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MiExpress

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2 hours ago, MiExpress said:

Recently, there has been initiative to convert the Gillig VIN pages into the new format, as shown by the New Flyer, Nova and Eldorado pages.

In previous discussions in this thread, the issue of Gillig's serial sequence was bought up. In short, Gillig does not assign their serials in any sequential order which makes having their VIN pages by model year is extremely difficult. However, there wasn't much consensus on what path to take with the Gillig page, whether it be by model year or serial range.

Recently the Gillig 2020 VIN page was converted based on maintaining the model year format, with the 2019 page also being converted in this manner. Given that I also started working on the 2010 model year page based on this format. 

Given the results of how the 2019 and 2020 Gillig VIN pages now look, as well as my experience trying to apply this format to the 2010 Gillig VIN page, I strongly believe that having the Gillig VIN pages by serial number range is the only effective way to have these pages. With the way Gillig serials are assigned, the end results of maintaining the model year format makes the Gillig VIN pages look broken up, take far too long to edit and based on my experience trying to edit the 2010 model year page, lead to a unaesthetic page.

For example, here is the 2020 Gillig VIN page: https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/Gillig_Low_Floor_'L_VINs'

As one can see, due to Gillig not assigning serials in any particular sequence relative to model year, the page looks terrible and based on my unfinished version of the 2010 Gillig VIN page using this format, it will look even worse with all the links added in to the other model year pages when necessary.

Given those concerns, I feel that having the Gillig VIN pages by serial year is the way to go, and I am posting so my thoughts are known and hopefully some consensus can be reached. In talking to some other editors, after seeing the results of trying Gillig VIN pages by sticking to the model year format, they agree that going by serial number range is likely better. Points that would need to be discussed include how exactly to title the pages and how to go in increments - 1000, 5000, or just put each of the serial sequences on their own pages (also keeping in mind the 29' models have their own serial sequence).

1 hour ago, Orion6025 said:

I would endorse this as well ^^. Of the top ~~100 rows of the L VINs page, only 19 of them have to do with L-series VINs... Granted, we’re certainly missing some serials that would fit in the huge block, but that doesn’t excuse the fact that the page doesn’t really look as nice and doesn’t communicate information well. I mean,,, currently only 19% of the first 100 rows has information relevant to the page title...

And while the K VINs page looks a little less extreme, that’s because only a couple 2018 model blocks have been put in. If someone actually went to fill in all the J VINs on that page, I imagine it would look just as insane.

It takes long enough to just gather the serials to put onto a page because of how many different orders Gillig fulfills, and having to spend another hour or so editing at least three pages to make sure the different serial groups are reflected accurately across all the relevant pages is really not fun... not to mention that all the extra work just makes all three pages harder to read.. It kind of becomes a lose/lose situation; it’s not fun as an editor, nor is it fun as a reader (From my POV, at least). i kind of wish I could get some of the time back that i sunk into the K and L VINs page; while the concept of condensing vins into this type of format works great (Older versions of the L VINs page without all the 2019 serial blocks look fine IMO), this method of grouping serials is really not nice to read/process...

Also the fact that editors may need to edit up to at least three pages just to input one serial block means that the format is ripe for mistakes as well in the future.

As a full disclaimer, initially I had no opinion - making pages by serial blocks was not standard, but making pages by model year would result in a lot of linking.

That said, having an actual, worked example of what a page grouped by model year looks like, and having worked on those pages and getting an idea of the work needed to put them together, I agree, it would be wiser to go by blocks of serials instead..

————

While we’re on this topic, I’d like to propose linking VIN pages in a similar manner to what is done on the New Flyer pages with the white bar and bold black text, and also employing the use of empty rows for gaps in serials..

to keep the pages at a reasonable length, perhaps the serials should be grouped at no more than 1,000? That’s just an arbitrary suggestion, but I went thru the New Flyer pages (randomly chose some from the 2003-2009 block) and the difference between the lowest and highest serial #s on the pages are generally between 1,000 and 3,000. I generally find the new flyer pages to be of a reasonable length so shooting for something in that range would be best IMO. I choose the lower bound though since not all of the 1,000-3,000 serials will have their own rows on the NFI pages of course due to differences in model year (making the page appear artificially short), so it might be better to lean on the lower end since we would be creating rows for every serial used.. 

