TTC in the news

[smallspy]

2 hours ago, MK78 said:

Maybe this was enough to scare the city to finally get its head out of its you know what, and be more mindful of the entire city, not just the downtowners when it comes to transit planning.

 

Can we give that bullshit trope of "downtowners versus suburbanites" a rest already?

 

Transit is needed everywhere in this city. Dollars to pay for it, however, are scarce. The fact of the matter is that not everywhere in the City can justify the costs - both of construction, and ongoing maintenance and operation - of a subway to every little corner. That means right-sizing transit where it is best suited and needed.

 

Dan

[MK78]

11 minutes ago, smallspy said:

 

Can we give that bullshit trope of "downtowners versus suburbanites" a rest already?

 

Transit is needed everywhere in this city. Dollars to pay for it, however, are scarce. The fact of the matter is that not everywhere in the City can justify the costs - both of construction, and ongoing maintenance and operation - of a subway to every little corner. That means right-sizing transit where it is best suited and needed.

 

Dan

I would very much like for it to give it a rest, but the fact is that in the past 10+ years due to various feuds among city councillors & mayors, the transit planning has suffered big time. It was very much to do about downtown vs the former regions of Etobicoke, North York & Scarborough.

Lots of money went to other BS pet projects, and not transit.

[nfitz]

3 hours ago, MK78 said:

Maybe this was enough to scare the city to finally get its head out of its you know what, and be more mindful of the entire city, not just the downtowners when it comes to transit planning.

How? The proposed TTC lines that aren't sorted are Sheppard East, mostly in Scarborough. Eglinton East, entirely in Scarborough. The Finch West extensions in Etobicoke and North York, How to provide Line 3 SRT service after the TTC was going to open the Line 2 Scarborough extension in 2026 (now 2030). Not to mention Jane (line 8), which is mostly in North York, and doesn't go downtown.

Surely, this proposed Conservative plan, is putting more stations downtown, than had been proposed by the City.

I don't think it's downtown clamouring for all those suburban lines that Doug Ford is not funding or delaying! Meanwhile, this deal lets the city move money committed for the Line 2 extension in Scarborough to streetcar upgrades, and upgrades to Bloor-Yonge station downtown.

This Conservative plan, is definitely a win for those downtown! Meanwhile, it's more buses for Scarborough:

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2019/10/16/scarborough-rt-riders-may-be-taking-buses-for-years-under-new-city-provincial-deal.html

[smallspy]

5 hours ago, MK78 said:

I would very much like for it to give it a rest, but the fact is that in the past 10+ years due to various feuds among city councillors & mayors, the transit planning has suffered big time. It was very much to do about downtown vs the former regions of Etobicoke, North York & Scarborough.

 

8 hours ago, MK78 said:

Maybe this was enough to scare the city to finally get its head out of its you know what, and be more mindful of the entire city, not just the downtowners when it comes to transit planning.

 

The above quote proves that you're not giving it a rest at all. You're just as much of a problem as the politicians.

 

Dan

[MK78]

6 hours ago, nfitz said:

How? The proposed TTC lines that aren't sorted are Sheppard East, mostly in Scarborough. Eglinton East, entirely in Scarborough. The Finch West extensions in Etobicoke and North York, How to provide Line 3 SRT service after the TTC was going to open the Line 2 Scarborough extension in 2026 (now 2030). Not to mention Jane (line 8), which is mostly in North York, and doesn't go downtown.

Surely, this proposed Conservative plan, is putting more stations downtown, than had been proposed by the City.

I don't think it's downtown clamouring for all those suburban lines that Doug Ford is not funding or delaying! Meanwhile, this deal lets the city move money committed for the Line 2 extension in Scarborough to streetcar upgrades, and upgrades to Bloor-Yonge station downtown.

This Conservative plan, is definitely a win for those downtown! Meanwhile, it's more buses for Scarborough:

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2019/10/16/scarborough-rt-riders-may-be-taking-buses-for-years-under-new-city-provincial-deal.html

Sheppard subway is nearly useless, because it isn't connected to the other side of the north south subway. The SRT replacement has been revised how many times? Mainly due to silly politics. The stupid crosstown is gonna be a massive fustercluck if anything happens anywhere on the line. It'll be worse than streetcars when theres a problem.

