VIN Pages

[Articulated]

19 minutes ago, Kevin L said:

22 hours ago, MiExpress said:

Two thoughts - as an example, if we are going to name the pages with the year rather than the year code (2022 vs 'N' as an example) could we leave the preamble the same to indicate that only 'N' VINs should be on that page so people aren't adding 2023 model year buses built in 2022 to that page.

Something like New Flyer Industries 2022 VINs as an example?

I think that would be a good idea.

Agreed with the both of you with using the year rather than letter code for VIN pages.

It's something that needs to be done sooner rather than later, because conflicts have now started to arise; besides for MCI having VINs dating back to 1980, the Prevost H3-45 model has been around for 30 model years now, and @Dave Mackey has now started putting 2024 'R' VINs on the same page as the 1994 'R' VINs. I'm assuming this is a method we'd prefer to stay away from?

21 hours ago, ns8401 said:

Interesting... The page I was updating was for 2023 MCI J4500's. I would have thought that one would have been in the new format just because it's so recent.

https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/Motor_Coach_Industries_J4500_'P_VINs'

The user who created this page followed the old format rather than the newer condensed format that was more recently agreed upon by most users. The same user has also continued using separate model pages, rather than trying to build one page for all models under the same manufacturer that use the same VIN sequence (like MCI does). There's only so much the rather small admin staff can do in terms of policing users...

But yes, I agree with you (and @Kevin L above) that new pages should preferably use the newer, condensed template without the alternating colouring, which I agree that is an absolute pain in the @** to add units into the middle of existing tables.

[Kevin L]

Did a test page so people can visually see how it would look.

[Dave Mackey]

41 minutes ago, Kevin L said:

Did a test page so people can visually see how it would look.

Hello, I have been pulled into this discussion. I'm here to help! But I am at a bit of a quandry as how we're doing the VIN pages going forward myself.

I fully agree with the format as shown on such manufacturers as Gillig and Nova Bus, where they won't skip around with the VINs too much (with the exception of the nasty NY orders for both Nova Bus and co-owned Prevost), with short VINs (last eight characters starting with year code). The main caveat is that the full VINs need to be somewhere as not everyone wants to spend time figuring out an exact VIN given just the back end. 

I don't disagree with combining New Flyer Industries' total production, including MCI coaches, into one file. Since the MCI VINs were reconfigured, there's just one pool of numbers being used now among both brands. MCI previously had an 81000 series for the DCRT's, 60000's for E and J coaches (which was just about to run out), 16000's for legacy D, 21000's for J3500's. A mess! And I'm hopeful that New Flyer's insistence on neat VIN sequences rubs off on MCI so we don't have another mess like the 2021 D4500CT's for New Jersey Transit, with two plants involved and the scrambled VINs still not completely solved!

1 hour ago, Articulated said:

It's something that needs to be done sooner rather than later, because conflicts have now started to arise; besides for MCI having VINs dating back to 1980, the Prevost H3-45 model has been around for 30 model years now, and @Dave Mackey has now started putting 2024 'R' VINs on the same page as the 1994 'R' VINs. I'm assuming this is a method we'd prefer to stay away from?

 

I followed the lead of the Blue Bird All-American pages, a model that has been in continuous production since 1948. That first 2024 Prevost VIN comes from the parts catalog which cited the unit listed as the first 2024 H3-45.

[ns8401]

3 hours ago, Dave Mackey said:

Hello, I have been pulled into this discussion. I'm here to help! But I am at a bit of a quandry as how we're doing the VIN pages going forward myself.

I fully agree with the format as shown on such manufacturers as Gillig and Nova Bus, where they won't skip around with the VINs too much (with the exception of the nasty NY orders for both Nova Bus and co-owned Prevost), with short VINs (last eight characters starting with year code). The main caveat is that the full VINs need to be somewhere as not everyone wants to spend time figuring out an exact VIN given just the back end. 

I don't disagree with combining New Flyer Industries' total production, including MCI coaches, into one file. Since the MCI VINs were reconfigured, there's just one pool of numbers being used now among both brands. MCI previously had an 81000 series for the DCRT's, 60000's for E and J coaches (which was just about to run out), 16000's for legacy D, 21000's for J3500's. A mess! And I'm hopeful that New Flyer's insistence on neat VIN sequences rubs off on MCI so we don't have another mess like the 2021 D4500CT's for New Jersey Transit, with two plants involved and the scrambled VINs still not completely solved!