Title suggestion-

Gillig Serials #[Lower bound]-[Upper bound]

It's late for me so no essay tonight... but essentially I agree with the two posts above. Gillig serials are not assigned by year, and are extremely messy as a result. Buses with adjacent serials can be built 6 years apart.

I want to thank @Detroit Diesel 6V92TA and @Orion6025 for putting together the first year-based pages as test cases - your work is great and the general layout is good, but I think shows the limitations and issues that comes up with. The Gillig Low Floor 'L VINs' page is a good example, where there are multiple filler lines in between each entry. If there is more "filler" than actual content, it becomes a question of usefulness and relevance.

My $0.02, but I'd suggest grouping the serial pages into blocks of 10000, using the first 3 digits of the 7-digit serial (i.e. 107, 109, 111, etc.), as those blocks all have commonalities (107 are 35/40' low floors, 109 are 29' low floors, 111 are Phantoms)

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Before the idea of still doing Gilligs by model year came about, I had been working offline on converting the page formats to a format based on serial range. To be honest I thought there was better consensus on going in that direction but after reading through this thread it doesn't look like much of a consensus developed. 

If we do indeed move ahead with going with the Gillig VIN pages based on serials, I've already done 1070000-1079999 (35-40ft low floor) and was starting on 1090000 (29ft low floor) so I can handle getting those series up on the wiki easily sometime this week/by this weekend.

I do agree that having the pages just set up that all serials in the same blocks of 10,000 are on the same page as it will make linking easier to do, however perhaps the tables themselves should be broken into blocks of 1,000 (not separate pages, just blocks the same as you would separate a active and  retired roster) as it will make the pages easy to edit and avoid really long tables. 

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How about laying out the pages by serial for the Low Floors, but by year for the Phantoms & Spirits? I noticed the craziness on the Gillig LF L VINs page and there's no point for me to hold you guys back at this point in terms of going with the serial route. However I think this problem is not as apparent for the older buses and I'd still like to do those by year. I'd work on them myself as well.

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Having a look through the Phantom VIN pages and my personal view is that those will need to be done by serial number as well as there are lots of cases of things not being in any apparent order (especially as you get later into the model years) and we will end up with the same issue we ran into with testing the Gillig LF VINs pages by model year. It will also ensure consistency between all the Gillig pages.

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On 5/24/2021 at 3:20 PM, MiExpress said:

I've created the first page of Gillig serials in the new format (serials x1070000-x1079999 which are 35-40' Low Floors). I plan to work on the other serial ranges over the next little while as time permits.

https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/Gillig_VINs_'1070000-1079999'

This demo page is excellent and I will agree with the serial method from here on out.

However I have 1 single request, I want to hold off on the permanent deletion of the old VIN pages for Gillig until I thoroughly examine them and archive them on wayback machine. I want to make sure no specific details are lost during the transition. As for everything else including the linking of the new VIN pages to the fleet pages, I am ready for you guys to move forward. @Articulated @Kevin L 

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It is possible now to expand and possibly convert some of the Blue Bird Company VINs by using this website right here: http://vantage.blue-bird.com/Portal/Unit-Dashboard.aspx

I have been using it for over two weeks to look up a full VIN but I discovered a method of searching the VINs simply by entering the chassis/body (aka serial) number; for example, entering F202405 (LA Metro 9974) on the bus lookup search bar gave me this entry with the owner part of that page being misleading: http://vantage.blue-bird.com/Portal/Unit-Dashboard.aspx?search= 1BAGNBXA92F202405

And then entering the next serial in sequence (F202406) gave me a previously unknown Blue Bird CS Bus belonging to Cruise West in Alaska: http://vantage.blue-bird.com/Portal/Unit-Dashboard.aspx?search= F202406

Some of the sequence numbers (e.g. F202407-F202408) however might not exist so I tried the next one in sequence (F202409) and it shows another previously unknown Blue Bird All American FE vehicle from West Central Mass Transit in Illinois: http://vantage.blue-bird.com/Portal/Unit-Dashboard.aspx?search= F202409

Blue Bird VIN pages made in the new format should be based on the manufacturing plant; the Wanderlodge VINs are the easiest to make as the existing Blue Bird Express and 2005-2007 Blue Bird Ultra LF VINs can be consolidated into a single page containing the vehicles built at that plant while adding previously undocumented VINs as well; there are under 600 units spanning from the 2003-2007 model years with the serials ranging from W100000-W100590; VINs with the Wanderlodge plant code based on the new format should be labeled as: Blue Bird Wanderlodge '[x model year] VINs'

Beware that some of the 2003-2007 Wanderlodge VINs are later production Blue Bird Wanderlodge RVs bought under private ownership which may have to labeled as commercial vehicles.

