Express691 Posted October 28, 2022 Report Share Posted October 28, 2022 The Regional District threw a curveball this morning, announcing $400.6m set aside for 188 40' trolleybuses. http://www.metrovancouver.org/boards/GVRD/RD_2022-Oct-28_AGE.pdf This is a 3-year change as they were initially supposed to start procurement for a 2027 delivery. It is also a 1 for 1 replacement. 188 E40LFRs, replaced by 188 (XT40s, there's no reason anyone else is bidding for this order) More to come... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96 Blader Line Posted October 28, 2022 Report Share Posted October 28, 2022 So trolleys replacement moved to 2024 I'm wondering if we would have enough trollies for expansion and post broadway extension. Idk if the 9 is staying as diesel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Posted October 29, 2022 Report Share Posted October 29, 2022 CMBC is tentatively (not final yet) going to borrow a demo unit in mid 2023, I'm assuming a Seattle XT40. The first pilot trolley is expected to arrive in 2025 with production units starting in late 2026 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Express691 Posted October 29, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2022 10 minutes ago, Phillip said: CMBC is tentatively (not final yet) going to borrow a demo unit in mid 2023, I'm assuming s Seattle XT40. The first pilot trolley is expected to arrive in 2025 with production units starting in late 2026 Looks like it's a 1 year discrepancy between you (guys) and what TransLink says in the report, but what gives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Posted October 29, 2022 Report Share Posted October 29, 2022 13 hours ago, Express691 said: Looks like it's a 1 year discrepancy between you (guys) and what TransLink says in the report, but what gives Interesting, They recently had a survey asking the operators what features they would like to see in the new trolleys. It had timelines and that's what it mentioned 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9924 Posted October 29, 2022 Report Share Posted October 29, 2022 22 hours ago, Express691 said: announcing $400.6B That is, unless, of course you pay me, four hundred BILLION dollars! ($400.6 million, not billion ) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Marriott Posted October 29, 2022 Report Share Posted October 29, 2022 The trolley replacement isn't being moved up. The project information says the new buses will be delivered from 2024 to 2027. Given that the trolleys are a unique vehicle, there isn't an "off the shelf" model for Translink to order, so procurement will take longer than a comparable order of diesels, CNG's or Battery buses. As well, the document states that the funding requests are made 1 to 2 years before being implemented. Keep in mind the timeline for the current LFR trolley fleet. 2003: RFP issued 2004: Order confirmed with New Flyer 2005: Prototype 2101 arrives 2006: First production units arrive There will likely be a similar timeline for the new order, bringing a Seattle XT40 up next year will help inform the new specs. So, if the project is approved to go forward, next year would see the specs for the fleet determined with a RFP issued. Given the lead time for that, a contract would not be signed until late 2023 or more likely sometime in 2024. Then the prototype would not arrive for a while after that, and would have extensive testing before regular production units started arriving. Basically, I expect the timeline given to employees is accurate, and would not expect the production units to show up until 2026. While XT40's are a likely vehicle, it is not 100% guaranteed, after all Neoplan bid on the last trolley order too. So who knows, maybe Gillig, having given Dayton a new trolley fleet, will bid on this order. Or Nova may deem it worthwhile to pursue. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2102 Posted October 29, 2022 Report Share Posted October 29, 2022 6 hours ago, Michael Marriott said: The trolley replacement isn't being moved up. The project information says the new buses will be delivered from 2024 to 2027. Given that the trolleys are a unique vehicle, there isn't an "off the shelf" model for Translink to order, so procurement will take longer than a comparable order of diesels, CNG's or Battery buses. As well, the document states that the funding requests are made 1 to 2 years before being implemented. Keep in mind the timeline for the current LFR trolley fleet. 2003: RFP issued 2004: Order confirmed with New Flyer 2005: Prototype 2101 arrives 2006: First production units arrive There will likely be a similar timeline for the new order, bringing a Seattle XT40 up next year will help inform the new specs. So, if the project is approved to go forward, next year would see the specs for the fleet determined with a RFP issued. Given the lead time for that, a contract would not be signed until late 2023 or more likely sometime in 2024. Then the prototype would not arrive for a while after that, and would have extensive testing before regular production units started arriving. Basically, I expect the timeline given to employees is accurate, and would not expect the production units to show up until 2026. While XT40's are a likely vehicle, it is not 100% guaranteed, after all Neoplan bid on the last trolley order too. So who knows, maybe Gillig, having given Dayton a new trolley fleet, will bid on this order. Or Nova may deem it worthwhile to pursue. I hope to be long in my grave before Nova does a