I followed the lead of the Blue Bird All-American pages, a model that has been in continuous production since 1948. That first 2024 Prevost VIN comes from the parts catalog which cited the unit listed as the first 2024 H3-45.

Each year needs its own page. If the letters repeat 30 times someone can pick the year they want at least. If it’s buried under line upon line of some other year from decades ago… that seems a pain to deal with. 
 

Personally I would like to see each individual unit listed with a full vin number and a thick black line indicating a different order starting. But VIN’s are pretty easy to figure out… you’re only missing 1 digit… you can mash in x and 0-9 it’ll go on one of them if the rest of the info is correct.

[Kevin L]

5 hours ago, Dave Mackey said:

Hello, I have been pulled into this discussion. I'm here to help! But I am at a bit of a quandry as how we're doing the VIN pages going forward myself.

Its been one of the more tougher things to figure out how to organize and display them. 

When we started this VIN project there were certain things that were not anticipated or realized. (ie difficulty with changing alternating colours for different orders, repeating VIN year codes, large transit agency orders needing 150-200 individual lines for each vin).

5 hours ago, Dave Mackey said:

The main caveat is that the full VINs need to be somewhere as not everyone wants to spend time figuring out an exact VIN given just the back end.

On the test page I only consolidated the vins that already had pages. My preference is to leave the full vin until pages are created for them.

1 hour ago, ns8401 said:

Personally I would like to see each individual unit listed with a full vin number and a thick black line indicating a different order starting.

For some of the transit bus pages especially, full vins result in very long tables and a lot of editing for large orders or big production years.

 

The format may not work for everyone but I think we have found a good balance between editing time, page/table length and displaying info.

[AlexLy]

A friend of mine noticed a huge problem with the 2017 NOVA BUS H VINS page. As well as STM's 37-001 to 37-107 fleet page.

The VINs are not correctly aligned with the actual vehicles.

Right now on the "Société de transport de Montréal 37-001 to 37-107" page, we read:
37-055        2017    2NVYL82L3H3750689
37-056        2017    2NVYL82LXH3750690
37-057        2017    2NVYL82L1H3750691
37-058        2017    2NVYL82L3H3750692

and

37-059        2017    2NVYL82L7H3750694
37-060        2017    2NVYL82L9H3750695
37-061        2017    2NVYL82L0H3750696
37-062        2017    2NVYL82L2H3750697

I went directly to a source to find out buses 37-055 to 058 HAVE these following VINs:
2NVYL82L7H3750694    37-055    
2NVYL82L9H3750695    37-056    
2NVYL82L0H3750696    37-057    
2NVYL82L2H3750697    37-058    

They are currently WRONGLY aligned with 37-059 to 062 on the Wiki and etc.

The buses carrying the VINs: 2NVYL82L3H3750689, 2NVYL82LXH3750690, 2NVYL82L1H3750691 and 2NVYL82L3H3750692 are actually STS Saguenay 1701 to 1704.

By the way, the page needs to be renamed from "Société de transport du Saguenay 1701-1703" to "Société de transport du Saguenay 1701-1704".

That's a lot of work that has to be done because it impacts directly the page "Nova Bus 'H VINs'".

I am not comfortable to do all this as I'm not an expert on editing the Wiki.

[Articulated]

2 hours ago, AlexLy said:

A friend of mine noticed a huge problem with the 2017 NOVA BUS H VINS page. As well as STM's 37-001 to 37-107 fleet page.

The VINs are not correctly aligned with the actual vehicles.

Right now on the "Société de transport de Montréal 37-001 to 37-107" page, we read:
37-055        2017    2NVYL82L3H3750689
37-056        2017    2NVYL82LXH3750690
37-057        2017    2NVYL82L1H3750691
37-058        2017    2NVYL82L3H3750692

and

37-059        2017    2NVYL82L7H3750694
37-060        2017    2NVYL82L9H3750695
37-061        2017    2NVYL82L0H3750696
37-062        2017    2NVYL82L2H3750697

I went directly to a source to find out buses 37-055 to 058 HAVE these following VINs:
2NVYL82L7H3750694    37-055    
2NVYL82L9H3750695    37-056    
2NVYL82L0H3750696    37-057    
2NVYL82L2H3750697    37-058    

They are currently WRONGLY aligned with 37-059 to 062 on the Wiki and etc.

