recently, I've seen a lot more fare inspectors than I ever did when they had the kids fares.

[MK78]

On 1/5/2023 at 2:56 AM, nfitz said:

It's a rounding error. It only collected about $6 million back in the day. But it cost a huge amount to print, distribute, and recollect the tickets. They'd get more revenue by raising adult fares by 1¢.

Even recently, I've seen a lot more fare inspectors than I ever did when they had the kids fares.

What tickets? Just implement a presto rate for kids under 12. And some kind of ID verification when signing up, so when they do get older, to automatically switch to the student fare.

The free rides for the grade schoolers are a massive nuisance for regular passengers, not to mention crowd the vehicles big time.

[nfitz]

3 hours ago, MK78 said:

What tickets? Just implement a presto rate for kids under 12. And some kind of ID verification when signing up, so when they do get older, to automatically switch to the student fare.

The TTC is already estimated last year that the Presto cards for kids that are currently around (when few kids actually need them), are costing $23 million in lost revenue. That will only get bigger while they try and get $6 million for children riding TTC! That's Ford-level cost savings!

And hardly convenient, given the requirement to go get a Presto Card.

 

3 hours ago, MK78 said:

The free rides for the grade schoolers are a massive nuisance for regular passengers, not to mention crowd the vehicles big time.

Massive inconvenience?!? I've heard literally no one say this in the real world. And I ride regularly, and don't observe it. Good grief, when they did have to pay, it was annoying when they a class of 25 boarded, and had to co-ordinate getting 25 fares from all the kids, handing over 25 fares or tickets, Trying to make sure they all have a Presto Card? And who is going to leave their 6-year old with a Presto Card when they go to school?

I don't think eliminating the 50¢ fare is causing any inconvenience for regular passengers. Nor do I think it's causing crowding problems.

From what you've said previously, it sounds like high school students are using children's cards occasionally. I don't see how changing it so they use youth cards will change the ridership much.

Many are very convenienced by the elimination of children's fares, and would be inconvenienced by restoring them. I think you are choosing to feel inconvenienced, when all the information shows that little would change by restoring children's fares - and if it's done in your manner, it would reduce TTC revenues.

[MK78]

21 hours ago, nfitz said:

Massive inconvenience?!? I've heard literally no one say this in the real world. And I ride regularly, and don't observe it. Good grief, when they did have to pay, it was annoying when they a class of 25 boarded, and had to co-ordinate getting 25 fares from all the kids, handing over 25 fares or tickets, Trying to make sure they all have a Presto Card? And who is going to leave their 6-year old with a Presto Card when they go to school?

I don't think eliminating the 50¢ fare is causing any inconvenience for regular passengers. Nor do I think it's causing crowding problems.

From what you've said previously, it sounds like high school students are using children's cards occasionally. I don't see how changing it so they use youth cards will change the ridership much.

Many are very convenienced by the elimination of children's fares, and would be inconvenienced by restoring them. I think you are choosing to feel inconvenienced, when all the information shows that little would change by restoring children's fares - and if it's done in your manner, it would reduce TTC revenues.

The elementary kids that rode the system before and paid the child ticket was way less than since they gave them free rides.

Because an entire school will pile on to ride 1-3 stops, at least on the route i take. Before they would simply walk, because nobody would give them tickets when they lived that close.

And what i said before about the free free rides under 12, is that the kids in high school would abuse the system and not pay at all, because the operators arent enforcing any fares, and its just a free for all on streetcars.

[smallspy]

17 hours ago, MK78 said:

And what i said before about the free free rides under 12, is that the kids in high school would abuse the system and not pay at all, because the operators arent enforcing any fares, and its just a free for all on streetcars.

As opposed to before, when high school kids would play other tricks to abuse the system?

 

Because it's not like that never happened.

 

Dan

[nfitz]

4 hours ago, smallspy said:

As opposed to before, when high school kids would play other tricks to abuse the system?

Indeed!

Trying to do change the current system all smells of what the Ministry of Health did, when they spent a lot more money to go to a photo health card system where cards expire, than they were getting in dollars of abuse of the medical system.

[raptorjays]

23 hours ago, nfitz said:

Indeed!

Trying to do change the current system all smells of what the Ministry of Health did, when they spent a lot more money to go to a photo health card system where cards expire, than they were getting in dollars of abuse of the medical system.

So you think there shouldn’t be any enforcement, right?

Btw, I am wondering if you work for John Tory because I often see you vigorously defend policies made by him including free fare for 12 and under, and you’ve been claiming the increase in property tax is fair and below inflation although it isn’t when including the other housing related tax.

