2023 (+ later options) Battery Electric Bus Procurement

[Express691]

This comes out of the October 2020 Mayor's Council board meeting report:

The initial order is for 57 battery-electric units for PCT along with charging infrastructure.
The plan also calls for 57 diesel buses to be retired.

It is unknown yet if the buses are to come from Nova or New Flyer but judging from lack of support network for BYD/Proterra this is likely the case.

Also to note:
-The current pilot involves three cities and 22 buses and is looking to expand to a phase 2 by 2022 . Not sure if whether or not these units are part of this expansion to phase 2.
-Federal funding was announced during the global health crisis 
-Aside from 701/791/N9/160, the majority of conventional routes in Port Coquitlam TC are short.
-TransLink has cited that Marpole TC will be delayed beyond the end of 2023 and has chosen to pursue the "Agressive" LCFS option. 
    -Some have pointed out that this is a lot being invested for not much service.
-Future bus orders beyond 2023 will not involve diesel.
    -The 25 deckers being ordered will likely be diesel. That said...
-The next fleet expansion will be pushed back to 2022.

Personally I'm more interested in listening to the politics behind this decision as opposed to what CNG buses will be replacing the D40LFR at STC

[Translink69]

2 hours ago, Express691 said:

This comes out of the October 2020 Mayor's Council board meeting report:

The initial order is for 57 battery-electric units for PCT along with charging infrastructure.
The plan also calls for 57 diesel buses to be retired.

It is unknown yet if the buses are to come from Nova or New Flyer but judging from lack of support network for BYD/Proterra this is likely the case.

Also to note:
-The current pilot involves three cities and 22 buses and is looking to expand to a phase 2 by 2022 . Not sure if whether or not these units are part of this expansion to phase 2.
-Federal funding was announced during the global health crisis 
-Aside from 701/791/N9/160, the majority of conventional routes in Port Coquitlam TC are short.
-TransLink has cited that Marpole TC will be delayed beyond the end of 2023 and has chosen to pursue the "Agressive" LCFS option. 
    -Some have pointed out that this is a lot being invested for not much service.
-Future bus orders beyond 2023 will not involve diesel.
    -The 25 deckers being ordered will likely be diesel. That said...
-The next fleet expansion will be pushed back to 2022.

Personally I'm more interested in listening to the politics behind this decision as opposed to what CNG buses will be replacing the D40LFR at STC

Really was hoping they’d be long range, but looks like they’re short range BEB’s...

Marpole TC seems rather unnecessary but if we can’t find a location on the NS, I understand the need for it. 
 

No more diesel buses past 2023? I’m assuming that doesn’t include hybrids, but afaik translink/cmbc have stated recently that suburban orders will continue to be diesel. 
Also, does that mean WV will start getting hybrids, or do they plan on transferring more of the XD40s and then replacing the depot with a new one in the future capable of hybrids or BEB’s?

Im aware that CNG is now the cheapest option, but diesel is universal in our system, and doesn’t cost much more (~$450k). BEB’s cost over $1m per unit if I’m not mistaken. I’m aware there are grants and subsidies, but how much of the total cost do they cover? (And that’s excluding the charging infrastructure)

You could run the most inefficient, polluting 2 stroke engine you can get your hands on, but if it’s transporting dozens of people who’d otherwise be taking cars, it’s still a net positive in term of the environment factor.

I don’t want to come off as someone who completely opposes electric buses, because I am not, but considering the extra cost and infrastructure required, not to mention all the requirements on the maintenance side, is it really the best use of money during a period in which a priority is spending money wisely?

[M. Parsons]

13 hours ago, Express691 said:

It is unknown yet if the buses are to come from Nova or New Flyer but judging from lack of support network for BYD/Proterra this is likely the case.

What's your source on the lack of a support network for BYD or Proterra (ok, BYD is somewhat proven)? Unattributed postings on Facebook don't count. Ultimately, it's not the size of the network, but, the ability of the network to supply those parts.

Fun fact: Proterra's California facility is actually closer to Vancouver than NFI's Winnipeg parts location by 800km (although yes, apparently there is an Edmonton location). 

What makes you think the electric specific support from Nova Bus or New Flyer is equivalent to diesel support?

The TTC will probably provide the best information ultimately. ETS, possibly but with only Proterra there is less to compare them to.

If I'm reading this right, charging infrastructure will only be at the garage? How could this factor into bus procurement?

[9924]

13 hours ago, Translink69 said:

You could run the most inefficient, polluting 2 stroke engine you can get your hands on, but if it’s transporting dozens of people who’d otherwise be taking cars, it’s still a net positive in term of the environment factor.

I don’t want to come off as someone who completely opposes electric buses, because I am not, but considering the extra cost and infrastructure required, not to mention all the requirements on the maintenance side, is it really the best use of money during a period in which a priority is spending money wisely?

It's all about public image and being "green", even though the "greener" option may cost more, it'll be easier to get Government funding to combat climate "change".

[8010]

21 hours ago, Express691 said:

-The next fleet expansion will be pushed back to 2022.

So basically some of the new buses coming next year as replacements will probably be temporary expansion units until the actual fleet expansion arrives the following year.

[translink]

48 minutes ago, 8010 said:

So basically some of the new buses coming next year as replacements will probably be temporary expansion units until the actual fleet expansion arrives the following year.

Unfortunately that’s not how that works. Anything that was ordered for 2021, will not be delivered until 2022. AFAIK, manufactures like New Flyer and NovaBus will adjust their build schedule based on transit agency needs. 

[martin607]

On 10/25/2020 at 6:42 AM, M. Parsons said:

If I'm reading this right, charging infrastructure will only be at the garage? How could this factor into bus procurement?

The LCFS envisages a mixture. VTC, the forthcoming Marpole TC and Burnaby TC would operate garage charged buses while other transit centres would use in-route charging. 

Although the official line is that there is still a commitment to an "aggressive" strategy, the next step of adding 57 in-route charged buses at PTC by 2023/24(?) may in practice indicate a slowing down of the plan, more like the "middle of the road" strategy which the consultants called the "progressive" option.

[Express691]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk0-M_6y53s

Latest video is about the electric bus project for TransLink - I mention this order at the end of the video.

[GORDOOM]

15 hours ago, martin607 said:

Although the official line is that there is still a commitment to an "aggressive" strategy, the next step of adding 57 in-route charged buses at PTC by 2023/24(?) may in practice indicate a slowing down of the plan, more like the "middle of the road" strategy which the consultants called the "progressive" option.

The LCFS report was based on pre-pandemic service expansion plans. Now that those plans have been deferred, bus procurements over the next few years are being reduced.