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1 hour ago, littlewill1166 said:

I thought you were speculating, I didn't think that was an actual confirmed answer. It would still be something that would be nice to have given that 2-hour transfers are now a thing.

Agreed.  Anyone who got used to Presto on the 905 systems and/or GO long before it got rolled out on the TTC became accustomed to having both the time remaining and balance remaining shown on the display when the card's tapped.  Going from that to the checkmark or x display on the TTC Presto readers that simply indicates a Yay or Nay on that it was able to read the card and didn't bounce is like an oversimplified step backwards.

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3 hours ago, littlewill1166 said:

I thought you were speculating, I didn't think that was an actual confirmed answer. It would still be something that would be nice to have given that 2-hour transfers are now a thing.

 

It's not speculation - the TTC has received the legal opinion that displaying personal user information such as the balance and time left could be seen as a violation of ones privacy, and thus they are erring on the side of caution.

 

Dan

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34 minutes ago, smallspy said:

It's not speculation - the TTC has received the legal opinion that displaying personal user information such as the balance and time left could be seen as a violation of ones privacy, and thus they are erring on the side of caution.

Totally out of your hands of course ...

Though there's nothing stopping Presto adding a setting to their website, to let people opt-in to see their time left, if they so choose.

And I'm not sure how "time left" would be a privacy invasion once those paper Presto tickets come around. (that's might be a confusion nightmare - how does one keep track of which paper tickets one has used, and which one hasn't - everywhere else I can think of, such paper tickets get something printed on them).

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47 minutes ago, smallspy said:

 

It's not speculation - the TTC has received the legal opinion that displaying personal user information such as the balance and time left could be seen as a violation of ones privacy, and thus they are erring on the side of caution.

 

Dan

Not necessarily if it's displayed on the VISION console. If that's the case then the app that fare inspectors use to query cards is also a privacy violation.

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3 hours ago, smallspy said:

 

It's not speculation - the TTC has received the legal opinion that displaying personal user information such as the balance and time left could be seen as a violation of ones privacy, and thus they are erring on the side of caution.

That's actually quite sad, the world we live in today... I've seen people tap their presto and get the red X, and i've heard one person say "I wish it would display how much I have left", and another say "I wish it gave a warning when I'm getting low on funds". Both of these were people over 50 years of age, so clearly they're still getting used to Presto and don't have auto refill set up, or maybe haven't registered their cards at all and are just refilling in the Presto fare machines.

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4 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

Why don't they just let people opt out. Let people select if we don't want the info so others can't see it on the website and have it updated to the card. This city is way too special if someone can sue for stupid things like this.

Someone will probably correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole Yes/No being the only option for displays on the TTC PRESTO readers stems partially from the fact that there was no readily available way to make the 905/GO readers AODA-compliant without getting into privacy issues (i.e. having the readers announce your balance).  The TTC has already been taken to task about other AODA compliance measures and I guess they were just trying to stay ahead of another lawsuit.

If you're starting a PRESTO trip at a subway station, I guess you could grab a transfer after paying your fare, which you can use as a general timestamp as to when your 2-hour window expires (I've seen some transfer machines with some wildly inaccurate times).

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1 minute ago, Gil said:

If you're starting a PRESTO trip at a subway station, I guess you could grab a transfer after paying your fare, which you can use as a general timestamp as to when your 2-hour window expires (I've seen some transfer machines with some wildly inaccurate times).

Those will be gone soon once the rollout presto single use fare media. There will be no way for anyone to check those single fares for expiry time

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22 hours ago, littlewill1166 said:

Not necessarily if it's displayed on the VISION console. If that's the case then the app that fare inspectors use to query cards is also a privacy violation.

 

But once again, you're assuming that the drivers will have any access to that info. They won't.

 

The hardware that the fare inspectors use allows the current fare information to be shown only to them, and not everyone one else on the vehicle. Thus there's no concern about any invasion of privacy - especially considering they need that information to perform their duties.


Dan

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If the TTC wants to comply with AODA without compromises, how about displaying the time remaining for transfer when people tap, but instead of using the xxHxxM format which would be obvious to all, use a pie chart, timer-like indication. Some people might find it more readable, especially those with vision problems and perhaps the illiterate who can't recognize numerals. This would not be possible on, say, the GO readers, which have dot-matrix alphanumeric displays incapable of graphics, but perfectly suits the colour LCD screens on the TTC's readers.

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On November 21, 2018 at 1:28 PM, smallspy said:

 

It's not speculation - the TTC has received the legal opinion that displaying personal user information such as the balance and time left could be seen as a violation of ones privacy, and thus they are erring on the side of caution.

 

Dan

Well, I'll give them this:  at least they aren't taking the Pennsylvania Turnpike approach to thing and taking away the Yay/Nay display about whether the card transaction was successful or not.  They've been getting rid of the traffic signals that show red and then light up green with "EZ PASS GO" written over the signal lens.  Now, you slowly roll through the toll plazas and...maybe...maybe not... and you don't know until your invoice comes and there's plate read fees or not.  Can you imagine blindly tapping your Presto card and not knowing until you happen across a fare inspector and they give you a ticket if the tap didn't register?

