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2020 (-2023) Articulated 60' Bus Procurement

Express691

By Express691
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Express691

Express691

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The scope of work is linked from the bids and opportunities site. https://service.ariba.com/Discovery.aw/125009033/aw?awh=r&awssk=9CMSo3kW&awrdt=1#

Key pointers: 
1) Base order is for 55 units by mid-2021
2) Option orders:

  • 30 units by end of 2021
  • 20 units by end of 2022
  • 20 units by end of 2023

3) Liveries are Standard BlueTop or RapidBus 
4) New Features:

  • Passenger Stop Request System – electronic push strips along base of passenger windows to replace current requirement of pull cords. 
  • USB Ports - USB charge port (with sacrificial pigtail for easy repair) to be installed in a location easily accessible to passengers. Each USB charge port per seat will require overcurrent protection.
  • Wi-Fi System – Installation of 3rd party vendor supplied equipment and cabling for TransLink’s WiFi system (see reference document Preliminary WiFi Design Requirements for details).
  • Charge Plug Location (applicable to Electric Bus only) - Combined Charging System (CCS) plug-in charge port on the street-side of the Vehicle in addition to the curb-side charge port.

=================
Discussion pointers:
0) We do not know what yards these buses are going to... yet. However, Marpole Transit Centre is scheduled to open for Fall 2023. That could be a possibility.
1) Unknown manufacturer, but I'm placing my money on NFI
2) Unknown propulsion, but it's hinted that battery electric may be an option. One can call it a stretch and say that more artic trolleys could potentially be an option
3) The May 2019 Mayor's Council meeting suggested 19 artics in 2020 and 30 artics in 2021. 

  • This is a change as 34 more artics are being purchased for 2020, bringing the total to 55. However, the artics in 2021 remain constant.
  • Observing the strike, I think it's possible that CMBC may want to lower driver requirements and increase capacity instead of frequency.

4) I actually don't think the transition away from pull cords isn't too bad since we've had stop buttons since 2000/2001.

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Dane

Dane

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Try this link: https://service.ariba.com/Discovery.aw/ad/viewRFX?id=7536156

1 hour ago, Express691 said:


2) Unknown propulsion, but it's hinted that battery electric may be an option. One can call it a stretch and say that more artic trolleys could potentially be an option

  • Observing the strike, I think it's possible that CMBC may want to lower driver requirements and increase capacity instead of frequency.

 

This RFI is certainly not for trolley buses. These are documents which require a certain degree of specificity for manufacturers to be able to bid in good faith. Nothing in this RFI includes anything about external infrastructure or specialized equipment external to the vehicle. The only "stretch" would be CNG (as it is an existing capacity that doesn't make the vehicle limited to specialty infrastructure)... battery & trolley wouldn't fall into this document as it is presented. 

Your comment about lowering driver requirements seems like a strech. Has Translink said or done anything to make you believe that? This RFI seems well inline with what someone could expect to be the purchasing behaviour of Translink based on the last decade, and with an expending RapidBus network. 

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translink

translink

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1 hour ago, Express691 said:

The scope of work is linked from the bids and opportunities site. https://service.ariba.com/Discovery.aw/125009033/aw?awh=r&awssk=9CMSo3kW&awrdt=1#

Key pointers: 
1) Base order is for 55 units by mid-2021
2) Option orders:

  • 30 units by end of 2021
  • 20 units by end of 2022
  • 20 units by end of 2023

3) Liveries are Standard BlueTop or RapidBus 
4) New Features:

  • Passenger Stop Request System – electronic push strips along base of passenger windows to replace current requirement of pull cords. 
  • USB Ports - USB charge port (with sacrificial pigtail for easy repair) to be installed in a location easily accessible to passengers. Each USB charge port per seat will require overcurrent protection.
  • Wi-Fi System – Installation of 3rd party vendor supplied equipment and cabling for TransLink’s WiFi system (see reference document Preliminary WiFi Design Requirements for details).
  • Charge Plug Location (applicable to Electric Bus only) - Combined Charging System (CCS) plug-in charge port on the street-side of the Vehicle in addition to the curb-side charge port.

