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TTC Orion VII Retirements Tracking


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With the end of the Orion hybrids coming up fairly soon, I was wondering, has the TTC been able to extract any more reliability out of them compared to in their early days? Anecdotally, I rarely seem to see any dead by the side of the road anymore, and whenever I go out to photo any specific units (chiefly Malvern's Frankenbuses - all of which are superb) they always seem to last the length of their shift, but this could be because there are much less of them around now and they have had ample opportunity to put the least healthy units out to pasture. Is this just chance or has the MDBF improved in any material way?

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5 hours ago, T3G said:

With the end of the Orion hybrids coming up fairly soon, I was wondering, has the TTC been able to extract any more reliability out of them compared to in their early days? Anecdotally, I rarely seem to see any dead by the side of the road anymore, and whenever I go out to photo any specific units (chiefly Malvern's Frankenbuses - all of which are superb) they always seem to last the length of their shift, but this could be because there are much less of them around now and they have had ample opportunity to put the least healthy units out to pasture. Is this just chance or has the MDBF improved in any material way?

The Lithium battery upgrade improved them significantly as most people know. Unfortunately 16+ years of use in our climate and on our roads has taken its toll on the components that were never replaced during the rebuilds (all the interior wiring, multiplex modules, high voltage battery cables, differential banjo housings etc). The spray used to disinfect during covid also did a number on some of the interior and electrical components. The lack of parts availability due to covid and the natural course of planned obsolescence that every vehicle eventually encounters have resulted in as you mentioned "putting the least heathy units out to pasture" to keep the others going. The whole MDBF has been like an old school scale tipping back and forth. The Hybrid portion used to keep it down but now all the other things have balanced it and are now pulling down in the other direction.  

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4 minutes ago, Toro said:

Lots of rumors speculate that 8208 would be the first ng diesel to retire after its collision. I'm assuming it's going to be fixed but realistically is this wishful thinking?

Well, it is 14 years old, and new vehicles are on they way -so draw your own conclusion.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/28/2022 at 7:16 PM, ttc.transit said:

Does anyone have any updates on 1202? It’s been sitting around at Mount Dennis for nearly a month now. It’s either getting new plates, waiting for MTO inspection, waiting for a part or possibly retired. The traction motor sounded pretty awful the last time I heard it.

Here is a photo of 1202, it has a new plate now. Glad to see it’s back

AF328BC5-2C98-4BC6-9562-D57ED125566A.jpeg

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  • 1 month later...

8042 is taped shut and is doing a final run on 15 Evans right now

8063 is taped shut and has already done its final run, awaiting to be stripped or offloaded

8065 is retired

7940 is taped shut and ready to do its last run anyday now

7923 is taped shut and will likely re-enter service for the last time anyway now

7921 might be gone

7915 is stripped

7953 (Covid bus) is also retired

The airport buses (8000-8011) will be decommissioned by the end of the year to early 2023.

 

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39 minutes ago, CXW3LL said:

8042 is taped shut and is doing a final run on 15 Evans right now

8063 is taped shut and has already done its final run, awaiting to be stripped or offloaded

8065 is retired

7940 is taped shut and ready to do its last run anyday now

7923 is taped shut and will likely re-enter service for the last time anyway now

7921 might be gone

7915 is stripped

7953 (Covid bus) is also retired

The airport buses (8000-8011) will be decommissioned by the end of the year to early 2023.

 

And where are you getting this information from 

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2 hours ago, CXW3LL said:

8042 is taped shut and is doing a final run on 15 Evans right now

8063 is taped shut and has already done its final run, awaiting to be stripped or offloaded

8065 is retired

7940 is taped shut and ready to do its last run anyday now

7923 is taped shut and will likely re-enter service for the last time anyway now

7921 might be gone

7915 is stripped

7953 (Covid bus) is also retired

The airport buses (8000-8011) will be decommissioned by the end of the year to early 2023.

 

 

1 hour ago, Young said:

And where are you getting this information from 

 

47 minutes ago, wheelindealin said:

Who the hell are you and why should be believe anything you have to say?

First of all, where the hell did you get this info? @ttc.transit Or @bus_7246 care to explain?