I'm not picking political sides who's better or worse here. They're all at fault.

Toronto is a world class city, with a very weak subway system.

[T3G]

I know that a lot of people make this into a downtown vs suburbia issue, but why you, as well? Has downtown gotten the relief line it's been clamouring for since time immemorial?

19 minutes ago, MK78 said:

The stupid crosstown is gonna be a massive fustercluck if anything happens anywhere on the line. It'll be worse than streetcars when theres a problem.

How so?

[nfitz]

3 hours ago, MK78 said:

The stupid crosstown is gonna be a massive fustercluck if anything happens anywhere on the line.

?!?

Intersecting 3 subway lines, and 2 GO lines with all-day service, Line 5 should have far less problems when there's the inevitable shutdown, than Line 1 or Line 2, as it's much more part of a network than anything that preceded it.

But one can always shout at clouds.

[smallspy]

12 hours ago, MK78 said:

Sheppard subway is nearly useless, because it isn't connected to the other side of the north south subway.

And yet, it sees as much or more ridership than many other subways greater in length and around for far longer.

 

12 hours ago, MK78 said:

The SRT replacement has been revised how many times? Mainly due to silly politics.

Not "mainly". Just due to silly politics.

Which you continue to reinforce, by the way.

 

12 hours ago, MK78 said:

The stupid crosstown is gonna be a massive fustercluck if anything happens anywhere on the line. It'll be worse than streetcars when theres a problem.

Are you really that daft?

 

You realize that the Crosstown is the one line that is being built way over the capacity for what is needed, right?

 

12 hours ago, MK78 said:

I'm not picking political sides who's better or worse here. They're all at fault.

Finally, you've managed to say something with the slightest bit of intelligence. Congratulations.

 

12 hours ago, MK78 said:

Toronto is a world class city, with a very weak subway system.

And then you follow it up with another pair of tired tropes. Well done.

 

Dan

[raptorjays]

23 hours ago, nfitz said:

How? The proposed TTC lines that aren't sorted are Sheppard East, mostly in Scarborough. Eglinton East, entirely in Scarborough. The Finch West extensions in Etobicoke and North York, How to provide Line 3 SRT service after the TTC was going to open the Line 2 Scarborough extension in 2026 (now 2030). Not to mention Jane (line 8), which is mostly in North York, and doesn't go downtown.

Surely, this proposed Conservative plan, is putting more stations downtown, than had been proposed by the City.

I don't think it's downtown clamouring for all those suburban lines that Doug Ford is not funding or delaying! Meanwhile, this deal lets the city move money committed for the Line 2 extension in Scarborough to streetcar upgrades, and upgrades to Bloor-Yonge station downtown.

This Conservative plan, is definitely a win for those downtown! Meanwhile, it's more buses for Scarborough:

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2019/10/16/scarborough-rt-riders-may-be-taking-buses-for-years-under-new-city-provincial-deal.html

Well.. except for those living in Liberty Village.. I was actually hoping there would be a station within the Liberty Village

[nfitz]

1 hour ago, raptorjays said:

Well.. except for those living in Liberty Village.. I was actually hoping there would be a station within the Liberty Village

There's a proposed Ontario Line station entrance on Atlantic Avenue, at the bottom, where that new east-west road would go. That's Liberty Village.

They are talking about cross-platform transfers at the existing GO station (though that does seem a bit optimistic - I expect there'll be some elevation or tunnelling)

[Streety McCarface]

On 10/18/2019 at 8:50 AM, smallspy said:

You realize that the Crosstown is the one line that is being built way over the capacity for what is needed, right?

