Vancouver Trolleybus Discussion

[UprisingCanadian]

In today's Mayor Council Meeting, it was mentioned that there is a demonstrator trolleybus (very likely an XT40) coming in with in motion charging capabilities. Now, my question is, are we just getting a unit from KCM/MUNI? Or are we getting a brand new demo unit, somewhat similar to what 2101 was.

[TranslinkKid]

New switches installed on the north end of the Granville Bridge to allow trolleys to switch from SB Granville to Howe and NB Seymour to Granville

[T3G]

Apologies if this is the wrong topic for this, but does anyone know the context of this photo? From the guideways I presumed it to be Vancouver.

This appears to be a Solaris bus. At any rate, it is very different to any bus I've ever seen in North America. I haven't found anything on the CMBC wiki page about them demonstrating any European bus. Does anyone have any information that may help?

Thanks in advance.

 

[dover5949]

Yes it is Vancouver & what you refer to a Guideway is an actual Bridge referred to as the "Arthur Laing" Bridge.

Reliable source at CMBC quotes "An announcement will be made in the weeks ahead" of it's arrival

[buizelbus]

4 hours ago, T3G said:

Apologies if this is the wrong topic for this, but does anyone know the context of this photo? From the guideways I presumed it to be Vancouver.

This appears to be a Solaris bus. At any rate, it is very different to any bus I've ever seen in North America. I haven't found anything on the CMBC wiki page about them demonstrating any European bus. Does anyone have any information that may help?

Thanks in advance.

 

It is a Solaris Trollino 12. I'm guessing it's for the CMBC trolley demo. The only Canadian manufacturer is NFI which hasn't produced an XT40 in a long time, so I'm guessing they're trying out a European bus as an alternative.

We'll get final details on an actual announcement soon.

[madog222]

On 7/31/2023 at 4:47 AM, buizelbus said:

The only Canadian manufacturer is NFI which hasn't produced an XT40 in a long time.

It's only been four years and they still list the model in their catalog.

[martin607]

A NFI demonstrator is likely to come later this year . At the moment a Muni XT40 has been retrofitted with a new and bigger battery of 71 kWh and is undergoing tests. These are going very well and off-wire range of at least 25km has been reached so far.

Don't read too much into the arrival of a competitor

[buizelbus]

12 hours ago, madog222 said:

It's only been four years and they still list the model in their catalog.

4 years is still quite awhile for a bus. They'd definitely still be an option, but with economies of scale the cost difference might outweigh the shipping cost from Europe.

At the end of the day, yeah nothing is final and we won't know who builds the order until they arrive or when TransLink announces.

[GORDOOM]

9 hours ago, buizelbus said:

4 years is still quite awhile for a bus. They'd definitely still be an option, but with economies of scale the cost difference might outweigh the shipping cost from Europe.

At the end of the day, yeah nothing is final and we won't know who builds the order until they arrive or when TransLink announces.

It's not just shipping costs, but also the need for Transport Canada certification. Unless CAF is making a play for the Canadian market more generally, it might not make sense to seek certification for a single order. (Wasn't this what did in the Neoplan/Škoda bid in the 2000s?)

[martin607]

They may be making more of a play for the US market than for Canada, though Translink's order is probably the first big one coming up.

I'm not sure it has been posted before, but Novabus is ceasing bus production in the USA by 2025. It may be that Solaris might want to set up a US operation to fill the gap -possibly one that concentrates solely on battery- and trolley-electric buses.

https://www.volvogroup.com/en/news-and-media/news/2023/jun/news-4571491.html.

[Mark Walton]

On 7/31/2023 at 12:21 AM, TranslinkKid said:

New switches installed on the north end of the Granville Bridge to allow trolleys to switch from SB Granville to Howe and NB Seymour to Granville

Are you sure those from-to directions are right? Looks to me it should be the other way around in each case. https://goo.gl/maps/pjw8WRFQ64ARyukA7

[M. Parsons]

On 8/2/2023 at 12:44 PM, GORDOOM said:

It's not just shipping costs, but also the need for Transport Canada certification. Unless CAF is making a play for the Canadian market more generally, it might not make sense to seek certification for a single order. (Wasn't this what did in the Neoplan/Škoda bid in the 2000s?)