The buses carrying the VINs: 2NVYL82L3H3750689, 2NVYL82LXH3750690, 2NVYL82L1H3750691 and 2NVYL82L3H3750692 are actually STS Saguenay 1701 to 1704.

By the way, the page needs to be renamed from "Société de transport du Saguenay 1701-1703" to "Société de transport du Saguenay 1701-1704".

That's a lot of work that has to be done because it impacts directly the page "Nova Bus 'H VINs'".

I am not comfortable to do all this as I'm not an expert on editing the Wiki.

Thank you for the info and the update. I've edited the Nova Bus 'H VINs' page to reflect the proper VINs belonging to Saugenay 1701-1704 and STM 37-055 to 37-107, and also updated the VINs on the page for the latter series.

BTW, next time if you notice a page that needs to be moved to a new title, you can drop a message in the Modifying a page title topic. I try to check that thread fairly often, and can make the page move relatively quickly and easily; however, I can't move what I don't know about though!

[AlexLy]

16 hours ago, Articulated said:

Thank you for the info and the update. I've edited the Nova Bus 'H VINs' page to reflect the proper VINs belonging to Saugenay 1701-1704 and STM 37-055 to 37-107, and also updated the VINs on the page for the latter series.

BTW, next time if you notice a page that needs to be moved to a new title, you can drop a message in the Modifying a page title topic. I try to check that thread fairly often, and can make the page move relatively quickly and easily; however, I can't move what I don't know about though!

Thank you very much! I'll also take note of that. :)

[bus_7246]

TTC XE40 VINs

7201 - 2FYH8FR03PC106597

7202 - 2FYH8FR05PC106598

7208 - 2FYH8FR07PC106604

7209 - 2FYH8FR09PC106605

7213 - 2FYH8FR06PC106609

7214 - 2FYH8FR02PC106610

7217 - 2FYH8FR08PC106613

7218 - 2FYH8FR0XPC106614

7219 - 2FYH8FR01PC106615

7220 - 2FYH8FR03PC106616

 

TTC XDE60 VINs

9400 - 2FYH8YU05PC106880

9401 - 2FYH8YU07PC106881

[Transit Spotlight]

Me, as well as other editors have been working on fixing up VIN pages for Thomas, IC Bus and Blue Bird, but I feel like some proper standards/procedures should be put in place regarding these three manufacturers in particular. 

Firstly, I think it's time to change the page titles for the FS-65 and C2 so that  they are listed under the Freightliner Custom Chassis brand instead.  The issue primarily arises because the FS-65 chassis was used by other manufacturers up until the 2002 model year, those being Blue Bird, Corbeil, Carpenter/Crown, etc.  It makes far more sense to me to have them lumped under one VIN page rather than one page for each body manufacturer.  We can include a "Bodywork" column to specify the body manufacturer of that particular VIN/VINs.  The next applies for both the FS-65 and C2, but given that the manufacturer code for all FS-65/C2 buses is 4UZ (Freightliner Custom Chassis) it makes far more sense for Freightliner Custom Chassis to be the title of the page.  Obviously the pages for Thomas' rear engine products made using their chassis can remain unchanged.  This also can allow us to include other Freightliner bus chassis on the same VIN pages on the C2, any with the 4UZ manufacturer code.

With IC Bus, I've started converting some of the pages to the new format, but it's a very slow process.  Just like with the MCI and NFI pages, I added a model column which includes the common model name (such as BE, CE, RE, FE) plus the internal IC Bus model name (PB for school, PC for commercial, followed by a 3 digit number.  105 for CE, 205 for FE, 305 for RE and 405 for BE.)  Eventually I will work on merging all the IC Bus VIN pages into one per model year and the pages should eventually be renamed to be more in line with the rest of the VIN pages on the Wiki.