This one confuses me. As far as I'm aware, the crosstown is initially going to run with 2-car LRVs at about 3 minute frequencies (at best). With TTC crowding standards for the flexities hovering at around 140 (it can obviously go to around 170, but not without severely affecting dwell times, especially on Flexities), meaning that the line can handle passenger loads of 5,600 PPHPD. This is projected to be the opening day maximum load if I remember correctly. Certainly this would mean that the line isn't being built "way over capacity", since getting additional vehicles would take at least 2 years, probably 5. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but within a decade, rail projects in Southern Ontario tend to double ridership along the corridor (iON went from about 12K to 21K within 3 months, TYSSE went from about 40K on the York University Rocket to 90K+ and growing, Sheppard went from ~20K to 45K over the first decade of operation, GO ridership on the Barrie, Kitchener, and Stouffville lines have nearly doubled over the past few years (with all the improvements), etc). This is probably going to be more than evident on Eglinton since it is an important crosstown line, with 3 new large bus terminals being introduced throughout Midtown Toronto. While peak ridership may only increase to say 7-8K PPHPD (assuming RER and the Ontario Line are built, and people actually transfer at the termini or at Eglinton West), In the past, Metrolinx project ridership levels on the IOS of 300K PPD by 2031, similar to BD levels. Running a line at peak capacities throughout the entire day may be efficient, but it is more challenging to operate reliably. The line will probably have enough capacity upon opening, but I find it hard to believe that the line's initial capacity will be enough for the decade thereafter. 

[smallspy]

14 minutes ago, Streety McCarface said:

This one confuses me. As far as I'm aware, the crosstown is initially going to run with 2-car LRVs at about 3 minute frequencies (at best). With TTC crowding standards for the flexities hovering at around 140 (it can obviously go to around 170, but not without severely affecting dwell times, especially on Flexities), meaning that the line can handle passenger loads of 5,600 PPHPD. This is projected to be the opening day maximum load if I remember correctly. Certainly this would mean that the line isn't being built "way over capacity", since getting additional vehicles would take at least 2 years, probably 5.

That's because you're only looking at what the line will operate at, not what it will be capable of.

 

The tunneled section of the line has theoretical capacity of the line is far, far higher than that (3 car trains at a sub-2 minute headway per direction). The currently projected ridership, and the ridership for the future, will never come close neither theoretical capacity of the line is nor what the likely break-even point of line will be in terms of costs versus revenues.

 

Dan

[Streety McCarface]

8 hours ago, smallspy said:

That's because you're only looking at what the line will operate at, not what it will be capable of.

 

The tunneled section of the line has theoretical capacity of the line is far, far higher than that (3 car trains at a sub-2 minute headway per direction). The currently projected ridership, and the ridership for the future, will never come close neither theoretical capacity of the line is nor what the likely break-even point of line will be in terms of costs versus revenues.

 

Dan

Practically though, is sub-2 minute ridership even possible? Especially for the Flexities? There are so few doors on them and they take forever to open. I can see 2 minute frequencies, but not 90 second frequencies. 

Assuming we actually get to capacities that high, assuming 90 second frequencies, the theoretical maximum limit is 16K PPHPD. Impressive, but also not out of the realm of the potential 50+ year ridership levels (depending on city growth, car dependence, and shifts in travel patterns). 

Not saying the crosstown design is inherently bad or certainly short sighted (Like Ottawa's or the OL), but it does raise questions for the long term. 

[smallspy]

11 hours ago, Streety McCarface said:

Practically though, is sub-2 minute ridership even possible? Especially for the Flexities? There are so few doors on them and they take forever to open. I can see 2 minute frequencies, but not 90 second frequencies. 

The amount of time that the doors take to open and close - as long as you may perceive it to be - is a very small fraction of actual amount of time any potential minimum headway.

 

In all honesty, the signal system and track layout are going to be the two biggest issues limiting the potential minimum headway. I don't know enough about Bombardier's Cityflo 650 product to say what its limitations are, but  the track layout, at least at the east end of the tunneled section of the line, has been well thought out to allow for quick turn-arounds and insertion back into the flow of traffic.