For the Fort Valley, GA VINs however, this process is longer than converting the Wanderlodge pages as there are a lot of VINs that have not been documented on the wiki coupled with the huge number of vehicles (mostly school buses) built at that plant (e.g. Blue Bird All American, Vision, TC2000, TC1000, CS Bus, early production Ultra LFs, Xcel 102 models, etc.) therefore it should likely be based on model year along with serial number like the Gillig Low Floor VINs made in the new format; VINs with the Fort Valley, GA plant code based on the new format should be labeled as: Blue Bird Fort Valley, GA '[x model year] VINs' 

The Blue Bird All American 'B-M VINs' if the old VIN format were to be retained will have to be separated as a result of the expansion thanks to the new method of finding Blue Bird VINs I discovered by labeling the pages as, for example:

Blue Bird All American 1991 'M VINs' or Blue Bird All American 'M VINs' (1991) for the 1991 model year

Blue Bird All American 2021 'M VINs' or Blue Bird All American 'M VINs' (2021) for the 2021 model year

I also found an updated Blue Bird VIN definition chart (https://vantage.blue-bird.com/Portal/VIN-Definition-chart1.aspx) on the same Blue Bird Vantage website that describes the serial numbers, meaning that the Blue Bird VIN Explanation should be updated to include the info found on that aforementioned chart.

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23 hours ago, BroncoFan623 said:

I'm starting to convert the Gillig '8 VINs' page to the new format. 

I copied the Gillig 'K VINs' page code onto a Google Doc, and I'm changing all the info on there before I put it on here.

I'm glad to help out any way I can!

We've decided not to use this method any longer due to the large amount of gaps that are created. I initially favored this method, but now even I have to agree with the other editors and admins that the serial method will have to be the way to go for Gilligs. I guess there's nothing stopping you from converting, but I think those "by year" pages will eventually be abandoned unfortunately.

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1 hour ago, Detroit Diesel 6V92TA said:

We've decided not to use this method any longer due to the large amount of gaps that are created. I initially favored this method, but now even I have to agree with the other editors and admins that the serial method will have to be the way to go for Gilligs. I guess there's nothing stopping you from converting, but I think those "by year" pages will eventually be abandoned unfortunately.

Aww no. Okie dokie. I'm not gonna do it anymore.

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  • 7 months later...

Recently I made 3 different personal sandbox pages to test out new stuff for the CPTDB wiki: two Blue Bird VIN pages with the new format based on manufacturing plant to take advantage of some new method of obtaining VINs I just did and another for the 1992 New Flyer VIN page to decide whether or not anyone wants the old 1992 'N VINs' added to the current 2022 New Flyer VIN page (https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/New_Flyer_Industries_'N_VINs').

I just found out another, more potent method of using the Blue Bird Vantage website (http://vantage.blue-bird.com/Portal/Unit-Dashboard.aspx) to obtain a lot of Blue Bird VINs in a matter of days; by entering a couple of number/letters on the search bar (minimum of 5, e.g. the first 5 digits of the body/chassis factory service number and at least 5 digits of the chassis ID), a list will be generated showing the results of that bus lookup with a limit of 500 entries - enough to get every single VIN for certain Blue Bird vehicle models. That research I did gave me some important info: the Q-Bus model was discontinued during the 2003 model year instead of 2001 and the Xcel 102 was introduced in mid-2002 for the 2003 model year instead of 2001. Here are some examples of obtaining VINs using that practice at the aforementioned website:

FL4RE: All Ultra LF buses built in Fort Valley, GA

WL4RE: All Ultra LF buses built at the Wanderlodge facility

FL3RE: All Ultra LMB buses

FQBRE: 1998-2003 Blue Bird Q-Bus VINs

WM4RE: All Blue Bird Express buses

FC4RE: Possibly all Blue Bird Xcel 102 buses

F2156: Blue Bird Fort Valley, GA VINs F215600-F215699

So, what do you think? Separating the old New Flyer VINs (1987-1992) from the new ones (2017-2022) are optional but splitting the old and the new Blue Bird letter/number VINs are mandatory as those pages can become huge enough to cause slowdowns on the wiki while editing. This newly discovered practice of getting Blue Bird VINs mean a much bigger opportunity to fill in a lot of important missing pieces of info from one notable school bus builder having a somewhat obscure presence in the transit bus industry.