What helped kill the Neoplan bid was that they only offered 40' buses, while New Flyer offered 40' and 60' buses as pre what the RFP requested. That would have cost Neoplan a lot of marks right there. My understanding too is that the Skoda propulsion package wasn't quite as modern as the Keipe package. Whether or not that factored in, I'm not sure.

I know at one point in time, possibly on the order of 10+ years ago, we have discussed TC admissibility somewhere on this board, and really, I don't believe it was much extra work. Granted, that is when thinking of US built vehicles, given our regulations generally follow the US. I guess there could be some greater changes required on a vehicle designed for the European market. I believe the prototype BYD's that Edmonton tested had non-compliant bumpers so needed an exemption. Some of the requirements are as simple as emergency exit instructions being in English and French.
Proterra certainly got their buses certified with only a 25 unit TTC order and 40 units ETS order. Incidentally, BYD isn't on the admissible list (and neither are ETS's former Easy On buses which is probably why none showed upon the second hand market).

[Phillip]

This week the Solaris trolleybus is on display at VTC for operators to view and check out.

It will be out on trail runs the week of August 14th-18th. 

[martin607]

Good. I've been waiting impatiently for sightings. I guess they had to make sure everything is perfect. Did it need a government inspection because it was a non-Canadian (or US) vehicle?

[Phillip]

1 hour ago, martin607 said:

Good. I've been waiting impatiently for sightings. I guess they had to make sure everything is perfect. Did it need a government inspection because it was a non-Canadian (or US) vehicle?

Correct, certification to allow it to operate on the streets, which is why it was hidden last week.

[Untitled Transit]

TMS Brill 2040 will be doing test runs around Downtown today.

[Transit Guy]

22 hours ago, Phillip said:

This week the Solaris trolleybus is on display at VTC for operators to view and check out.

It will be out on trail runs the week of August 14th-18th. 

Let me get this straight, they brought in a trolley from the other side of the world just to test it for five days in Vancouver in non-revenue service? Wouldn’t it make more sense to have them do some revenue runs on the 9 or something to test how passenger loads affect the IMC technology, or at the very least a similar sandbag test like BCRTC does before putting new trains into service? At least with the 9 the drivers can put the poles back up after any trip to charge the bus, where any other trolley corridor is fully-wired and doesn’t really need IMC at the moment.

[Bus_Medic]

1 hour ago, Transit Guy said:

Let me get this straight, they brought in a trolley from the other side of the world just to test it for five days in Vancouver in non-revenue service? Wouldn’t it make more sense to have them do some revenue runs on the 9 or something to test how passenger loads affect the IMC technology, or at the very least a similar sandbag test like BCRTC does before putting new trains into service? At least with the 9 the drivers can put the poles back up after any trip to charge the bus, where any other trolley corridor is fully-wired and doesn’t really need IMC at the moment.

That can be accomplished with water bags. No people required.

[martin607]

4 hours ago, Transit Guy said:

Let me get this straight, they brought in a trolley from the other side of the world just to test it for five days in Vancouver in non-revenue service? Wouldn’t it make more sense to have them do some revenue runs on the 9 or something to test how passenger loads affect the IMC technology, or at the very least a similar sandbag test like BCRTC does before putting new trains into service? At least with the 9 the drivers can put the poles back up after any trip to charge the bus, where any other trolley corridor is fully-wired and doesn’t really need IMC at the moment.

Maybe you are reading too much into the previous post. It doesn't say how long the demonstrator will be here. I can't imagine Solaris paid tens of thousands of dollars shipping it from Europe, just for it to spend only one week here. They want to sell their product so it needs to be demonstrated extensively e.g. the 9, the R4, the R5, some potential conversions like the 50. Also allowing passenger rides gets the public on their side.

I agree that it should be tested on  routes like the 9 to show how IMC equipped trolleys can deal with major disruptions without needing diesel substitutes. I even heard it could be tested in battery mode on steep hills in North Vancouver.

On 8/8/2023 at 5:03 PM, Phillip said:

This week the Solaris trolleybus is on display at VTC for operators to view and check out.