 

11 hours ago, Streety McCarface said:

Assuming we actually get to capacities that high, assuming 90 second frequencies, the theoretical maximum limit is 16K PPHPD. Impressive, but also not out of the realm of the potential 50+ year ridership levels (depending on city growth, car dependence, and shifts in travel patterns). 

 

Not saying the crosstown design is inherently bad or certainly short sighted (Like Ottawa's or the OL), but it does raise questions for the long term.

 

For the amount of change that you are suggesting, it would require not only major changes to the city's current plan for the areas around Eglinton, but also something close to exponential growth in the TTC's ridership in the corridor.

 

Sure, it's not out of the realm of possibility, but flying cars may happen by then, too. (But no, they won't.)

 

Dan

[Streety McCarface]

9 hours ago, smallspy said:

The amount of time that the doors take to open and close - as long as you may perceive it to be - is a very small fraction of actual amount of time any potential minimum headway.

 

In all honesty, the signal system and track layout are going to be the two biggest issues limiting the potential minimum headway. I don't know enough about Bombardier's Cityflo 650 product to say what its limitations are, but  the track layout, at least at the east end of the tunneled section of the line, has been well thought out to allow for quick turn-arounds and insertion back into the flow of traffic.

Total dwell still adds up, and seconds really count when a train is less than 90 seconds behind yours. It's not really door closures that bother me, but the time it takes from when the doors close to when the train starts, and the time spent open on the platform.

The real variability that comes with dwell times, from my experience, is the usage of the door openers. Bombardier's system is a little silly (from Vienna's at least) in that you have to wait a about a second from when the train stops to when you can press the button to open the door. While that may not sound like a big deal, riders don't really seem to notice this, and trains will often have to wait for passengers that wonder why their door isn't opening, and either push the button after 5 seconds or run to a door on the other side of the train. Vienna doesn't have this problem because you can press a button at any time while the train is in transit and the door will open. If the crosstown operates under this current setup, you could be looking at an extra 5-10 seconds every few stops, and it's that variability that can really throw everything out of wack. 

Though, admittedly, you're right. Dwell times likely aren't the biggest of our concerns, and the signal system itself will probably have more difficulties managing trains at those frequencies. The track layout seems well thought out enough that I doubt there would be any serious issues with emergency turn arounds or peak insertions. 

9 hours ago, smallspy said:

For the amount of change that you are suggesting, it would require not only major changes to the city's current plan for the areas around Eglinton, but also something close to exponential growth in the TTC's ridership in the corridor.

Sure, it's not out of the realm of possibility, but flying cars may happen by then, too. (But no, they won't.)

Dan

It is admittedly a liberal assumption, but I don't believe it's that unreasonable. Cars, whether we like it or not, are going to have to pretty much be removed from the commuting system (not the day to day activities however). With all the people we see moving downtown, space is at a premium and parking will likely be removed to accommodate the shift in transportation methods. Gas is only going to get more and more expensive, and cobalt and lithium are limited. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a huge shift in office and condo construction from downtown to the Eglinton Corridor if the City did some zoning changes. It'll be right on the subway and land will be cheaper. Similar in style to the North York Centre expansion. There are a lot of plans for the Science Centre area already. Planners in the 60s had the foresight to see usage on Yonge and Bloor 50 years into the future. Both those lines weren't nearly as used between their construction and the mid 2000s as they are now. 

The Province provided recent population dynamic projections, and I believe it said that the City of Toronto would be home to 4 million people sometime in the 2040s, that's over a 25% increase. If growth like that continues, the city could be home to 5 million easily within the line's 50 year timeframe. Where do you put those people? How do they get around? Yonge is closing up, Bloor-Danforth and the streetcar suburbs have historic significance (and are nearing capacity), the relief line corridor will mainly exist to remove pressure from Yonge, downtown is filling up. People aren't going to be moving to the annex in droves, and the STC is admittedly less attractive than the Sheppard or Eglinton corridors. 

This is all speculative of course, but the point is that times are completely different. Cars are going to be removed from the equation and available land downtown is hard to come by. Expecting large growth in the 50 year timeframe should be considered, because we only get one shot at building it right. 