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On 1/25/2022 at 3:30 AM, OCTD 2039 said:

Recently I made 3 different personal sandbox pages to test out new stuff for the CPTDB wiki: two Blue Bird VIN pages with the new format based on manufacturing plant to take advantage of some new method of obtaining VINs I just did and another for the 1992 New Flyer VIN page to decide whether or not anyone wants the old 1992 'N VINs' added to the current 2022 New Flyer VIN page (https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/New_Flyer_Industries_'N_VINs').

I just found out another, more potent method of using the Blue Bird Vantage website (http://vantage.blue-bird.com/Portal/Unit-Dashboard.aspx) to obtain a lot of Blue Bird VINs in a matter of days; by entering a couple of number/letters on the search bar (minimum of 5, e.g. the first 5 digits of the body/chassis factory service number and at least 5 digits of the chassis ID), a list will be generated showing the results of that bus lookup with a limit of 500 entries - enough to get every single VIN for certain Blue Bird vehicle models. That research I did gave me some important info: the Q-Bus model was discontinued during the 2003 model year instead of 2001 and the Xcel 102 was introduced in mid-2002 for the 2003 model year instead of 2001. Here are some examples of obtaining VINs using that practice at the aforementioned website:

FL4RE: All Ultra LF buses built in Fort Valley, GA

WL4RE: All Ultra LF buses built at the Wanderlodge facility

FL3RE: All Ultra LMB buses

FQBRE: 1998-2003 Blue Bird Q-Bus VINs

WM4RE: All Blue Bird Express buses

FC4RE: Possibly all Blue Bird Xcel 102 buses

F2156: Blue Bird Fort Valley, GA VINs F215600-F215699

So, what do you think? Separating the old New Flyer VINs (1987-1992) from the new ones (2017-2022) are optional but splitting the old and the new Blue Bird letter/number VINs are mandatory as those pages can become huge enough to cause slowdowns on the wiki while editing. This newly discovered practice of getting Blue Bird VINs mean a much bigger opportunity to fill in a lot of important missing pieces of info from one notable school bus builder having a somewhat obscure presence in the transit bus industry.

 

Wow, didn't know Blue Bird site that existed. It even tells you the original customer!

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On 1/25/2022 at 12:30 AM, OCTD 2039 said:

Recently I made 3 different personal sandbox pages to test out new stuff for the CPTDB wiki: two Blue Bird VIN pages with the new format based on manufacturing plant to take advantage of some new method of obtaining VINs I just did and another for the 1992 New Flyer VIN page to decide whether or not anyone wants the old 1992 'N VINs' added to the current 2022 New Flyer VIN page (https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/New_Flyer_Industries_'N_VINs').

I just found out another, more potent method of using the Blue Bird Vantage website (http://vantage.blue-bird.com/Portal/Unit-Dashboard.aspx) to obtain a lot of Blue Bird VINs in a matter of days; by entering a couple of number/letters on the search bar (minimum of 5, e.g. the first 5 digits of the body/chassis factory service number and at least 5 digits of the chassis ID), a list will be generated showing the results of that bus lookup with a limit of 500 entries - enough to get every single VIN for certain Blue Bird vehicle models. That research I did gave me some important info: the Q-Bus model was discontinued during the 2003 model year instead of 2001 and the Xcel 102 was introduced in mid-2002 for the 2003 model year instead of 2001. Here are some examples of obtaining VINs using that practice at the aforementioned website:

FL4RE: All Ultra LF buses built in Fort Valley, GA

WL4RE: All Ultra LF buses built at the Wanderlodge facility

FL3RE: All Ultra LMB buses

FQBRE: 1998-2003 Blue Bird Q-Bus VINs

WM4RE: All Blue Bird Express buses

FC4RE: Possibly all Blue Bird Xcel 102 buses

F2156: Blue Bird Fort Valley, GA VINs F215600-F215699

So, what do you think? Separating the old New Flyer VINs (1987-1992) from the new ones (2017-2022) are optional but splitting the old and the new Blue Bird letter/number VINs are mandatory as those pages can become huge enough to cause slowdowns on the wiki while editing. This newly discovered practice of getting Blue Bird VINs mean a much bigger opportunity to fill in a lot of important missing pieces of info from one notable school bus builder having a somewhat obscure presence in the transit bus industry.

