PRESTO - GTA Discussion

[nfitz]

I can't say I disagree with anything you just said. I'm just observing how we got here ... not that it is sensible.

[smallspy]

6 hours ago, MK78 said:

Ok I might have been a bit harsh, but he's still being a bit obtuse with the issue. Does he have any ideas how to implement this so visually impaired people can get their balance? Is announcing it loudly the solution? Then the privacy advocates are gonna cry omg you're telling the world i have zero balance it makes me feel bad.

The station readers and the self-reloading machines all have the ability to have headphones plugged into them, allowing both visually-impaired and hearing-impaired people the same and equal access to their use as non-impaired people.

 

The current bus and streetcar readers do not have that ability, and thus are the problem. The faregates completely bypass the issue as they don't have readouts at all.

 

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But then again like I said, what about people that are both visually & hearing impaired?

See above.

 

 

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I'm all for making the system more accessible, but not everything can be made to accommodate everyone.

If it can be done, shouldn't it be?

 

That would be like saying "screw the elevators, its too much effort"....despite all of their obvious advantages to anyone who is and isn't physically impaired.

 

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Why isn't he suing the other GTA transit authorities or taking them to human rights kangaroo courts?

You'll have to ask him that.

 

Dan

[Xtrazsteve]

Maybe I should start protesting how visually impaired people take so much more of taxpayers' money to implement a solution for them and how physically disabled people take up so much more space and time to board a bus. If we want to talk fairness, we got to consider fairness for EVERYTHING!

My point isn't meant to attack those in needs of accessibility. It totally unfortunate to be disabled. If we can implement a solution for them too, that would be great but if that cannot be done at a reasonable cost, everyone else shouldn't have to suffer.

As for privacy reason, I said this before. They could implement an option that would allow the user to disable or enable displaying their balance OR PAY CASH. They aren't forced to use presto. Pay cash if they don't want the world tracking them through a presto card. In the future, they will be able to buy a stack of limited use paper presto cards too.

[nfitz]

Or just get the Presto App on your phone, tap your card, and see your balance ...

[MK78]

2 hours ago, smallspy said:

The station readers and the self-reloading machines all have the ability to have headphones plugged into them, allowing both visually-impaired and hearing-impaired people the same and equal access to their use as non-impaired people.

The current bus and streetcar readers do not have that ability, and thus are the problem. The faregates completely bypass the issue as they don't have readouts at all.

Seriously you expect a visually impaired person to be looking to plug in a headphone jack everytime they board the bus or streetcar? The fare vending machines are not onboard a moving vehicle and the person can take their time.

Who said forget elevators? Jeez. Of course those are necessary. So are all the other accessibility improvements the TTC has made. I guess some of these people don't remember the TTC of only 15-20 years ago.

There are ways to ensure that you have enough funds on a Presto card. If people refuse to use those methods, what can you do?

 

[Xtrazsteve]

1 hour ago, nfitz said:

Or just get the Presto App on your phone, tap your card, and see your balance ...

This seems like the only immediate solution to seeing your balance but requires a phone with a data plan which not everyone can afford.

Of course it can't really be used to prove that you have money on your card as someone can clone the application to make it appear visually identical with a balance to fool the operator. It won't solve that problem if the presto reader glitches.

[Kelvin3157]

4 hours ago, nfitz said:

Or just get the Presto App on your phone, tap your card, and see your balance ...

It takes at least 24 hours to update the new balance.

[Gil]

Would installing the yellow balance checkers throughout the TTC (or even at heavily used stops) be a solution?  Between the yellow readers and the various self-serve machines at GO stations I can easily check my balance without having to go to the ticket window and ask (which is another solution).  Most transit terminals in the GTA have at least one balance checker (which not only tells you how much money you have left on your card, but also how much time is left on your transfer) with varying designs.  VIVA has them built into the fare payment station.  Miway and I believe Brampton Transit have them as standalone readers.  Put at least two in each subway station, one inside the fare-paid area and one outside.  Again, the self-serve PRESTO machines to load your card can also tell you your balance (but probably not how much time is left on your transfer).

[Xtrazsteve]

40 minutes ago, Kelvin3157 said:

It takes at least 24 hours to update the new balance.

The physical balance is on the card. What you see online is the server balance which is updated from the device that you last tapped on.

I haven't used the app so I can't say anything about it. If the app is able to decrypt the balance from the card, it would be able to display the balance. The problem is security and how they would implement it so it can display the balance but not make it hackable.

[Kelvin3157]

12 minutes ago, Xtrazsteve said:

The physical balance is on the card. What you see online is the server balance which is updated from the device that you last tapped on.