=================
Discussion pointers:
0) We do not know what yards these buses are going to... yet. However, Marpole Transit Centre is scheduled to open for Fall 2023. That could be a possibility.
1) Unknown manufacturer, but I'm placing my money on NFI
2) Unknown propulsion, but it's hinted that battery electric may be an option. One can call it a stretch and say that more artic trolleys could potentially be an option
3) The May 2019 Mayor's Council meeting suggested 19 artics in 2020 and 30 artics in 2021. 

  • This is a change as 34 more artics are being purchased for 2020, bringing the total to 55. However, the artics in 2021 remain constant.
  • Observing the strike, I think it's possible that CMBC may want to lower driver requirements and increase capacity instead of frequency.

4) I actually don't think the transition away from pull cords isn't too bad since we've had stop buttons since 2000/2001.

Post away

I’m gonna play devils advocate and say NovaBus. If only for something different. Realistically, it’ll probably be New Flyer. In terms of depot... honestly... I’d love to see them in HTC/MTC. (Seeing that M prefix will look very strange) . Something I’d like to see are CNG artics. But the stop request strip... I haven’t seen those since the D40LFs. ? They were always in the disabled section. Sometimes they worked... often times not. ? Man... this RFP is a little different. It’s like going to a convention, asking an artist to draw... whatever just based off some text you wrote at 3am the night before. And other than colours, and some ideas, you’re not really sure of anything else. “Have at it and surprise me!” ?

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8010

8010

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8 hours ago, translink said:

I’m gonna play devils advocate and say NovaBus. If only for something different. Realistically, it’ll probably be New Flyer. In terms of depot... honestly... I’d love to see them in HTC/MTC. (Seeing that M prefix will look very strange) . Something I’d like to see are CNG artics. 

My guess is XDE60s or XN60s for HTC and STC for the two RapidBus routes, but most likely XDE60s as there's no point in switching to a different propulsion. (I really hope we don't end up getting Nova Artics)

As for the whole battery-electric discussion, it certainly is possible as TL would have to put in another RFI for the chargers and any other external equipment needed for those buses. There was a BYD K11M at BTC not too long ago.

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GORDOOM

GORDOOM

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11 hours ago, Dane said:

This RFI is certainly not for trolley buses. These are documents which require a certain degree of specificity for manufacturers to be able to bid in good faith. Nothing in this RFI includes anything about external infrastructure or specialized equipment external to the vehicle. The only "stretch" would be CNG (as it is an existing capacity that doesn't make the vehicle limited to specialty infrastructure)... battery & trolley wouldn't fall into this document as it is presented. 

But that doesn’t prevent NFI from offering XT60s or XTE60s as an unsolicited option. TL is totally within their rights to authorize variances from the spec, even on something as substantial as an entirely different propulsion system. (It also doesn’t prevent TL and NFI from negotiating changes later on: same number of coaches, but different propulsion systems and TL pays the difference in cost. We did that a few years ago to get more E60LFRs.)

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Dane

Dane

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5 hours ago, GORDOOM said:

But that doesn’t prevent NFI from offering XT60s or XTE60s as an unsolicited option. TL is totally within their rights to authorize variances from the spec, even on something as substantial as an entirely different propulsion system. (It also doesn’t prevent TL and NFI from negotiating changes later on: same number of coaches, but different propulsion systems and TL pays the difference in cost. We did that a few years ago to get more E60LFRs.)

PubLic entities in BC can't purchase unsolicited bids, and a trolley couldn't even become an accepted bid in the first place. 

The E60 thing was a modification of an existing contract and got some sourced which in itself is a process. 

 

--

 

Terrible typo hahahaha

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Express691

Express691

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2 hours ago, Dane said:

Pubic entities 

Sorry, what entities?