I had the same concern... I think the pages should be split. I just don't know how we'd go on with naming them. If we don't split them, I guess it wouldn't be a huge deal (besides blue bird as you mentioned). @Articulated

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Do all those Blue Bird models share the same serial sequence? If all those Blue Bird models share the same serial sequences then I feel they need to be on the same VIN page for consistency and for the purpose of creating a proper list. For that reason I don't feel the Blue Bird VINs should be split by model, but if page length is a concern I would propose splitting the pages up by serial range.

As for the New Flyer VIN pages I can see the merits to both suggestions and am indifferent; but will point out having both model years (in your example, 1992 and 2022) on the same page not only simplifies linking but makes the template less cluttered. Since New Flyer pages aren't long to start with and New Flyer was not manufacturing as many buses in the 1980s and 1990s, page length is not really a concern here.

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First off, thank you @OCTD 2039 for kicking off the conversation - dealing with the VIN pages repeating every 30 years has been a concern in the back of my head for a while, so I'm glad to see it being talked about.

On 1/25/2022 at 3:30 AM, OCTD 2039 said:

Recently I made 3 different personal sandbox pages to test out new stuff for the CPTDB wiki: two Blue Bird VIN pages with the new format based on manufacturing plant to take advantage of some new method of obtaining VINs I just did and another for the 1992 New Flyer VIN page to decide whether or not anyone wants the old 1992 'N VINs' added to the current 2022 New Flyer VIN page (https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/New_Flyer_Industries_'N_VINs').

...

So, what do you think? Separating the old New Flyer VINs (1987-1992) from the new ones (2017-2022) are optional but splitting the old and the new Blue Bird letter/number VINs are mandatory as those pages can become huge enough to cause slowdowns on the wiki while editing. This newly discovered practice of getting Blue Bird VINs mean a much bigger opportunity to fill in a lot of important missing pieces of info from one notable school bus builder having a somewhat obscure presence in the transit bus industry.

9 hours ago, MiExpress said:

As for the New Flyer VIN pages I can see the merits to both suggestions and am indifferent; but will point out having both model years (in your example, 1992 and 2022) on the same page not only simplifies linking but makes the template less cluttered. Since New Flyer pages aren't long to start with and New Flyer was not manufacturing as many buses in the 1980s and 1990s, page length is not really a concern here.

My replies/thoughts to the entire conversation are going here, so these are not direct replies to just your post. I'm very big on future-proofing on the Wiki, or basically minimizing the amount of changes that will need to be done down the road. As such, I'd rather find a solution that will work for future years, and not just be a band-aid solution for today that will require even larger fixes in the future.

I feel like stuffing two production years onto one page is not a good solution for this reason. Although 30 years ago New Flyer may have been a relatively smaller producer, during the 1990s their production started to ramp up a lot, so a few years from now these multiple-years-in-one-page situations are going to need to accommodate two large production years, with all of the concerns on page size and editability that are listed as concerns above. Outside of the example of New Flyer, there are a few other manufacturers (looking specifically at you, MCI) that were major producers 30 years ago and are still today, so this issue is something that will be happening today under the multiple-years-in-one-page proposal.

In the interest of future-proofing, I'd propose a shift away from using the year letter code completely to just using the model year - i.e. it becomes "New Flyer Industries 2022 VINs" for manufacturers we choose to organize by model year. There can still be the option to organize other manufacturers by series when it makes sense to do so (i.e. Gillig) and those can be tackled on a case-by-case basis.

For Blue Bird, I say any info is good info, provided there's someone able and willing to enter and update it. So if we have a reputable source to get VIN information from, all the better to add it! By adding it here it will also help preserve the info in case Blue Bird ever decides to take that off of their website, which they are likely to do at some point through a webpage update or redesign.