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11 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

Can you imagine blindly tapping your Presto card and not knowing until you happen across a fare inspector and they give you a ticket if the tap didn't register?

 

The machines light green if the transaction is successful, light red if it is not, and light green and yellow for any number of different circumstances. The readers on the vehicles even give a large check mark on a green background or an X on a red background if the tap is good or not. There are corresponding different tones emitted from the machines as well. It's patently obvious to the cardholder what their current status is.

With POP being rolled out across the TTC system soon, the onus will be on the passenger to ensure his or her due diligence and make sure that they correct tapped into the system. This is no different than any other POP system across the planet.


Dan

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2 hours ago, smallspy said:

 

The machines light green if the transaction is successful, light red if it is not, and light green and yellow for any number of different circumstances. The readers on the vehicles even give a large check mark on a green background or an X on a red background if the tap is good or not. There are corresponding different tones emitted from the machines as well. It's patently obvious to the cardholder what their current status is.

With POP being rolled out across the TTC system soon, the onus will be on the passenger to ensure his or her due diligence and make sure that they correct tapped into the system. This is no different than any other POP system across the planet.


Dan

I was speaking hypothetically about what the situation would be like if all user feedback were to be removed from the system.  By chance, were you the helpful young man on the PCC on September 23rd who was telling people how to use Presto cards in between imitating air horn sounds?

Edited by Wayside Observer
Typo on date
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1 hour ago, smallspy said:

There are corresponding different tones emitted from the machines as well. It's patently obvious to the cardholder what their current status is.

If the machine is functioning. I'm generally noticing that about 10% of the machines just aren't working when you tap them, with some of those looking like they are working, but just not processing anyone's cards.

More disturbingly, recently I've noticed some (maybe 5%) of machines are working fine, show everything properly, but don't make any noise!

I've also surprisingly noticed, that as time goes on, the number of machines either not working, or not making noise, is getting larger!

How does someone who is blind differentiate between an otherwise fully functioning machine that isn't making noises, and a machine that isn't working?

The ever-increasing failure rate of these Metrolinx devices is very disappointing.

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22 hours ago, nfitz said:

If the machine is functioning. I'm generally noticing that about 10% of the machines just aren't working when you tap them, with some of those looking like they are working, but just not processing anyone's cards.

While they do still seem to be failing on a regular basis, my experience has been that a somewhat lower number than the 1 in 10 that you are suggesting aren't working on my daily commute

 

22 hours ago, nfitz said:

More disturbingly, recently I've noticed some (maybe 5%) of machines are working fine, show everything properly, but don't make any noise!

I too have seen this on two or three machines. I would have hoped that they would have had some sort of self-diagnosing function to indicate this kind of error (and maybe they do and simply log it rather than remove themselves from service).

 

22 hours ago, nfitz said:

I've also surprisingly noticed, that as time goes on, the number of machines either not working, or not making noise, is getting larger!

I'm not sure that it has. They seem to have never achieved the desired level of reliability that Presto claimed they would, however.

 

23 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

By chance, were you the helpful young man on the PCC on September 23rd who was telling people how to use Presto cards in between imitating air horn sounds?

The time that has passed since I could be referred to as a "young man" can be measured in decades. So no, it wasn't me.

 

Dan

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1 hour ago, smallspy said:

While they do still seem to be failing on a regular basis, my experience has been that a somewhat lower number than the 1 in 10 that you are suggesting aren't working on my daily commute

Always hard to estimate. It's definitely worse than 1 in 20. Looking in my card history - 21 taps last week from Monday to Friday.

I definitely see one a week during my commute. Close to 2 I think. Offhand, last week was better. Some days I see 3 in a day! It seems far worse in the evenings.

I don't report all (or often even most) of the broken Prestocard readers that I encounter. I only 2 last week. 1 the previous week. 2 the week before that, 4 the week before that.

I'm pretty comfortable with saying 1 in 10. At best it's 1 in 20.

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On 11/23/2018 at 10:33 AM, nfitz said:

If the machine is functioning. I'm generally noticing that about 10% of the machines just aren't working when you tap them, with some of those looking like they are working, but just not processing anyone's cards.

More disturbingly, recently I've noticed some (maybe 5%) of machines are working fine, show everything properly, but don't make any noise!

I've also surprisingly noticed, that as time goes on, the number of machines either not working, or not making noise, is getting larger!

How does someone who is blind differentiate between an otherwise fully functioning machine that isn't making noises, and a machine that isn't working?

The ever-increasing failure rate of these Metrolinx devices is very disappointing.

I haven't seen that many not functioning recently. I don't know which end of the city you travel on mostly, but the vehicles I take the most often are from Eglinton & Birchmount garages, so perhaps those have a better track record?