You must be sucking his dick a lot

[T3G]

55 minutes ago, raptorjays said:

So you think there shouldn’t be any enforcement, right?

Btw, I am wondering if you work for John Tory because I often see you vigorously defend policies made by him including free fare for 12 and under, and you’ve been claiming the increase in property tax is fair and below inflation although it isn’t when including the other housing related tax.

You must be sucking his dick a lot

Maybe leave the cutting edge jokes to the comedians. It doesn't suit you.

[nfitz]

1 hour ago, raptorjays said:

So you think there shouldn’t be any enforcement, right?

I'm not sure where you get that impression. I'm all in favour of enforcement. Which is why I suggest they don't expand the circulation of children's passes.

I'm not sure why a couple here are pushing a policy change that the TTC clearly can't afford. And to what end - so a couple of riders on a bus don't shout at the clouds for a couple of minutes, when some children jump on.

That doesn't mean I don't support fare inspectors checking high school students!

 

1 hour ago, raptorjays said:

Btw, I am wondering if you work for John Tory because I often see you vigorously defend policies made by him  ...

??? I don't know where you are getting that impression - especially given the negative comments I've made about Tory (and Fords) over the years. It's not partisan. If a politician does something smart - I'll defend it from those that will sooner attack a good policy because it was made by the wrong person. 

But have you seen me supporting Tory's dumber-than-Ford service cuts for most periods of the day, that will take effect this spring?

Your filthy insult is beyond unacceptable. I await your apology.

[MK78]

In the days before Presto, not sure how long, at least the students needed a "student card". and most of the operators checked, told them to put in antoher ticket or the difference in coins, or kick them out.

 

[Ed T.]

14 minutes ago, MK78 said:

In the days before Presto, not sure how long, at least the students needed a "student card". and most of the operators checked, told them to put in antoher ticket or the difference in coins, or kick them out.

 

Not necessarily. If you go back far enough.

When I was but a wee tyke, I was a resident of Peel County (later Region of Peel). I was ineligible for the student ID card (issued to Toronto Board of Education students). So I could not use student tickets.

So I had to requisition the funds for adult fares from my suppliers (parents) when I used the TTC, which was at least four times a week.

Then I discovered that I could throw in the student cash fare and no one, and I mean no one, said boo.

With this arbitrage, I could fund the purchase of Ganong's Roman Nougat, and Rowntree Rolos, from the ubiquitous Garfield newsstands.

Mind you, some Old Looks still roamed the streets in those days, until the brontosauruses stepped on them.

[MK78]

Look, I know students try to cheat the system in many ways and it has always happened. In my childhood days the tickets were thick, and you could carefully split it in two, so you had two sides, and you end up sliding it in the fare box hoping it wouldn't flip up, lol.

But with this free rides and operators just not enforcing anything with regards to students, it seems like its a lot of wasted revenue. Heck, since covid they don't even enforce adults getting into buses without even attempting to pay, entering via rear doors at bus stops, or if the presto is declined.

[lip]

6 hours ago, MK78 said:

But with this free rides and operators just not enforcing anything with regards to students, it seems like its a lot of wasted revenue. Heck, since covid they don't even enforce adults getting into buses without even attempting to pay, entering via rear doors at bus stops, or if the presto is declined.

Let's just call a spade a spade, there's basically 0 enforcement anywhere in the system these days so im sure the TTC is bleeding tons of cash, much more then they are letting on (that includes lost fares from the youth). But they and the city seem content with raising fares and cutting service which i'm sure is going to do wonders to ridership based on the ideology of the clown leadership over at the TTC and City of Toronto.

[TransitMotorcoach]

24 minutes ago, lip said:

Let's just call a spade a spade, there's basically 0 enforcement anywhere in the system these days so im sure the TTC is bleeding tons of cash, much more then they are letting on (that includes lost fares from the youth). But they and the city seem content with raising fares and cutting service which i'm sure is going to do wonders to ridership based on the ideology of the clown leadership over at the TTC and City of Toronto.

An example of the zero enforcement is all the people openly and brazenly entering and exiting Kipling station on the bus roadway rather than the station entrances. TTC special constables don't do jack shit about it, not to mention how dangerous it is as well with the massive amount of bus traffic rolling through Kipling station. Hell, today, a TPS officer who happened to be present in his cruiser by the bus entrance had to enforce this, when it should be the special constables doing it regularly. 

[smallspy]

12 hours ago, lip said:

Let's just call a spade a spade, there's basically 0 enforcement anywhere in the system these days so im sure the TTC is bleeding tons of cash, ......

They are bleeding tons of cash because ridership is down. But in terms of enforcement and the people using the system paying their fare, my experience says otherwise.

 

Dan