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St. Clair ROW


R. Flores
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It's a pretty epic telesmash, and does not look that bad when you stand there. That said, it definately shouldn't look like that and someone did mess up there.

There will be no derailments, and it's not unsafe, so you don't have to hide under your rock.

Dan

Indeed, you think the engineers are that stupid? I'm insulted. Granted, I have some issues with it, but the streetcars are not going to derail and they are not going to throw passengers from side to side. Instead, think about this: Why are so many concessions being made for the cars? Is this not supposed to represent the City of Toronto taking a sustainable stance on a transportation perspective? If so, why is the ROW being shifted back and fourth to make sure cars have their two lanes of traffic and left turn lanes? Many of these issues are not design issues, but rather policy and political issues, something which is out of hand of the designers.

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What disturbs me is how people were quick to slam the TTC, and use it as an excuse to slame TC. If Steve Munro hadn't taken the time to investigate the Row himself, people would be declaring a witch-hunt. Some people really need to step back from this hobby.

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Upon looking at the pictures that Steve Munro posted of St. Clair. I have to say that it just makes St. Clair look horrid. The barrage of centre poles, traffic lights, and all the other tacky looking "street furniture".. It makes the street just look.. Well, it looks like crap. Yet, Spadina has kept its charm, and even with the added piece of PROW infrastructure down there, it just looks right. I just don't understand what went so terribly wrong in the planning of St. Clair. I had envisioned this grand avenue, much like Spadina has become with the ROW, but they butchered it to the beyond!! Clicky this picture, and you'll see what I mean... Sorry, I just wanted to get that rant out :rolleyes:

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Upon looking at the pictures that Steve Munro posted of St. Clair. I have to say that it just makes St. Clair look horrid. The barrage of centre poles, traffic lights, and all the other tacky looking "street furniture".. It makes the street just look.. Well, it looks like crap. Yet, Spadina has kept its charm, and even with the added piece of PROW infrastructure down there, it just looks right. I just don't understand what went so terribly wrong in the planning of St. Clair. I had envisioned this grand avenue, much like Spadina has become with the ROW, but they butchered it to the beyond!! Clicky this picture, and you'll see what I mean... Sorry, I just wanted to get that rant out :rolleyes:

It probably looks tacky because the pic is from the centre of the street, so the mixture of fat centre poles plus the ones hanging in from the sides makes it look extra cluttered. The point about not being grand, well, its not really possible with dark grey poles. Spadina has deep green, which looks nice, and no centre poles either. Also, St.Clair is not as wide, making it seem cluttered up, not being as open.

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Upon looking at the pictures that Steve Munro posted of St. Clair. I have to say that it just makes St. Clair look horrid. The barrage of centre poles, traffic lights, and all the other tacky looking "street furniture".. It makes the street just look.. Well, it looks like crap. Yet, Spadina has kept its charm, and even with the added piece of PROW infrastructure down there, it just looks right. I just don't understand what went so terribly wrong in the planning of St. Clair. I had envisioned this grand avenue, much like Spadina has become with the ROW, but they butchered it to the beyond!! Clicky this picture, and you'll see what I mean... Sorry, I just wanted to get that rant out :rolleyes:

Have to agree for the most part, except St. Clair was never the grand avenue Spadina was and is and this ROW sure as hell was'nt going to improve the existing scenery or the TTC service by the looks of it. If anything, with all the added clutter overhead and on the ground it just amplifies it even more. You can dress up a pig anyway you want, in the end it's still a pig. Was it all worth it? Not even close.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just got back from riding the first PCC. Steve Munro, Carolun Bennet, Mike Filey were on the car. The ride along the ROW was fairly smooth, and while you can clearly see the track is not straight in some sections, it did not affect the speed, or ride quality at all.

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I was off from work did anybody go on 512 today any russell cars up there lol its only 7 cars for sunday service.

Brad

I was there for a brief period of time... There were 3 cars in between Oakwood and Lansdowne when I was there at around 6:40 PM. I rode the bus from Keele to Oakwood. Hordes of people were waiting at the Oakwood stop, but 4146 was coming at around Dufferin. 4146 was the only one that I remember, as it almost hit my bus turning onto Lansdowne. As for Russell cars, I don't know which are Roncy cars and which are Russell cars.

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I was off from work did anybody go on 512 today any russell cars up there lol its only 7 cars for sunday service.

Brad

What numbers as I was there and did some shooting as well take a few rides. 4190, 4150, 4146, 41?2 were some # I saw.

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I was there for a brief period of time... There were 3 cars in between Oakwood and Lansdowne when I was there at around 6:40 PM. I rode the bus from Keele to Oakwood. Hordes of people were waiting at the Oakwood stop, but 4146 was coming at around Dufferin. 4146 was the only one that I remember, as it almost hit my bus turning onto Lansdowne. As for Russell cars, I don't know which are Roncy cars and which are Russell cars.