In terms of Blue Bird, the merging of VIN pages is already ongoing but there's one major question I have, and that's in regard to the model column.  I've noticed some editors strictly use the internal model name listed on Vantage (so for example T3 RE 4008), while others use the common model name + the internal model name (so for example All American (T3 RE 4008).  Which format do you think should be the standard for the Blue Bird pages?  Personally I'm leaning more towards just using the common model name + the length as the standard, but I'd like to hear someone else's opinion.  Also keep in mind that there are some buses in Blue Bird's model range that have different names in different regions, and in some cases the internal model names being very different than the common model name.  An example being the Blue Bird Ultra LF which is referred to as the L4 RE.  Also, if the fuel is anything but diesel (CNG, propane, gas, electric) it can also be specified in the model name as well.

I'd like to hear everybody's opinion on this, and hopefully a proper standard can be developed for these manufacturers.

[19adam99]

On 7/17/2024 at 10:18 PM, Transit Spotlight said:

Me, as well as other editors have been working on fixing up VIN pages for Thomas, IC Bus and Blue Bird, but I feel like some proper standards/procedures should be put in place regarding these three manufacturers in particular. 

I support this, as someone who has been going through the FS-65 VIN pages over the past few weeks and adding remarks about Blue Bird/Crown chassis when found.

I never quite understood why it wasn't separated from the start, because the FS-65 was used by multiple manufacturers. I understand it's often associated with Thomas, since they assisted in it's development.

I've started working on building out the International/Navistar chassis pages, which would still fit under this sort of task as well.

In short, I support.

[Kevin L]

On 7/17/2024 at 11:18 PM, Transit Spotlight said:

Firstly, I think it's time to change the page titles for the FS-65 and C2 so that  they are listed under the Freightliner Custom Chassis brand instead.  The issue primarily arises because the FS-65 chassis was used by other manufacturers up until the 2002 model year, those being Blue Bird, Corbeil, Carpenter/Crown, etc.  It makes far more sense to me to have them lumped under one VIN page rather than one page for each body manufacturer.  We can include a "Bodywork" column to specify the body manufacturer of that particular VIN/VINs.  The next applies for both the FS-65 and C2, but given that the manufacturer code for all FS-65/C2 buses is 4UZ (Freightliner Custom Chassis) it makes far more sense for Freightliner Custom Chassis to be the title of the page.  Obviously the pages for Thomas' rear engine products made using their chassis can remain unchanged.  This also can allow us to include other Freightliner bus chassis on the same VIN pages on the C2, any with the 4UZ manufacturer code.

A Freightliner Custom Chassis page would probably be the best option. I see it as similar enough to the IC Bus chassis arrangement we have now.

On 7/17/2024 at 11:18 PM, Transit Spotlight said:

In terms of Blue Bird, the merging of VIN pages is already ongoing but there's one major question I have, and that's in regard to the model column.  I've noticed some editors strictly use the internal model name listed on Vantage (so for example T3 RE 4008), while others use the common model name + the internal model name (so for example All American (T3 RE 4008).  Which format do you think should be the standard for the Blue Bird pages?  Personally I'm leaning more towards just using the common model name + the length as the standard, but I'd like to hear someone else's opinion.  Also keep in mind that there are some buses in Blue Bird's model range that have different names in different regions, and in some cases the internal model names being very different than the common model name.  An example being the Blue Bird Ultra LF which is referred to as the L4 RE.  Also, if the fuel is anything but diesel (CNG, propane, gas, electric) it can also be specified in the model name as well.

 

The internal name could be used but would need to be liked to the model page for those who are unsure of the internal name. I like the blend of the common and internal name personally even if it takes up more space.

[19adam99]

Just want to get a general consensus here before we get too deep into this with the Freightliner Custom Chassis VIN pages.

Are we directing the "model" portion to the "Thomas Built Buses FS-65" page if it's between 2002 and 2007?

I'd assume direct to the standard "Freightliner Custom Chassis FS-65" page if it's anything before that, when several manufacturers were using the FS-65 chassis, unless it's verifiably a Thomas.

[Transit Spotlight]

34 minutes ago, 19adam99 said:

Just want to get a general consensus here before we get too deep into this with the Freightliner Custom Chassis VIN pages.

Are we directing the "model" portion to the "Thomas Built Buses FS-65" page if it's between 2002 and 2007?

