Durham Region Transit

[Guest DRT 8173]

411 or 412. I saw the description of I think the 412 describing from downtown and its changed routing. My feeling is that its' not starting/ending its trips at Oshawa Centre?

411 / 412 routes have always been starting/ ending trips at the Oshawa Centre (OC) and it still is the same start/end on the upcoming changes.

411 is the only one going through downtown.

as for 412, instead of its current routing to Adelaide via Park Rd, on the changes it's routing is extended west to Stevenson... and then the extension to Courtice part..

[2822]

How many extra buses will be needed for service? Is it possible the V's or VI's may need to be brought back?

[BrandonC]

I cannot believe it is almost May 2015 and the schedules are still only available in PDF! The website does not reflow to mobile devices, no google transit, no DRT app, and no way of knowing whether a bus is running late unless you follow DRT on Twitter and they happen to tweet about that particular bus. Honestly the pace at which DRT embraces technology disgusts me and I'm not even being hyperbolic.

[J. Bullock]

I cannot believe it is almost May 2015 and the schedules are still only available in PDF! The website does not reflow to mobile devices, no google transit, no DRT app, and no way of knowing whether a bus is running late unless you follow DRT on Twitter and they happen to tweet about that particular bus. Honestly the pace at which DRT embraces technology disgusts me and I'm not even being hyperbolic.

All things aformentioned, schedule finder, google transit, Transit app, all launching in May,

[newflyerinvero]

From a DRT fleet perspective, 8412, which I first thought was a Westney Division bus was on the 405 last Friday. So, maybe some minor touchups on the wiki with that as well as 8510 and 11 are both Westney Division buses rather then Raleigh.

[DavidH]

All things aformentioned, schedule finder, google transit, Transit app, all launching in May,

And so it begins.

New per-route combination map/schedules just announced by DRT on Twitter. These are still PDFs - presumably the other elements are still coming - but these are VERY nice.

And from these, it looks like the 222 Audley South will be interlined with 923, which eliminates the apparent forced transfer that through service on Bayly east/west of Westney would have introduced as of May.

Also interesting, all of the schedules have the Pulse "stripe" on the front, just above the DRT logo. I wonder if this is a new branding element.

[DavidH]

DRT's new GPS-based bus arrival system is online.

https://drtonline.durhamregiontransit.com/onlineinfo/

Only gives you the next bus time, so it's not going to solve the problem of planning for later in the day.

Hopefully GTFS data will be available soon to enable the Transit app and others.

[J. Bullock]

DRT's new GPS-based bus arrival system is online.

https://drtonline.durhamregiontransit.com/onlineinfo/

Only gives you the next bus time, so it's not going to solve the problem of planning for later in the day.

Hopefully GTFS data will be available soon to enable the Transit app and others.

It's a start! With the feeds available online, it should be on GTFS soon. Along with Transit.

[BrandonC]

Is that showing live departures because I'm watching the busses at bond & simcoe and it looks more like it's just using the schedules to calculate the times.

David, where did you get that link anyway?

[DavidH]

It's a start! With the feeds available online, it should be on GTFS soon. Along with Transit.

DRT says Region's policies prevent GTFS. Will write more later but we may need an organized campaign to regional politicians talking about how this wastes tax money.

Is that showing live departures because I'm watching the busses at bond & simcoe and it looks more like it's just using the schedules to calculate the times.

David, where did you get that link anyway?

Link is in main DRT page.

[BrandonC]

we may need an organized campaign to regional politicians talking about how this wastes tax money.

Agreed. I'd sign a petition or go to a council meeting with others. We need something like Toronto's "Open Data" initiative.

[J. Bullock]

Maybe we can arrange something online, and send it to regional council?

[DavidH]

Maybe we can arrange something online, and send it to regional council?

I have no experience in doing something like this so I can't really say what the best approach is, but there are a few things I do know:

1) Regional Council has little direct involvement with DRT. They approve the minutes of the DRT Executive Committee and also meet once a year as as "DRT Commission" to approve the actions of the Executive - the latter occurs because the legal responsibility for DRT rests with the Commission but they found it unwieldy to use that structure routinely early on. I think we're best to go to the Executive.