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The Orion Vii ISL buses are beginning the end of their era in service, more retirements are planned and more novas are supposed to move to Queensway. This is in preparation for the new buses supposed to come early next year and we can expect 2/3s of the Orion Vii ISL fleet gone by the time they arrive with Queensway being a nova majority division. Extra sulprus buses from McNicoll, Birchmount and arrow road will be provided to Queensway and Wilson divisions to stabilize the garage fleet and will return to normal as the new buses enter service next year. With constant extra costs keeping these buses maintained much more than regular ttc deemed it was not worth keeping them any longer and started the retirement process roughly a few months earlier -According to fleet planner and the management at hillcrest btw

1 minute ago, CXW3LL said:

The Orion Vii ISL buses are beginning the end of their era in service, more retirements are planned and more novas are supposed to move to Queensway. This is in preparation for the new buses supposed to come early next year and we can expect 2/3s of the Orion Vii ISL fleet gone by the time they arrive with Queensway being a nova majority division. Extra sulprus buses from McNicoll, Birchmount and arrow road will be provided to Queensway and Wilson divisions to stabilize the garage fleet and will return to normal as the new buses enter service next year. According to fleet planner and the management at hillcrest btw

@Kumiko Oumae @Young

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9 minutes ago, CXW3LL said:

The Orion Vii ISL buses are beginning the end of their era in service, more retirements are planned and more novas are supposed to move to Queensway. This is in preparation for the new buses supposed to come early next year and we can expect 2/3s of the Orion Vii ISL fleet gone by the time they arrive with Queensway being a nova majority division. Extra sulprus buses from McNicoll, Birchmount and arrow road will be provided to Queensway and Wilson divisions to stabilize the garage fleet and will return to normal as the new buses enter service next year. With constant extra costs keeping these buses maintained much more than regular ttc deemed it was not worth keeping them any longer and started the retirement process roughly a few months earlier -According to fleet planner and the management at hillcrest btw

@Kumiko Oumae @Young

Which management at hillcrest 🤔

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12 minutes ago, CXW3LL said:

The Orion Vii ISL buses are beginning the end of their era in service, more retirements are planned and more novas are supposed to move to Queensway. This is in preparation for the new buses supposed to come early next year and we can expect 2/3s of the Orion Vii ISL fleet gone by the time they arrive with Queensway being a nova majority division. Extra sulprus buses from McNicoll, Birchmount and arrow road will be provided to Queensway and Wilson divisions to stabilize the garage fleet and will return to normal as the new buses enter service next year. With constant extra costs keeping these buses maintained much more than regular ttc deemed it was not worth keeping them any longer and started the retirement process roughly a few months earlier -According to fleet planner and the management at hillcrest btw

@Kumiko Oumae @Young

This is in preparation for the new buses supposed to come early next year”


TTCs order doesn’t start at new flyer for another 8-10 months. Not sure why you said “early next year”

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8000-8011 will be replaced by a few novas and regular ISL buses when they retire for the time being but will eventually become a full nova route as is would the other Queensway routes tho I hear that Wilson is also listed as a supplier for Queensway so their may be NG's and 3G's for a short time as well

 

Also eventually Queensway is supposed to get a very small number of articulated buses probably after the new ones come

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2 hours ago, CXW3LL said:

8000-8011 will be replaced by a few novas and regular ISL buses when they retire for the time being but will eventually become a full nova route as is would the other Queensway routes tho I hear that Wilson is also listed as a supplier for Queensway so their may be NG's and 3G's for a short time as well

 

Also eventually Queensway is supposed to get a very small number of articulated buses probably after the new ones come

 

Word to the wise: if you are trying to build a forum reputation, attacking established forumers is not the ideal way to do it. Doing so damages your credibility, which is exactly what you need for your assertions to be taken seriously.

As for your allegations, it is logical that as the time for the arrival of the newest buses arrives, the TTC will retire the least healthy ones and part them out to keep the balance of the fleet going. However, 2/3rds of the fleet being gone before their replacements even arrive does not sound credible in the slightest.

As for the NGs and 3Gs, height clearance issues at Queensway garage preclude either of these from going there. IF anything from Wilson were to cover for Queensway it would be the 8100s, which are more or less identical under the hood to the 7900s and 8000s.

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44 minutes ago, T3G said:

Word to the wise: if you are trying to build a forum reputation, attacking established forumers is not the ideal way to do it. Doing so damages your credibility, which is exactly what you need for your assertions to be taken seriously.

As for your allegations, it is logical that as the time for the arrival of the newest buses arrives, the TTC will retire the least healthy ones and part them out to keep the balance of the fleet going. However, 2/3rds of the fleet being gone before their replacements even arrive does not sound credible in the slightest.

As for the NGs and 3Gs, height clearance issues at Queensway garage preclude either of these from going there. IF anything from Wilson were to cover for Queensway it would be the 8100s, which are more or less identical under the hood to the 7900s and 8000s.

One additional point:

....why exactly would TTC focus on retiring the ISL OGs before the less reliable hybrids (especially the NGs)? That doesn't seem logical to me considering the ISLs are less problematic.