[T3G]

2 hours ago, Streety McCarface said:

. Bombardier's system is a little silly (from Vienna's at least) in that you have to wait a about a second from when the train stops to when you can press the button to open the door.

Don't most door request systems have a memory in built that allows you to request a door before the vehicle has docked?

[smallspy]

13 hours ago, Streety McCarface said:

Total dwell still adds up, and seconds really count when a train is less than 90 seconds behind yours. It's not really door closures that bother me, but the time it takes from when the doors close to when the train starts, and the time spent open on the platform.

Let me repeat myself, since you're not getting it....

 

The fraction to complete second that the doors take to open once the vehicle has stopped is a very small fraction of the actual headway. There are far more important things in the whole process that will have a substantial impact on what the actual headway can be.

 

13 hours ago, Streety McCarface said:

The real variability that comes with dwell times, from my experience, is the usage of the door openers. Bombardier's system is a little silly (from Vienna's at least) in that you have to wait a about a second from when the train stops to when you can press the button to open the door. While that may not sound like a big deal, riders don't really seem to notice this, and trains will often have to wait for passengers that wonder why their door isn't opening, and either push the button after 5 seconds or run to a door on the other side of the train. Vienna doesn't have this problem because you can press a button at any time while the train is in transit and the door will open. If the crosstown operates under this current setup, you could be looking at an extra 5-10 seconds every few stops, and it's that variability that can really throw everything out of wack. 

First off, that's not just Bombardier - that's everyone.

 

Second, that has nothing to do with the ATO system. The ATO system will authorize and open the doors far quicker than a human will.

 

13 hours ago, Streety McCarface said:

It is admittedly a liberal assumption, but I don't believe it's that unreasonable. Cars, whether we like it or not, are going to have to pretty much be removed from the commuting system (not the day to day activities however). With all the people we see moving downtown, space is at a premium and parking will likely be removed to accommodate the shift in transportation methods. Gas is only going to get more and more expensive, and cobalt and lithium are limited. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a huge shift in office and condo construction from downtown to the Eglinton Corridor if the City did some zoning changes. It'll be right on the subway and land will be cheaper. Similar in style to the North York Centre expansion. There are a lot of plans for the Science Centre area already. Planners in the 60s had the foresight to see usage on Yonge and Bloor 50 years into the future. Both those lines weren't nearly as used between their construction and the mid 2000s as they are now.

Considering that what you are suggesting is going to require multiple fundamental changes, not it's not likely. The City will have to change how it views Eglinton for planning purposes, and allow a LOT more high-rise residential development to occur on it. (That's not likely to happen.) And the people living there will all have to vastly change their transportation patterns, and only travel along Eglinton - and not across. (That's also not likely to happen.)

 

Will the ridership be higher than what the TTC is projecting? Considering that historically they've been pretty conservative with their projections, it's very possible. But the levels that you are suggesting are so much higher as to not be believable.

 

As for cars going away.....yeah, good luck with that. It was predicted in the 1950s. And the 1970s. And the 1990s. And yet, they're still here.

 

The fact of the matter is that humans like their privacy and mobility, and heaven help you if you try and take it away from them. There are ways to improve the modal split, and cars will become a smaller and smaller fraction of the total commuting number, sure. But to think that cars are simply going to go away because, well.......we need to? Yeah, not going to happen.

 

As for Bloor and Yonge, foresight had nothing to do with it. Both of those lines were simply not capable of handling more people. It wasn't a matter of "lets build it for the future", it was a matter of "we need to carry more people today, but we can't".

 

13 hours ago, Streety McCarface said:

The Province provided recent population dynamic projections, and I believe it said that the City of Toronto would be home to 4 million people sometime in the 2040s, that's over a 25% increase. If growth like that continues, the city could be home to 5 million easily within the line's 50 year timeframe. Where do you put those people? How do they get around? Yonge is closing up, Bloor-Danforth and the streetcar suburbs have historic significance (and are nearing capacity), the relief line corridor will mainly exist to remove pressure from Yonge, downtown is filling up. People aren't going to be moving to the annex in droves, and the STC is admittedly less attractive than the Sheppard or Eglinton corridors. 