2) If you watch the Executive agenda, it's not uncommon for letters from the public to be considered. Often these are referred for information (that is pronounced "ignored") but there is at least a chance of making the "open data" argument to the politicians on the committee in a positive way. One possibility is to focus on tax savings - having GTFS data means that DRT does not have to pay for the production of apps, but can rely on people like the Transit app guys to do the work for "free".

I don't really know how firm this regional policy is - whether it's really a barrier for DRT or whether it's being used as an excuse for a DRT decision. Challenging it via the Executive, and perhaps via our own individual regional councillors (and don't forget your mayor is also a regional councillor) is probably the best way to address it from that angle.

3) An online petition seems risky. Yes, it might be hugely successful but I suspect it would be challenging to explain a relatively complex issue like GTFS to the average rider. If a petition flops, it could damage the effort worse than if there never had been a petition.

4) There may be a Metrolinx angle here. There is a "Big Move" item for a common regional information portal - DRT would need to provide the data for that if it happens. I have no idea what the status on it is, though - it seems to be lingering. Perhaps more fruitfully it may be worth checking to see whether the Metrolinx dollars for the Pulse service bring any requirements for open data.

5) I've already raised the point with whoever runs the DRT twitter account that DRT already provides this data in PDF and HTML format (the GPS based schedule information from a few posts ago); the issue here is not the availability of this information but rather the format it is provided in. And also note that DRT admits it has this in GTFS format already; it's just not making a GTFS feed public. So perhaps focussing on it being an extra data format, rather than sharing of "new" data, is the way to approach it.

I don't really have the time or energy at this point to lead such an effort on this, though I'm happy to provide thoughts and support to anyone who does. Does anyone want to take this on?

[BrandonC]

I feel like when it comes to politics that it takes a lot of energy just to get to the point where councillors say "we agree with your point, but are unable to accomplish what you're asking under current legislation."

Am I wrong to think that this--namely, to open the raw data as other municipalities do--is actually a relatively minor thing, and that we could get the ball rolling on it simply by getting the attention of someone high enough up in either the DRT or Durham Region?

Should we focus our efforts on simply figuring out which straw to ply, that is, to whom we need to make our points on this known, in order for that councillor/executive/whoever to understand the issue (which does take some explaining to really comprehend from the rider's pov) and hope he/she can either push for the change in the right committee, or at least tell us, the public, where and how to concentrate any further efforts needed?

It may be that a petition needs to be signed, a meeting needs to be attended, or some other pressure put on (media attention maybe?) but it would seem at this point that we haven't a clear idea of what or to whom we even need to speak.

I guess what I'm saying is that my experience tells me that to solve a problem in a large organization (or possibly in this case, the communication of policies between two organizations) we must get to the crux of what is preventing DRT from releasing the data, or even if it is to a particular service (Google et al.) that they are prohibited from doing so. What is it exactly that is prohibiting them, and what in particularly are they prohibited from doing?

P.S. I wanted to add that I just noticed of the region's calendar that there is a Transit advisory meeting tonight at 7pm:

http://www.durham.ca/apps/clerks/calendar/pdf.aspx?id=19855

Is this open to the public? Anyone been to one of these? What other meetings related to DRT are routinely held (it says at the bottom of that PDF "next meeting: June 2")?

What is accomplished at a meeting like this, can residents speak, and what is the procedure to request time to speak? How much time do you get?

Thanks y'all. If anyone wants to discuss any of this (or other stuff I've left out) please contact me on Twitter @brandon_macuser and we can exchange thoughts or handles to communicate elsewhere.

[DavidH]

Is this open to the public? Anyone been to one of these? What other meetings related to DRT are routinely held (it says at the bottom of that PDF "next meeting: June 2")?

What is accomplished at a meeting like this, can residents speak, and what is the procedure to request time to speak? How much time do you get?

They're open to the public, and I've attended a couple, but the public can't speak unless you've arranged to depute. I'm not sure how one does that but I'd imagine a request to the regional Clerk's office would get you that information.