@MiExpress I definitely hear and share your concern over the New Flyer template - ideally once all the various models are collapsed into one set of pages (it seems like we're already pretty close to this point) then redesigning the template away from listing the individual models to focus on production years would be preferable. I like the design of the ElDorado National template (tooting my own horn a little bit more than I'd like here) and would be keen to replicate it for other manufacturers.

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I do agree with you comments about 'future proofing' and from that viewpoint would support having each production year on it's own page. In addition, with some MCI and ADL models beginning to share the New Flyer VIN/serial sequence the New Flyer pages will become longer over time as those are additional models that will be added to the page and in the case of MCI, a lot of small bus orders.

Going back to my comments about Blue Bird as I do have some other thoughts to add; however to clarify I have no objections to adding the VINs using the "Blue Bird Vantage" link that was posted. However, buses sharing the same serial sequence (last 5-6 digits) should be grouped together and split by either model year or serial range, whatever works best. I cannot agree on splitting by purely model unless said model has it's own, distinct serial sequence.

While there is a lot of useful information on that Blue Bird link posted it may differ from how we consider information on wiki. For one, the build dates we input are based on the actual builders plate in the bus, while in the case of the "Blue Bird Vantage" website the build dates differ and are likely production dates. As an example, Brantford Transit 10045 has a build date of November 2004 on the build plate however the "Blue Bird Vantage" site lists the build date as October 25, 2004. 

In addition, while the delivery dates on the wiki are based on when a bus was actually delivered to the transit agency there is a good chance the delivery dates listed on the "Blue Bird Vantage" site may end up being a factory ship date and/or dealer delivery date as Blue Bird buses, including transit buses, were sold by dealers and not a direct sales channel.

Note that with the last 2 paragraphs I am not trying to litigate what information should or shouldn't be included in the wiki, just that the information supplied by Blue Bird may differ from how we have traditionally handled it in the past.

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  • 3 months later...
  • 5 months later...

I'd like to bring up the serial issue for Vicinities, much in the manner of Gillig discussed above. It might make sense to switch to a serial-based VIN page.

Similar to Gillig, VMC (or GW) no longer really assign serials in order somewhere around 2017. For example, the below list of consecutive serials has been compiled from wiki data:
- [...] Many other 2017 units
- HA098212 to HA098214: 2017 BC Transit 4062-4064
- MA098215 to MA098216: 2021 Keolis 221-901 and 221-910
- _A098217 to _A098220: Unknown/Unassigned
- NA098221: 2022 Transbus 1256
- _A098222 to _A098223: Unknown/Unassigned
- MA098224 to MA098225: 2021 Keolis 221-909 and 221-903
- _A098226 to _A098230: Unknown/Unassigned
- MA098231 to MA098232: 2021 Keolis 221-906 and 221-908
- NA098233: 2022 Transbus 1257
- MA098234 to MA098237: 2021 Keolis 221-911, 221-913, 221-905 and 221-907
- NA098238: 2022 Transbus 1258
- HA098239 to HA098241: 2017 BC Transit 4065-4067
- HA098242 to HA098245: 2017 Saskatoon 1816-1819
- [...] Many other 2017 BC Transit units

As one can see from the above example, this range of VIN has units from 2017 to 2022, and later VINs are similarly disordered. I've gathered around the informations available on the wiki, and here's a spreadsheet of all the Vicinities, ordered by serial number: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rXVifWchts7g5vDrpKqqze5GnzcB5NX_4gI_Gt6ZShU/edit?usp=sharing. I'd like to know what everyone thinks about this issue. 

===

Regarding the repeating model year issue, if I gather the solution taken here is the older pages have 'model_number N VINs' names (i.e. "NFI N VINs" vs "NFI D40 N VINs"). I'd just like to point out it won't work for Nova, as the LFS has been in production for almost 30 years now (the first LFS demo has R, or 1994 VINs).

Also, I'm not sure why the "Model_year VINs" are both in single quote, i.e. NFI 'N VINs'. My uneducated opinion says it should read NFI 'N' VINs instead.

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1 hour ago, Frozen Yogurt said:

I'd like to bring up the serial issue for Vicinities, much in the manner of Gillig discussed above. It might make sense to switch to a serial-based VIN page.