Russell cars are 4000-4140 Ronces cars 4141-4251. I was just asking because the st clair cars were running into ronces saturday night and sunday morning they were leaving the yard from now on and tomorrow monday 18 cars for 512.

Brad

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Here are some video's I shot of the PCC's using the new St Clair ROW for the first time on Dec 19-09.

The rear doors of both cars were broken and could no be use causing all kinds of delays as well doing less runs as plan.

Everyone was thrill to see them up here and both of them were at crush load for the 5 hours they were out.

4500 is First car to arrive at Lansdowne with riders in 3 years.
4549 arrives at Northcliffe
4549 at Atlas
4500 at Northcliffe
4549 first ride from St Clair W station to Oakwood
4549 ride Oakwood to Lansdowne
4549 ride Lansdowne to Oakwood
4549 ride Oakwood to Bathurst
4500 at Atlas
CLRV's action at Lansdowne Loop Sunday Dec 20 first day of regular service
Ride on CLRV from Lansdowne to Bathurst
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There 18 cars in the am rush then 8 car run in by 11am. For the pm rush 4 cars go out which put only 14 on 512 in the pm rush. All the drivers are hateing it because there not getting enough time to do a trip. On my end we been doing good making sure all 18 cars i put on 512 are ronces cars but the day despatcher puts russell cars out for pm rush.

Brad

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There 18 cars in the am rush then 8 car run in by 11am. For the pm rush 4 cars go out which put only 14 on 512 in the pm rush. All the drivers are hateing it because there not getting enough time to do a trip. On my end we been doing good making sure all 18 cars i put on 512 are ronces cars but the day despatcher puts russell cars out for pm rush.

Brad

I rode 512 from St Clair Station to Keele today (Tuesday) around 5:30-6:20pm. There was big gap in service on my ride. As we left St Clair Station 2-3 streetcars pulled in. The rest of the way to St Clair West Station no streetcars passed us going east. There was also a gap bus, 7809, in service in front of us. When we reached St Clair West 7809 was turned back to go to Yonge St again. At St Clair West there was a huge line up for westbound 512s, it stretched as far back as the collector booth. 4189 passed us at Bathurst, it ended up being short turned at St Clair West Station as it arrived at Lansdowne 2 streetcars behind the one I was on. The rest of the way from Bathurst to Lansdowne streetcars seemed to be spaced out pretty evenly except for one group of 3 streetcars at Arlington.

Anyone know how they are going to deal with Old Weston & St Clair? Right now southbound 41s are detouring using Rogers-Weston to avoid the right turn there as there is not enough space to make the turn. I really hope this doesn't become a permanent routing for 41. I'm thinking that maybe they'll work on it while they are modifying Lansdowne & St Clair to return 47B/C to their regular routing.

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Rode 512 west from St. Clair West around 12 noon. Supervisor pulled an extra car in from passing lane to satisfy the waiting crowd of 25 riders.

Is certainly a smooth, quick ride. The buses are running Oakwod to either Old Weston or Keele in heavy traffic. Difficult transfer westbound at Lansdowne as riders have to cross from SW corner to NE corner to catch the bus.

For old-timers there are a number of 2700-class GMs on the line today including 2736 and 2832.

I rode 4174 westbound and 4152 eastbound. Both directions getting standing loads for a part of the trip.

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Anyone know how they are going to deal with Old Weston & St Clair? Right now southbound 41s are detouring using Rogers-Weston to avoid the right turn there as there is not enough space to make the turn. I really hope this doesn't become a permanent routing for 41. I'm thinking that maybe they'll work on it while they are modifying Lansdowne & St Clair to return 47B/C to their regular routing.

The plan that I had seen a while back was that there was going to be a diagonal cut-out (of sorts) in the sidewalk on the northwest corner of Old Weston and St. Clair, to allow wide-turning vehicles a bit more room. This was also supposed to be the case at the southeast corner of Keele and St. Clair.

I have no idea if that plan is still current.

Dan

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Some trucks parked on the lane right next to the ROW's curvy section exposed some of their protruding overhangs which caused clearance concerns prompting the drivers to inch by. Overall quite a smooth ride, and the curves aren't too noticeable unless the streetcar driver decides to go a bit faster, then if standing, you can feel the change in direction.

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The plan that I had seen a while back was that there was going to be a diagonal cut-out (of sorts) in the sidewalk on the northwest corner of Old Weston and St. Clair, to allow wide-turning vehicles a bit more room. This was also supposed to be the case at the southeast corner of Keele and St. Clair.