 I haven't used the app so I can't say anything about it. If the app is able to decrypt the balance from the card, it would be able to display the balance. The problem is security and how they would implement it so it can display the balance but not make it hackable.

The app just acts like the website; it isn't updated right away. I've tapped at a station before, but it hasn't shown in my transactions until the next day. And yes, I do know the physical balance is on the card.

[nfitz]

9 hours ago, Kelvin3157 said:

The app just acts like the website; it isn't updated right away. I've tapped at a station before, but it hasn't shown in my transactions until the next day. And yes, I do know the physical balance is on the card.

It does that ... but also hidden on the last page is "Query Card".  It then tells you to put the card under the phone, make sure NFC is on, and it reads your card. I've tested it second after tapping, and it shows that transaction on the app.

I just did it now, and It reads the two taps I did an hour or so ago ... which aren't showing on the Presto website yet.

[smallspy]

13 hours ago, MK78 said:

Seriously you expect a visually impaired person to be looking to plug in a headphone jack everytime they board the bus or streetcar? The fare vending machines are not onboard a moving vehicle and the person can take their time.

Please indicate to me where in any of my posts that I had suggested doing that.

 

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Who said forget elevators? Jeez. Of course those are necessary. So are all the other accessibility improvements the TTC has made. I guess some of these people don't remember the TTC of only 15-20 years ago.

Are you daft? I'm pointing it out as a method of comparison. No one in their right mind would suggest that the elevators are unnecessary.

 

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There are ways to ensure that you have enough funds on a Presto card. If people refuse to use those methods, what can you do?

Unfortunately, it's not that easy. Not everyone has a smartphone, and not everyone has regular access to a computer.

 

To be honest, the easiest and quickest way that the TTC could help resolve a lot of these issues would likely be to put balance reader machines in every subway station away from the fare line. Doing so should in theory allow for the slightest bit of privacy to help ease the fears of those worried about who's reading their balance, and would allow the vision- and hearing-impaired the ability to see their balances as well.

 

10 hours ago, Kelvin3157 said:

It takes at least 24 hours to update the new balance.

No, it doesn't.

 

It takes UP TO 24 hours to update the balance, and usually that information is available far earlier than that.

 

Dan

[Kelvin3157]

11 minutes ago, smallspy said:

It takes UP TO 24 hours to update the balance, and usually that information is available far earlier than that.

That's what I meant. Just misworded

[MK78]

9 minutes ago, smallspy said:

To be honest, the easiest and quickest way that the TTC could help resolve a lot of these issues would likely be to put balance reader machines in every subway station away from the fare line. Doing so should in theory allow for the slightest bit of privacy to help ease the fears of those worried about who's reading their balance, and would allow the vision- and hearing-impaired the ability to see their balances as well.

It still wont solve the issue in the bus/streetcars - that's where the issue of not having enough fare on your card is the issue, because you're not at a station where you can reload.

The stations already have the vending machines, don't they? They have the headphone jack. Anyone going in can check their balance.

[nfitz]

17 minutes ago, smallspy said:

It takes UP TO 24 hours to update the balance, and usually that information is available far earlier than that.

Generally TTC is closer to 4 hours, from what I've seen. But some (most?) other systems seem to only upload when the vehicle returns to the garage at night.

[smallspy]

3 hours ago, MK78 said:

It still wont solve the issue in the bus/streetcars - that's where the issue of not having enough fare on your card is the issue, because you're not at a station where you can reload.

While you are right on that, a vast majority of riders on the system do go through a station during their travels. Putting a balance reader (or three) in each station would give people another location to easily do it.

 

3 hours ago, MK78 said:

The stations already have the vending machines, don't they? They have the headphone jack. Anyone going in can check their balance.

If it was that easy, do you think that we'd be having this discussion?

Dan

[MK78]

I still don't understand what the privacy nuts are harping about just displaying the balance on a reader. It's not like it's announcing to the world "John Smith has $13.25 on his Presto" while "Jane Doe has -$0.75 on her Presto".

It seems people just love to whine about everything nowadays.

[Ed T.]

5 hours ago, MK78 said:

The stations already have the vending machines, don't they? They have the headphone jack. Anyone going in can check their balance.

I looked at a fare vending machine. It is not at all obvious how to simply check your balance, never mind do it quickly. I decided not to bother trying to figure it out, assuming it's possible at all (without going through the motions of actually inserting a bank card as well).

The balance checkers on GO are a model of simplicity and usability in comparison.