Similar to Gillig, VMC (or GW) no longer really assign serials in order somewhere around 2017. For example, the below list of consecutive serials has been compiled from wiki data:
- [...] Many other 2017 units
- HA098212 to HA098214: 2017 BC Transit 4062-4064
- MA098215 to MA098216: 2021 Keolis 221-901 and 221-910
- _A098217 to _A098220: Unknown/Unassigned
- NA098221: 2022 Transbus 1256
- _A098222 to _A098223: Unknown/Unassigned
- MA098224 to MA098225: 2021 Keolis 221-909 and 221-903
- _A098226 to _A098230: Unknown/Unassigned
- MA098231 to MA098232: 2021 Keolis 221-906 and 221-908
- NA098233: 2022 Transbus 1257
- MA098234 to MA098237: 2021 Keolis 221-911, 221-913, 221-905 and 221-907
- NA098238: 2022 Transbus 1258
- HA098239 to HA098241: 2017 BC Transit 4065-4067
- HA098242 to HA098245: 2017 Saskatoon 1816-1819
- [...] Many other 2017 BC Transit units

As one can see from the above example, this range of VIN has units from 2017 to 2022, and later VINs are similarly disordered. I've gathered around the informations available on the wiki, and here's a spreadsheet of all the Vicinities, ordered by serial number: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rXVifWchts7g5vDrpKqqze5GnzcB5NX_4gI_Gt6ZShU/edit?usp=sharing. I'd like to know what everyone thinks about this issue. 

===

Regarding the repeating model year issue, if I gather the solution taken here is the older pages have 'model_number N VINs' names (i.e. "NFI N VINs" vs "NFI D40 N VINs"). I'd just like to point out it won't work for Nova, as the LFS has been in production for almost 30 years now (the first LFS demo has R, or 1994 VINs).

Also, I'm not sure why the "Model_year VINs" are both in single quote, i.e. NFI 'N VINs'. My uneducated opinion says it should read NFI 'N' VINs instead.

I do agree with you in a way, but I will point out that this may be a one time-abnormality. The serials that appear out of order were because they were originally assigned for 2017-2018 buses projected to be built for the US Market through Alliance Bus Group (Vicinity US dealer at the time). The orders never materialized, buses never got built so the serials ended up getting reused for later bus orders. Now that all those serials have been mostly filled they've gone back to having the serials in sequence for recent deliveries.

I'm not arguing against your concern, it's a valid one but perhaps one that given the context should wait a little bit and see if recent deliveries continue a consistent serial order/sequence.

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16 hours ago, MiExpress said:

I do agree with you in a way, but I will point out that this may be a one time-abnormality. The serials that appear out of order were because they were originally assigned for 2017-2018 buses projected to be built for the US Market through Alliance Bus Group (Vicinity US dealer at the time). The orders never materialized, buses never got built so the serials ended up getting reused for later bus orders. Now that all those serials have been mostly filled they've gone back to having the serials in sequence for recent deliveries.

I'm not arguing against your concern, it's a valid one but perhaps one that given the context should wait a little bit and see if recent deliveries continue a consistent serial order/sequence.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of the Alliance deal. Now things are more clear. I agree we can wait and see then.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 1/31/2022 at 7:25 PM, Articulated said:

In the interest of future-proofing, I'd propose a shift away from using the year letter code completely to just using the model year - i.e. it becomes "New Flyer Industries 2022 VINs" for manufacturers we choose to organize by model year. There can still be the option to organize other manufacturers by series when it makes sense to do so (i.e. Gillig) and those can be tackled on a case-by-case basis.

 

On 1/31/2022 at 10:11 PM, MiExpress said:

I do agree with you comments about 'future proofing' and from that viewpoint would support having each production year on it's own page. In addition, with some MCI and ADL models beginning to share the New Flyer VIN/serial sequence the New Flyer pages will become longer over time as those are additional models that will be added to the page and in the case of MCI, a lot of small bus orders.

 

Bit of a late reply (busy with work and life - limited editing time), but I'm seeing merits in this arrangement having each production year on it's own page. I think its the best option going forward.

I possibly may be starting to consolidate the MCI pages (as time permits). I could give this a try and see how it flows/works.