But I have encountered ones that don't make any noise. It's especially weird when you enter after someone tapped, and you tap yourself, not sure if it registered or not. I typicall wear headphones, but i usually turn the volume down to hear the beep.

In any case I don't think I have anything to worry about, since I have a monthly pass fare loaded, so even if I am stopped by an fare inspector and a tap isn't registered I don't think I would have any issues.

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1 hour ago, MK78 said:

I haven't seen that many not functioning recently. I don't know which end of the city you travel on mostly, but the vehicles I take the most often are from Eglinton & Birchmount garages, so perhaps those have a better track record?

Streetcars mostly. But I see buses often enough - perhaps not as much recently on buses - which are Birchmount mostly. As I've noted, it's worse in the evening - at least on the streetcars.

1 hour ago, MK78 said:

In any case I don't think I have anything to worry about, since I have a monthly pass fare loaded, so even if I am stopped by an fare inspector and a tap isn't registered I don't think I would have any issues.

Ditto. If I'm using my wife's card that doesn't have a pass on it, I'm more likely to try and tap elsewhere on the same vehicle - though typically most of my trips have two legs, so they get me somewhere ...

Meanwhile, out an about today, I can see why there are issues. Getting off a 506 at Main Street today, there was a fare inspector trying to inspect people at they walked from the streetcar to the station; if there was a second one there, I didn't see them. She seemed to think everyone was going to line up or something, while she checked everyone .... no, a couple of people stopped, and everyone else just walks past. How is this going to catch anyone? I haven't seen inspectors on a vehicle for months - or anywhere actually ... though I rarely get to termini.

Later entering the subway at Christie, someone tried to tap unsuccessfully at a couple of machines ... and then when it keeps refusing to open (why not flash a reason?) she walked past the attendant simply flashing her PrestoCard ... okay ...

 

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1 hour ago, nfitz said:

Streetcars mostly. But I see buses often enough - perhaps not as much recently on buses - which are Birchmount mostly. As I've noted, it's worse in the evening - at least on the streetcars.

Ditto. If I'm using my wife's card that doesn't have a pass on it, I'm more likely to try and tap elsewhere on the same vehicle - though typically most of my trips have two legs, so they get me somewhere ...

Meanwhile, out an about today, I can see why there are issues. Getting off a 506 at Main Street today, there was a fare inspector trying to inspect people at they walked from the streetcar to the station; if there was a second one there, I didn't see them. She seemed to think everyone was going to line up or something, while she checked everyone .... no, a couple of people stopped, and everyone else just walks past. How is this going to catch anyone? I haven't seen inspectors on a vehicle for months - or anywhere actually ... though I rarely get to termini.

Later entering the subway at Christie, someone tried to tap unsuccessfully at a couple of machines ... and then when it keeps refusing to open (why not flash a reason?) she walked past the attendant simply flashing her PrestoCard ... okay ...

 

Good luck with that. Everyone doesn't have time to line up nicely so they can be inspected while missing their bus or subway connections. Even with two or three inspectors, if all of them end up stopping someone, everyone behind would walk past them.

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14 hours ago, nfitz said:

Later entering the subway at Christie, someone tried to tap unsuccessfully at a couple of machines ... and then when it keeps refusing to open (why not flash a reason?) she walked past the attendant simply flashing her PrestoCard ... okay ...

This is what gets me with the oversimplified TTC Presto readout.  If everything works, great, but if not, you can end up hooped and completely blind about doing anything about it.  It happened to me back in the summer of 2017 which is important to keep in mind because it predates the two hour transfer on TTC.  My truck was in the shop for servicing which is normally no big deal, except I had a football practice that night so I took all my gear into work, sat it underneath my workbench, and then hopped on the subway and went across town and took the bus down to the playing field.  And discovered that the practice had been rained out and cancelled while I had no cell signal in the subway.  I stayed for a while in case anybody else showed up who hadn't heard and another guy eventually arrived.  Nobody else did, and the other guy had driven so I was able to get a ride back to the subway, so far so good, but trying to get back on the subway at Warden, all the Presto readers rejected my card.  There was plenty of money on it but every last one of them rejected my card.  The station attendant/collector was helpful but neither of us could get it to go.  We thought maybe the system logic wasn't handling re-entering the subway system gracefully with some interaction with the table of permitted transfers at the time.  He eventually gave up and waved me through one of the gates.  I'm just glad it happened at a subway station indoors out of the weather instead of an argument with a bus driver in the pouring rain carrying a bag with a ton of gear in it.  But jeez, no details is not helpful.

On November 24, 2018 at 9:08 AM, smallspy said:

The time that has passed since I could be referred to as a "young man" can be measured in decades. So no, it wasn't me.

 

Dan

I guess it must not have been you then.  Whoever it was on that PCC car, I was hoping he'd do a lake freighter horn.  Based on how loud he was on the others, it's possible he might have had the lung capacity to pull it off.

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