The advisory committee is mostly made up of members of the public selected to participate, with one regional councillor acting as Chair. A few staff participate as well. From what I can see, it looks as if those advisory meetings are covering less and less over the years. This may be uncharitable but my sense is that many of the participants are people with specific hobbyhorses, and there's an element of consultation as a formality rather than anything else. Still if you can get there early, you might be able to raise the issue in conversation with some of the members.

The main meetings are the executive committee; the next one is on May 20th, unfortunately in the afternoon.

I kinda wish I still had my DRT blog; it'd be a useful channel for this. When I (rarely) go to DRT public events, I still get DRT staff coming up to me to talk. But no, I sank that ship to the bottom of the ocean for a reason, and I don't have any desire to revive it.

[BrandonC]

The advisory committee is mostly made up of members of the public selected to participate, with one regional councillor acting as Chair. A few staff participate as well. From what I can see, it looks as if those advisory meetings are covering less and less over the years. This may be uncharitable but my sense is that many of the participants are people with specific hobbyhorses, and there's an element of consultation as a formality rather than anything else. Still if you can get there early, you might be able to raise the issue in conversation with some of the members.

The main meetings are the executive committee; the next one is on May 20th, unfortunately in the afternoon.

Thanks David. I strongly believe in transparent governing and that all data that can safely be made open should be, and while I called the region hq and was told I could speak tonight if a two thirds majority agreed, it sounds like I'd be striking the air, so to speak. Having DRT data incorporated into something like the Transit app or Google Maps would be so valuable, but the $5.70 it would cost me to get to the meeting and back via DRT hardly even seems worth it if it doesn't lead to a step in the direction we want (nor do I believe DRT deserves my money at this point. What an ironic ending.)

Honestly it might be easier to just continue contributing to openstreetmap.org as I have done in the past and once their transit project takes off (couple that with a killer app, maybe for wearables) we might be able to effectively leapfrog DRT and create our own machine readable database. Anyone know whether app developers would be able to incorporate this data?

There is a precedent that comes to mind I remember reading about that happened in the UK: Many were concerned because the database of post codes and how they linked to specific addresses was not generally searchable or available to the public, so a sort of crowdsourced database was created at http://www.freethepostcode.org which I believe eventually forced the government to release the data when they realized the power of the Internet would simply ignore and overtake them if they didn't.

[J. Bullock]

Honestly it might be easier to just continue contributing to openstreetmap.org as I have done in the past and once their transit project takes off (couple that with a killer app, maybe for wearables) we might be able to effectively leapfrog DRT and create our own machine readable database. Anyone know whether app developers would be able to incorporate this data?

Is this similar to Darwin O'Connor's TransSee for TTC? If so, I would be interested, PM me if something comes up.

To shift topics slightly, are there any wiki editors out there that would be willing to work together with me to get all the new route pages up on DRT's wiki? I have a template, including an infobox, which I can PM you, if anyone is interested. I'm attempting for it to be done by the 1st.

[FutureHeartsJunkie]

I kinda wish I still had my DRT blog; it'd be a useful channel for this. When I (rarely) go to DRT public events, I still get DRT staff coming up to me to talk. But no, I sank that ship to the bottom of the ocean for a reason, and I don't have any desire to revive it.

I'm merely on the same boat (pun intended) as you, dude. I used to be active with my blogging as well, but sadly I've closed down my blog back in November 2014. I used to discuss stuff about transit and general stuff that revolves around me (yes, and I know that some of you that posting a link to my blog is considered bad manners, but I just want to provide my second opinion - think about my former blog as the "Fox News of Blogging" (any Fox News Channel fans in this board?).

As for DRT-related stuff, one of my favourite routes that I rode on a regular basis - the 225 Audley North will see a slight change. Besides I don't usually go out on a Sunday, but still the changes on that route isn't that significant.

I also wanted to ask to anyone that in regards to the automated announcements on the DRT buses - what does "J1708 Down" (or something like that) mean? I can still hear the next stop announcements, but from the experience that I saw when riding on a DRT bus (such as the 900 Pulse), I saw the display that says "J1708 Down".

Any idea?