I have no idea if that plan is still current.

Dan

That will not help as it is too tight now.

Again you are removing space for pedestrians. One reason Dufferin St corners were rebuilt as there was no room for pedestrians.

As it stands now, tire marks can be seen on the sidewalk up to 2' from the curb and this was before the platform was built.

One option is to rebuilt the platform further to the west.

The 2nd option is to remove the left turn going westbound and put the stop there. Traffic would have to use the straight through lane to make a turn.

3rd option, move 41 to Weston period.

The 168 southbound stop is now a block north and you have to go to the loop to get the 127. All this in the name of traffic.

The 4th option which I would opposed, is to removed the building and push the sidewalk to the north as well in front of the hydro building.

The 5th option is to take 41 down to Junction Rd, but that cannot happen until the grade separation is built. Then you still have to deal with CP trains.

Edit:

Option 3 is the way to go and have said that to TTC some months ago.

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Anyone know how they are going to deal with Old Weston & St Clair? Right now southbound 41s are detouring using Rogers-Weston to avoid the right turn there as there is not enough space to make the turn. I really hope this doesn't become a permanent routing for 41. I'm thinking that maybe they'll work on it while they are modifying Lansdowne & St Clair to return 47B/C to their regular routing.

All the MD drivers I have spoken to don't want to use that turn anymore, it's just too dangerous and they are right. They prefer the routing Rogers-Weston and are pushing to get it implemented. Same with the NB 47B/C. Many moons ago that actually used to be the old routing for 47B/C, NB and SB until they combined the two. Hey, they did'nt ask for the idiotic 90 degree turns with poles/obstacles at the corners, and apparently neither did the genius designers ask the transportation people when they designed this thing. Don't hold your breath waiting for them to modify Caledonia and St. Clair although I agree the SB turn at Lansdowne and St. Clair isn't much better.

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That will not help as it is too tight now.

Again you are removing space for pedestrians. One reason Dufferin St corners were rebuilt as there was no room for pedestrians.

As it stands now, tire marks can be seen on the sidewalk up to 2' from the curb and this was before the platform was built.

One option is to rebuilt the platform further to the west.

The 2nd option is to remove the left turn going westbound and put the stop there. Traffic would have to use the straight through lane to make a turn.

3rd option, move 41 to Weston period.

The 168 southbound stop is now a block north and you have to go to the loop to get the 127. All this in the name of traffic.

The 4th option which I would opposed, is to removed the building and push the sidewalk to the north as well in front of the hydro building.

The 5th option is to take 41 down to Junction Rd, but that cannot happen until the grade separation is built. Then you still have to deal with CP trains.

Edit:

Option 3 is the way to go and have said that to TTC some months ago.

I was taking a better look at the Old Weston and St Clair intersection this afternoon while waiting for the 512 shuttle. It seems like if 41 drivers pull their buses to the left first as they pull away from the southbound Old Weston at St Clair stop they might have enough space to make a right turn into the ROW, similar to what 7B was doing at Bathurst. They could either then either stay in the ROW and have a special left turn transit signal at Keele/Weston or they can merge back into mixed traffic at the CN underpass, that is if they make it like the one at Caledonia.

Next time I'm at the intersection I'll have to check out how much cars actually make a left turn (westbound to southbound) there to see how it would effect traffic if the 2nd option was done. With the 3rd option, I would agree that Old Weston wouldn't suffer from reduced service as there are few major stops along it except for St Clair where I've seen many people wait for the 41 there. By rerouting 41 you would be making all those people have to make an extra transfer, especially on weekends when the flea market is open. One problem with the 5th option is reduced service between Juncton and St Clair on Keele which is where all the big box stores are.

All the MD drivers I have spoken to don't want to use that turn anymore, it's just too dangerous and they are right. They prefer the routing Rogers-Weston and are pushing to get it implemented. Same with the NB 47B/C. Many moons ago that actually used to be the old routing for 47B/C, NB and SB until they combined the two. Hey, they did'nt ask for the idiotic 90 degree turns with poles/obstacles at the corners, and apparently neither did the genius designers ask the transportation people when they designed this thing. Don't hold your breath waiting for them to modify Caledonia and St. Clair although I agree the SB turn at Lansdowne and St. Clair isn't much better.

Yeah, I've looked at older maps before with 18 Calidonia on them. I guess one benefit though of the 47B/C using Calidonia Park is avoiding the Lansdowne Ave hill north of Davenport during the winter which causes problems, mainly at the curve at the top of it.

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Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that the stop announcement triggers are still positioned for the bus route; the next stop will be announced approaching a farside stop. So stopping at the Northcliffe platform (farside) will trigger the announcement for Dufferin. This is for streetcars. The TTC should fix this as some people were confused.

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