I'd assume direct to the standard "Freightliner Custom Chassis FS-65" page if it's anything before that, when several manufacturers were using the FS-65 chassis, unless it's verifiably a Thomas.

I think the best practice is to have a model column for all the FCC pages, as even in the days of the FS-65, a commercial bus chassis based on the same platform called the FB-65 was also avaliable.  I'd say any year 2002 and below should have the bodywork column, although that information can be omitted on 2003 and above.  If body information needs to be specified on a 2003 and up page, like on the S2C/M2, it can always be placed in the notes column instead.

[19adam99]

35 minutes ago, Transit Spotlight said:

I think the best practice is to have a model column for all the FCC pages, as even in the days of the FS-65, a commercial bus chassis based on the same platform called the FB-65 was also available.  I'd say any year 2002 and below should have the bodywork column, although that information can be omitted on 2003 and above.  If body information needs to be specified on a 2003 and up page, like on the S2C/M2, it can always be placed in the notes column instead.

Excellent, I agree, bodywork column for anything 2002 and below should be fine.

I've already done something like that on the 2006 page, as I found a few FB-65 ABC M1000s for sale.

[Transit Spotlight]

37 minutes ago, 19adam99 said:

Excellent, I agree, bodywork column for anything 2002 and below should be fine.

I've already done something like that on the 2006 page, as I found a few FB-65 ABC M1000s for sale.

Sounds like a plan.  I also really like the idea of commenting the full VINs in the source code of the page, that way the full VINs can still be archived.  I will still likely put the full VINs on one-off units without a fleet page created, but either or works as long as the VIN is archived in some way.  With some of the IC Bus pages, I have been putting the first 6 characters of the VIN in the notes section, that way people can input the first 6 of the VIN, a random check digit value, plus the serial number into a check digit calculator, which will spit out the correct check digit for you.  Now that I see your new method I definitely think that it is much superior and will start switching pages over.  On a side note, I did put a note in the FCC 2011, 2012 and 2015 VIN page about the fact the full VINs are commented so that it's more clear where they are.  Perhaps for the FCC/Thomas/Blue Bird/IC Bus pages that's something that we can switch to doing.

[19adam99]

10 minutes ago, Transit Spotlight said:

Sounds like a plan.  ~ On a side note, I did put a note in the FCC 2011, 2012 and 2015 VIN page about the fact the full VINs are commented so that it's more clear where they are.  Perhaps for the FCC/Thomas/Blue Bird/IC Bus pages that's something that we can switch to doing.

I'll add that mention going forward. As for the commenting on full VINs, I'd been doing that for the pages I've made or changed because it still shows up if someone were to input a VIN in the search box on the wiki. It keeps the pages less cluttered while not entirely inhibiting the spread of information.

One-off units, such as Demos or units with anything particularly special about them I'd say we can add the full VIN in the page.

For the FCC pages, are we only including VINs with a WMI of "4UZ"?

I've noticed some S2C and M2 chassis have a WMI of "1FV", so would assume those would be included as well as they're part of the FCC lineup?

• 1FV - Freightliner Chassis or Complete Vehicle produced by Daimler Trucks North America, LLC, Mt. Holly, NC
• 4UZ - Freightliner Custom Chassis Corporation, Gaffney, SC

[Transit Spotlight]

1 minute ago, 19adam99 said:

I'll add that mention going forward. As for the commenting on full VINs, I'd been doing that for the pages I've made or changed because it still shows up if someone were to input a VIN in the search box on the wiki. It keeps the pages less cluttered while not entirely inhibiting the spread of information.

One-off units, such as Demos or units with anything particularly special about them I'd say we can add the full VIN in the page.

For the FCC pages, are we only including VINs with a WMI of "4UZ"?

I've noticed some S2C and M2 chassis have a WMI of "1FV", so would assume those would be included as well as they're part of the FCC lineup?

• 1FV - Freightliner Chassis or Complete Vehicle produced by Daimler Trucks North America, LLC, Mt. Holly, NC
• 4UZ - Freightliner Custom Chassis Corporation, Gaffney, SC

I think that's a good idea to add units with 1FV VINs in there too, since Freightliner shares the same serial number scheme across their entire product line (trucks, buses, etc)