trolleybus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Express691 Posted October 29, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2022 More notes found in the document ============================================ Page 150 Quote This next generation of Trolley Bus is in-motion charging (IMC) capable, with a published maximum range of 35km, allowing Trolley Buses to operate away from the overhead network. IMC capability allows trolleys to work around disruptions and reroutes without the need to maintain a diesel backup fleet. Page 151 Quote IMC will allow CMBC to discontinue the need to maintain a diesel back-up fleet to support service during reroutes, construction, and other events that would normally require trolleys to deviate from the overhead network. IMC equipped trolley buses are also capable of being automatically de-wired and re-wired, significantly reducing the need to deploy pole pullers, reducing risk to operators and improving system efficiency. The new IMC-equipped trolley buses also have the potential to expand system coverage using zeroemissions technology without the requirement to expand the overhead network. They have the potential to further accelerate the elimination of diesel buses and contribute to TransLink’s goal of 45% reduction of fleet and facilities GHG emissions by 2030. The full potential of this is currently being explored by TransLink. Also on page 151 Quote Due to limited demand in North America, manufacturers of Trolley Buses cannot reach the economies of scale in production. Therefore, the cost per bus for trolleys is higher than CNG or other propulsion technologies. This is offset by the benefits of long life expectancy, zero tailpipe GHG emissions and air pollutants and reduced bus maintenance. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UprisingCanadian Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 Could we see CMBC trialing a trolley from Europe, like with what KCM did with that Renault in the 80s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Express691 Posted November 1, 2022 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2022 6 hours ago, UprisingCanadian said: Could we see CMBC trialing a trolley from Europe, like with what KCM did with that Renault in the 80s? Not a very good supply network here in North America - maybe for electrical components (Skoda) but for the frame and other EU-specific parts that don't have much draw here in NA, not really a chance there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac Write Posted November 6, 2022 Report Share Posted November 6, 2022 CMBC needs to get Angus Mclntyre to be in charge of spacing out the new trolley's with over 40 years on Trolleys and 3 different trolley buses, he is the most qualified. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captaintrolley Posted November 6, 2022 Report Share Posted November 6, 2022 7 hours ago, Mac Write said: CMBC needs to get Angus Mclntyre to be in charge of spacing out the new trolley's with over 40 years on Trolleys and 3 different trolley buses, he is the most qualified. 'Tis nice to dream, but CMBC will be just fine, let Angus enjoy his well deserved retirement. CMBC has several qualified employees that will actually do just as well and even get paid for their expertise. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin607 Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 On 10/28/2022 at 11:59 PM, 96 Blader Line said: So trolleys replacement moved to 2024 I'm wondering if we would have enough trollies for expansion and post broadway extension. Idk if the 9 is staying as diesel. AFAIK the 9 will return to trolleybus operation once Broadway is clear for them. Whether it will be tied to the subway opening date or could start earlier if the road restoration is completed earlier. My source was the people at trolley overhead. they have a budget for the work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin607 Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 I recently saw an online presentation from SF Muni management, which contained information that will probably be relevant to this procurement. The first thing is that all the remaining N.A. trolleybus operators (i.e. except Boston) have formed a group that hold monthly meetings. This must be good thing to help share new ideas, best practice etc. Secondly, Muni are going to procure 4 trolleybuses equipped with the new extended range batteries. Two will be existing XT60s dating from 2015, which are due to for a mid-life refit anyway. The other two will be XT40s but I'm not sure whether these will also be refits or brand new. Either way, the experience of extended range with In Motion charging can be shared with other agencies, though I suspect it will be a matter of visit(s) by CMBC engineers, operations even some drivers to San Francisco. If NFI will produce new XT40s for this trial at Muni, I wonder if they will build an extra one to be Translink's demonstrator/pilot bus. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madog222 Posted Saturday at 06:16 PM Report Share Posted Saturday at 06:16 PM From the Metro Vancouver February '23 AGM; total cost is budgeted at $414 million. That's 2.2 million per trolley, about twice the cost of the LFSe+ order. From page 220 onwards: http://www.metrovancouver.org/boards/GVRD/RD_2023-Feb-24_AGE.pdf?utm_source=north shore news&utm_campaign=north shore news%3A outbound&utm_medium=referral Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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