It will be out on trail runs the week of August 14th-18th. 

What's been the general reaction, and what's your personal opinion?

[Phillip]

8 hours ago, martin607 said:

 

 

8 hours ago, martin607 said:

What's been the general reaction, and what's your personal opinion?

I had a chance to check out the Solaris trolley.

Very interesting bus, there were two people on the bus telling me stuff about the bus.

They told me that the battery range is 40 km, but depends on the environment (ie. Hills, Winter, AC)

Aside from In-Motion charging and automatic pole raise/lowering, the poles can also heat the wires to melt away frost/ice to eliminate arcing.

Also, the plan for next week is to stop at Lonsdale Quay, Bridgeport stn, Metrotown and Burnaby Transit Centre. 

Next week they are going to install a rewiring pan in Marpole Loop to try it out.

[Transit Guy]

3 hours ago, martin607 said:

Maybe you are reading too much into the previous post. It doesn't say how long the demonstrator will be here. I can't imagine Solaris paid tens of thousands of dollars shipping it from Europe, just for it to spend only one week here. They want to sell their product so it needs to be demonstrated extensively e.g. the 9, the R4, the R5, some potential conversions like the 50. Also allowing passenger rides gets the public on their side.

I agree that it should be tested on  routes like the 9 to show how IMC equipped trolleys can deal with major disruptions without needing diesel substitutes. I even heard it could be tested in battery mode on steep hills in North Vancouver.

You’re probably right, to me it kinda sounded like it was testing for five days and going to some other agency to get tested.

2 hours ago, Phillip said:

 

I had a chance to check out the Solaris trolley.

Very interesting bus, there were two people on the bus telling me stuff about the bus.

They told me that the battery range is 40 km, but depends on the environment (ie. Hills, Winter, AC)

Aside from In-Motion charging and automatic pole raise/lowering, the poles can also heat the wires to melt away frost/ice to eliminate arching.

Also, the plan for next week is to stop at Lonsdale Quay, Bridgeport stn, Metrotown and Burnaby Transit Centre. 

Next week they are going to install a rewiring pan in Marpole Loop to try it out.

Heated poles sound pretty cool and would probably reduce costs on wire de-icer

[martin607]

21 hours ago, Phillip said:

 

Next week they are going to install a rewiring pan in Marpole Loop to try it out.

Maybe they will test it out on the 100, and realise that it would have been cheaper to use In Motion Charging trolleybuses on the 100, than those unreliable charging stations and BEBs.

[martin607]

More seriously, the Solaris has a 40km battery range, so it could probably do a return trip to 22nd St Station, part under wires, part battery. The distance and scheduled time from  Main to Marpole (with normal layover time) and back should be sufficient to get a good recharge. In practice it would probably be easier to make the change from battery to mains mode and vice versa at Marine Drive Station.

[UprisingCanadian]

10 hours ago, martin607 said:

More seriously, the Solaris has a 40km battery range, so it could probably do a return trip to 22nd St Station, part under wires, part battery. The distance and scheduled time from  Main to Marpole (with normal layover time) and back should be sufficient to get a good recharge. In practice it would probably be easier to make the change from battery to mains mode and vice versa at Marine Drive Station.

On the more extreme (and thus, unlikely) end of things, this could also allow for N19s to New West, 41s to UBC, N8/15/20/22s, and a few more I'm probably forgetting.

[Michael Marriott]

On 8/3/2023 at 2:53 PM, Mark Walton said:

Are you sure those from-to directions are right? Looks to me it should be the other way around in each case. https://goo.gl/maps/pjw8WRFQ64ARyukA7

The directions in the original post are correct, though phrased in such a way that would detailed local knowledge to understand.  The wire setup on the Granville Bridge (prior to the installation of these new switches) has the merging and diverging switches all at the south end of the bridge, with four sets of wire on the bridge.  Since the outer wire led to Seymour and Howe St, it was commonly referred to as the Seymour/Howe wire even though it was on Granville St.  The new switches allow trolleys on the SB inner (Granville) wire to switch to the outer (Howe) wire and NB outer (Seymour) wire to the inner (Granville) wire at the north end of the bridge due to construction blocking the centre lanes.