This is why the City's building plans have always featured some level of de-centralization of the downtown business core, and have for many, many years. They are acutely aware of the problems of trying to stuff that many people into the 240-some-odd square miles of this City. The idea is to bring the work closer to the people, rather than trying to get more people to the same area.

 

Dan

[drum118]

Number of planned TTC subway closures to more than double next year

[raptorjays]

https://www.cp24.com/news/ttc-board-wants-to-hike-most-fares-by-ten-cents-in-march-2020-1.4729593

This is totally dumb... since there won't be any merit using presto card..

There's only 5 cent difference between paying in cash and in presto

[nfitz]

2 hours ago, raptorjays said:

This is totally dumb... since there won't be any merit using presto card..

There's only 5 cent difference between paying in cash and in presto

On one hand I agree. On the other hand, I see lots of people using debit to buy a $1 drink these days ... those of us who carry around coins are like dinosaurs ...

[Wayside Observer]

18 minutes ago, nfitz said:

On one hand I agree. On the other hand, I see lots of people using debit to buy a $1 drink these days ... those of us who carry around coins are like dinosaurs ...

I passed by a hotdog stand near the southwest corner of Queen and University a few weeks changing from the streetcar to the subway and it had a big sign on it saying “Cash Only”.  I thought to myself, this is a hotdog stand.  Of course it’s cash only!  I guess there are people who need to be told that there are small cash only businesses still.

If anybody is getting hurt by the lack of coins in pockets these days, it has to be buskers.  “Tap to pay” into the instrument case of a musician playing in the subway station or on a street corner isn’t something that can be done.

[Streety McCarface]

2 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

I passed by a hotdog stand near the southwest corner of Queen and University a few weeks changing from the streetcar to the subway and it had a big sign on it saying “Cash Only”.  I thought to myself, this is a hotdog stand.  Of course it’s cash only!  I guess there are people who need to be told that there are small cash only businesses still.

If anybody is getting hurt by the lack of coins in pockets these days, it has to be buskers.  “Tap to pay” into the instrument case of a musician playing in the subway station or on a street corner isn’t something that can be done.

These days, you can turn your phone into a contactless reader, so I can understand why some people would expect them to accept debit/credit. 

That being said, people shouldn't have that mindset, given how it can get you in trouble. 

[Ed T.]

14 hours ago, raptorjays said:

https://www.cp24.com/news/ttc-board-wants-to-hike-most-fares-by-ten-cents-in-march-2020-1.4729593

This is totally dumb... since there won't be any merit using presto card..

There's only 5 cent difference between paying in cash and in presto

 

Presto gives you two-hour transfer. I've used that feature a few times, where paying by cash at taking a transfer would require two or three fares (even if I was pushing the boundaries of the transfer rules).

And right now, I have the choice of taking TTC downtown for $3.10 on Presto, or the train from Long Branch GO for $4.00. There can still be good reasons to take the TTC, but as the TTC gets more expensive compared to GO, the train becomes preferred. And of course I do need a Presto card for GO, so I will use it for TTC as well.*

*Actually I have two Presto cards; I use one for GO and the other for TTC. I don't use either that much; the cards are not registered; and I usually top up with cash at the GO station.

[nfitz]

3 hours ago, Ed T. said:

*Actually I have two Presto cards; I use one for GO and the other for TTC. I don't use either that much; the cards are not registered; and I usually top up with cash at the GO station.

You won't get the $1.50 discount transferring to/from GO/TTC with Presto if you use separate cards during the same trip.

[drum118]

5 hours ago, nfitz said:

You won't get the $1.50 discount transferring to/from GO/TTC with Presto if you use separate cards during the same trip.

Why 2 when you can do everything on one card.

I use my card on all GTA transit systems, as well in Ottawa without any problems. I used to have my card setup for a trip between 2 points that only allows me to tap once at my start point.