 

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I hate to be this guy.... and I do see the colors thing discussed above... but why don't we use the thick black lines to separate orders? I just spent half an hour attempting to get colors right on a page. I don't think I actually do have it right completely but I'm kinda at my wits end screwing with it. I could have the lines there in 30 seconds or less of copy and paste. It makes me less likely to contribute and I highly doubt I'm alone there. Note that I am not trying to ruffle feathers but I do have a lot of information to contribute. I am a full time driver working 10 hours most days. Spending inordinate amounts of time changing colors in place of entering information seems to be a ridiculous waste of time that for me is in limited supply.

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On 12/5/2022 at 9:24 PM, Kevin L said:

 

Bit of a late reply (busy with work and life - limited editing time), but I'm seeing merits in this arrangement having each production year on it's own page. I think its the best option going forward.

I possibly may be starting to consolidate the MCI pages (as time permits). I could give this a try and see how it flows/works.

 

Two thoughts - as an example, if we are going to name the pages with the year rather than the year code (2022 vs 'N' as an example) could we leave the preamble the same to indicate that only 'N' VINs should be on that page so people aren't adding 2023 model year buses built in 2022 to that page.

Also MCI buses are starting to be built with serial numbers that fall into the New Flyer sequence and this will increase as production of certain models is consolidated at existing New Flyer plants (same for future ADL buses built in North America). Since the goal is to have buses in the same serial sequence together, I would like to propose that these serials be put on the New Flyer VIN page with the MCI model noted in the model column. MCI and ADL are NFI group companies so there would be no name changes required. 

58 minutes ago, ns8401 said:

I hate to be this guy.... and I do see the colors thing discussed above... but why don't we use the thick black lines to separate orders? I just spent half an hour attempting to get colors right on a page. I don't think I actually do have it right completely but I'm kinda at my wits end screwing with it. I could have the lines there in 30 seconds or less of copy and paste. It makes me less likely to contribute and I highly doubt I'm alone there. Note that I am not trying to ruffle feathers but I do have a lot of information to contribute. I am a full time driver working 10 hours most days. Spending inordinate amounts of time changing colors in place of entering information seems to be a ridiculous waste of time that for me is in limited supply.

No need to be that "guy" because I completely agree with you, constantly having to change the colours was one of many reasons I started the thread in the first place. It was discussed agreed that the colours separating orders would be eliminated completely as pages get updated to new formats, here's an example of a updated page: https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/New_Flyer_Industries_'7_VINs'

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38 minutes ago, MiExpress said:

Two thoughts - as an example, if we are going to name the pages with the year rather than the year code (2022 vs 'N' as an example) could we leave the preamble the same to indicate that only 'N' VINs should be on that page so people aren't adding 2023 model year buses built in 2022 to that page.

Also MCI buses are starting to be built with serial numbers that fall into the New Flyer sequence and this will increase as production of certain models is consolidated at existing New Flyer plants (same for future ADL buses built in North America). Since the goal is to have buses in the same serial sequence together, I would like to propose that these serials be put on the New Flyer VIN page with the MCI model noted in the model column. MCI and ADL are NFI group companies so there would be no name changes required. 

No need to be that "guy" because I completely agree with you, constantly having to change the colours was one of many reasons I started the thread in the first place. It was discussed agreed that the colours separating orders would be eliminated completely as pages get updated to new formats, here's an example of a updated page: https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/New_Flyer_Industries_'7_VINs'

Interesting... The page I was updating was for 2023 MCI J4500's. I would have thought that one would have been in the new format just because it's so recent.

https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/Motor_Coach_Industries_J4500_'P_VINs'

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21 hours ago, MiExpress said:

Two thoughts - as an example, if we are going to name the pages with the year rather than the year code (2022 vs 'N' as an example) could we leave the preamble the same to indicate that only 'N' VINs should be on that page so people aren't adding 2023 model year buses built in 2022 to that page.

Something like New Flyer Industries 2022 VINs as an example?

21 hours ago, MiExpress said:

Also MCI buses are starting to be built with serial numbers that fall into the New Flyer sequence and this will increase as production of certain models is consolidated at existing New Flyer plants (same for future ADL buses built in North America). Since the goal is to have buses in the same serial sequence together, I would like to propose that these serials be put on the New Flyer VIN page with the MCI model noted in the model column. MCI and ADL are NFI group companies so there would be no name changes required. 

I think that would be a good idea.

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