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52 minutes ago, OC Transpo/STO Fan said:

One additional point:

....why exactly would TTC focus on retiring the ISL OGs before the less reliable hybrids (especially the NGs)? That doesn't seem logical to me considering the ISLs are less problematic.

The 79s are slightly older than the VII HEVs, but only by a couple of months. There are multiple factors at play amongst the three (four?) series being retired which complicates things. Diesels may be slightly more reliable in some regards, but they're still old. There is also a faction that is keen to retire full diesel buses over hybrids for environmental reasons.

Overall though, the TTC will likely retire buses from all three series like they usually do: whichever are in worst condition will go first. Doesn't matter whether it's a 79/80, VII HEV, or NG HEV, if it's on the list to go and has an expensive failure it'll be gone. All three series have multiple buses already retired due to failures, so this is not a new concept.

With the volume of buses coming in (and the lack of extra storage space in garages) retirements will probably happen fast and furious once deliveries get underway, by which point it won't really matter which bus is retiring based on what new bus enters service. Movements between divisions will also likely be a thing so that complicates the factor.

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They aren’t that reliable either. A lot of maintenance  happens towards all the units and many shift back and forth from Hillcrest, more than any other bus fleet.  If you compare them to the NG and 3G buses those are much more reliable and almost always the entire fleet is at Wilson and in service so….but wouldn’t make sense for them to get rid of most of the 7900s and 8000s before new buses come either 

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10 hours ago, CXW3LL said:

The Orion Vii ISL buses are beginning the end of their era in service, more retirements are planned and more novas are supposed to move to Queensway. This is in preparation for the new buses supposed to come early next year and we can expect 2/3s of the Orion Vii ISL fleet gone by the time they arrive with Queensway being a nova majority division. Extra sulprus buses from McNicoll, Birchmount and arrow road will be provided to Queensway and Wilson divisions to stabilize the garage fleet and will return to normal as the new buses enter service next year. With constant extra costs keeping these buses maintained much more than regular ttc deemed it was not worth keeping them any longer and started the retirement process roughly a few months earlier -According to fleet planner and the management at hillcrest btw

@Kumiko Oumae @Young

Lmao I call troll

10 hours ago, CXW3LL said:

8000-8011 will be replaced by a few novas and regular ISL buses when they retire for the time being but will eventually become a full nova route as is would the other Queensway routes tho I hear that Wilson is also listed as a supplier for Queensway so their may be NG's and 3G's for a short time as well

 

Also eventually Queensway is supposed to get a very small number of articulated buses probably after the new ones come

How to NOT trick people!

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15 hours ago, Articulated said:

The 79s are slightly older than the VII HEVs, but only by a couple of months. There are multiple factors at play amongst the three (four?) series being retired which complicates things. Diesels may be slightly more reliable in some regards, but they're still old. There is also a faction that is keen to retire full diesel buses over hybrids for environmental reasons.

Overall though, the TTC will likely retire buses from all three series like they usually do: whichever are in worst condition will go first. Doesn't matter whether it's a 79/80, VII HEV, or NG HEV, if it's on the list to go and has an expensive failure it'll be gone. All three series have multiple buses already retired due to failures, so this is not a new concept.

With the volume of buses coming in (and the lack of extra storage space in garages) retirements will probably happen fast and furious once deliveries get underway, by which point it won't really matter which bus is retiring based on what new bus enters service. Movements between divisions will also likely be a thing so that complicates the factor.

And since we now supposedly entered this new chapter, what will be happening with ES-0 - ES-5, 7937, 7950? Will they spend another 3-5 or a year with TTC or will they be gone around the same time as well?

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8 minutes ago, The Queensway said:

 

And since we now supposedly entered this new chapter, what will be happening with ES-0 - ES-5, 7937, 7950? Will they spend another 3-5 or a year with TTC or will they be gone around the same time as well?

They’ll likely go with the rest of the fleet. Maintenance and parts will be a big issue if they have to train people to maintain and drive a few special buses around and hunt for parts when they break.

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1 hour ago, Xtrazsteve said:

They’ll likely go with the rest of the fleet. Maintenance and parts will be a big issue if they have to train people to maintain and drive a few special buses around and hunt for parts when they break.

No, no it won’t.

They’re not that different from the 8100s that came after, and Dinex only changed their multiplex hardware in 2012 with the 8300 order.

Everything before that to 7400 was interchangeable with a software upload.

Chassis mechanical underpinnings remained unchanged throughout the entire Orion 7 production run.

I’d give it easily 5 years before parts scarcity will become a headache, even longer if they cannibalize and stockpile unique parts.

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