[smallspy]

2 hours ago, MK78 said:

I still don't understand what the privacy nuts are harping about just displaying the balance on a reader. It's not like it's announcing to the world "John Smith has $13.25 on his Presto" while "Jane Doe has -$0.75 on her Presto".

It seems people just love to whine about everything nowadays.

You can complain all you want, but it is the TTC's legal department that is the one that suggested the changes. And if erring on the side of caution results in them avoiding any potential lawsuits - the defense of which, I might remind you, would have to be funded and paid out of both fares and our property taxes - than you know what, I can't honestly say that I blame them.

 

There is a new board with the new council - maybe bring it up with them.

 

Dan

[Someguy3071]

3 hours ago, MK78 said:

I still don't understand what the privacy nuts are harping about just displaying the balance on a reader. It's not like it's announcing to the world "John Smith has $13.25 on his Presto" while "Jane Doe has -$0.75 on her Presto".

It seems people just love to whine about everything nowadays.

That's exactly what they would have to do to make this feature usable for visually impaired. We already talked about this a few posts up. 

[MK78]

6 minutes ago, Someguy3071 said:

That's exactly what they would have to do to make this feature usable for visually impaired. We already talked about this a few posts up. 

Yeah but they wouldn't be saying the name on the account, would they? All a voice would have to say is "X.XX dollars of funds remaining". I wouldn't see this as a privacy issue. And hopefully they would only make this opt-in for passengers with visual impairments, not every Tom, Dick & Harriet. The operators would probably go nuts listening to that stuff all day.

[Someguy3071]

1 hour ago, MK78 said:

Yeah but they wouldn't be saying the name on the account, would they? All a voice would have to say is "X.XX dollars of funds remaining". I wouldn't see this as a privacy issue. And hopefully they would only make this opt-in for passengers with visual impairments, not every Tom, Dick & Harriet. The operators would probably go nuts listening to that stuff all day.

Would you want it announced how much money is in your wallet? Who's to say someone can't hang out by the presto reader and listen to target people with high balances on their cards. 

[nfitz]

10 hours ago, smallspy said:

While you are right on that, a vast majority of riders on the system do go through a station during their travels. P

Do they? On a trip basis, TTC has about 1.7 million trips a day (https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Operating_Statistics/2017/section_one.jsp) while the new 2018 count (http://www.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_Planning/Subway ridership - 2018.pdf - thanks to Ossington) has about 800 thousand on Line 1 and 525 thousand on Line 2. Not even sure that's a majority by the time you account for all those transferring between Line 1 and Line 2. Maybe it's a plurality - I don't think it's a vast majority (my first cut at this was very wrong - wasn't thinking ...)

 

8 hours ago, Ed T. said:

I looked at a fare vending machine. It is not at all obvious how to simply check your balance, never mind do it quickly. I decided not to bother trying to figure it out, assuming it's possible at all (without going through the motions of actually inserting a bank card as well).

As far as I recall, when you drop you card in, the first thing it does, before you even select an option, is shows you your balance. What is there to figure out? Or has the action changed ... I'll have to try again next time I'm in the station (though most of my trips don't involve a subway station.

[Gil]

52 minutes ago, nfitz said:

Do they? On a trip basis, TTC has about 1.7 million trips a day while Line 1 only has 205,000 trips per day and Line 2 only has 187,000 trips a day according to https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Operating_Statistics/2017/section_one.jsp  And I'd assume many of those 392,000 Line 1 and 2 riders take both lines.

Surely the majority of riders aren't using a station - even accounting for those that might get to one, but not ride Line 1 or 2.

 

 

As far as I recall, when you drop you card in, the first thing it does, before you even select an option, is shows you your balance. What is there to figure out? Or has the action changed ... I'll have to try again next time I'm in the station (though most of my trips don't involve a subway station.

Short of putting balance readers at major transfer points, adding other places to check balances like Shoppers Drug Mart or as is done in 905, community facilities like libraries and community centres which would all be done in person.  I can certainly believe that there are trips that don’t involve the subway.  Trips between and within suburbs or trips traversing downtown or trips heading out into 905 definitely add up.

 

The short narrow PRESTO machines will give you your balance when you put your card in.  The newer, taller, wider PRESTO vending machines take a few more steps to get to your balance.  I haven’t checked, but I doubt neither will give you a time balance for your 2-hour travel window.

[Wayside Observer]

28 minutes ago, Gil said:

The short narrow PRESTO machines will give you your balance when you put your card in.  The newer, taller, wider PRESTO vending machines take a few more steps to get to your balance.  I haven’t checked, but I doubt neither will give you a time balance for your 2-hour travel window.

By short narrow Presto machines, do you mean the yellow balance checkers?  Those display the time left.