[J. Bullock]

also wanted to ask to anyone that in regards to the automated announcements on the DRT buses - what does "J1708 Down" (or something like that) mean? I can still hear the next stop announcements, but from the experience that I saw when riding on a DRT bus (such as the 900 Pulse), I saw the display that says "J1708 Down".

Any idea?

It's a generalized crash code. When the system crashes during a run it displays the J down code. A J1708UP code is a reboot code, when the system is trying to re calibrate

MID 113 is similar, but that means it crashed on startup.

[FutureHeartsJunkie]

ICAHMI, DRT Fare Media (this includes DRT passes, tickets and/or transfers) will no longer be accepted for travel on GO bus routes 88 (Peterborough/Oshawa) and 91 (Newcastle/Oshawa GO Express) as of May 1st, 2015. GO bus route 90 will not be affected by the change.

Source: http://www.durhamregiontransit.com/Fares/Pages/DRT%20and%20GO%20One%20Fare%20Anywhere.aspx

FYI, ICAHMI = In Case Anyone Had Missed It

[newflyerinvero]

I was given notice by user drtwatch that the reason the exterior announcements on DRT buses was turned off was due to numerous complaints amongst residents that, when buses during the late night service would stop to drop off or pick up passengers (is it both)?, that the announcements would be loud enough to wake them up.
At first I had dismissed that as a lame excuse but, apparently it is true.
Pity. Where a law to abide by AODA is essential, residents would still tell DRT to keep the announcements off.
Ok, then would it be best to have the announcements on during the day then off at night to not disturb the Durham non-deep sleepers?
On another topic, other then Pickering Town Centre where I had picked up the new individual route schedules/maps for Pickering routes that will be changing on Monday, are the other municipalities' route maps & schedules only available at their own cities? I seem to have problems trying to find the rest of them yesterday.

[Guest DRT 8173]

On another topic, other then Pickering Town Centre where I had picked up the new individual route schedules/maps for Pickering routes that will be changing on Monday, are the other municipalities' route maps & schedules only available at their own cities? I seem to have problems trying to find the rest of them yesterday.

I wonder that too, newflyer.

I did went to the Oshawa bus terminal the other day and only found Oshawa routes (oddly, they only had routes 401 and 402 schedules/maps) along with 900 pulse..

either DRT only made routes/schedules available to its service area or they're still printing out copies and haven't distributed yet..

I'm checking back tomorrow again, if not, might have to make long trip.

[DavidH]

I wonder that too, newflyer.

I did went to the Oshawa bus terminal the other day and only found Oshawa routes (oddly, they only had routes 401 and 402 schedules/maps) along with 900 pulse..

either DRT only made routes/schedules available to its service area or they're still printing out copies and haven't distributed yet..

I'm checking back tomorrow again, if not, might have to make long trip.

At Ajax, there MAY be schedules available at the convenience store that celebrates tickets, but there is nothing visible on the information board or at individual bus platforms.

As well, go look at the DRT web site with the eyes of the average rider. The ONLY indication of major route changes is a graphic on the right, with relatively small text under the heading "Check your schedule". I suspect most people will glance right past this as typical site clutter.

Sadly, I'm not surprised at how this is being handled. There may be a lot of very surprised passengers on Monday.

[BrandonC]

Interestingly, today the Ontario government announced an open data initiative: "Public uses for this data could include building maps, apps and models."

Yet Durham Region and DRT sits on their data like a greedy king while we suffer the inconvenience of having the only transit system in the GTHA not in Google Maps.

http://news.ontario.ca/tbs/en/2015/05/ontario-releases-open-data-directive-for-public-feedback.html

[DavidH]

DRT Tools

Don't get excited; it's just a splash page advertising coming tech things. What's also interesting, though, is the use of the Pulse-style DRT logo on this page.

Meanwhile, there's a notice on the site that DRT is experiencing higher than normal call volumes. I wonder why... :-)

Somewhat related; the more I use the DRT site these days, the more I want to cry. It's just such a weak overall effort, and with bad usability There's way too much of the "to see a map, click here" thing where only "here" is a hyperlink, just as one example.

Also, still no sign of a true regional map on the site. Has anyone seen one in print, or have they decided it's too much trouble to produce a single map of their entire system?