4 hours ago, GORDOOM said:

We did that a few years ago to get more E60LFRs.)

Sorry, how long ago?

==========

All joking aside, my statement earlier about increased capacity was under the assumption that the initial 49 buses total for 2020/2021 was enough to fulfill the rapidbus expansions for the next few years. However, yeah - considering the sheer amount of rapidbus proposals for 2021 (I believe 4-5 routes are in planning stage), it does justify purchasing dozens more units.

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GORDOOM

GORDOOM

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4 hours ago, Dane said:

PubLic entities in BC can't purchase unsolicited bids, and a trolley couldn't even become an accepted bid in the first place.

“Proponents are encouraged to use and incorporate innovative and creative elements in their proposed design and engineering of the Work that meet the requirements of the Specifications. Proponents may include different or additional specifications to those set out in this RFP provided that any such changes to, or non-compliance with, the Specifications are clearly identified, technically acceptable to TransLink and supported by the Proponent.”

IOW there is nothing stopping a proponent from proposing as an option a change to the specifications calling for the use of trolley poles as current collectors for a battery-electric bus. TL can accept or reject such an option at its discretion under the terms of the current RFP.

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Dane

Dane

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7 minutes ago, GORDOOM said:

“Proponents are encouraged to use and incorporate innovative and creative elements in their proposed design and engineering of the Work that meet the requirements of the Specifications. Proponents may include different or additional specifications to those set out in this RFP provided that any such changes to, or non-compliance with, the Specifications are clearly identified, technically acceptable to TransLink and supported by the Proponent.”

IOW there is nothing stopping a proponent from proposing as an option a change to the specifications calling for the use of trolley poles as current collectors for a battery-electric bus. TL can accept or reject such an option at its discretion under the terms of the current RFP.

Yes, there is. 

 

The specifications, not available to us, will have some defined requirements. What we do know is that there is no infrastructure piece here. A use of overhead systems would initiate a second contract requirement. You don't need to agree with me, but you're painting a transit fan dream here. The BC Financial Administration Act doesn't allow for a purchase of something like a bus that would have a significant second order repercussion of needing another capital investment unless they're either contracted at the same time, or, there is a public notification of a second contract. That sentence you've quoted does not supersede in anyway TLs legal requirements to request for bids in a very standardized way - that line simply means TL is not beholden to just ordering more of exactly what they have now. 

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Express691

Express691

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Pandemic has come and passed for the most part.
The order is now for 55 articulated buses for both replacement and expansion.

The first unit is to arrive sometime between 2 and 6 weeks from now.

http://www.metrovancouver.org/boards/GVRD/RD_2021-Jun-25_AGE.pdf#search="bus procurement" info starts at page 550-ish.

Also had this photo sent to me by a close contact, was shot in Winnipeg.
Not my photo, CTTO
received_314921810337207.thumb.jpeg.305e6400aa8980296e760fe2c52deced.jpeg

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Express691

Express691

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1 hour ago, East Van Fan said:

Just out of curiousity: Which depot will the new artics be assigned to once they are fully assembled and tested?

Before saying anything, it is not known where exactly these artics will end up. However we can assume that there is some expansion going on which includes articulated buses.

=========

Not really confirming anything but there's strong evidence we might get artics on the 319 before artic implementation.

https://images.dailyhive.com/20210222145305/translink-bus-priority-measures-2020-2021-e1614034762332.jpg

The road projects for 2021 indicate that some stops on scott road were getting "filled in".

https://www.translink.ca/-/media/translink/documents/plans-and-projects/roads-bridges-and-goods-movement/2021_mfp_list_of_projects.pdf?fbclid=IwAR33Hal5WCLhOSASgSK-JvTOMDKsbgErNRhKjrLTDR1jxTKwDDk8nTg8Is4

There's also a rumour floating around which involves moving all STC shuttle work to HTC starting September, but take it with a grain of salt.

============

Some document in 2018/2019 specified that there would need to be a few extra buses on the 99 during construction.

============

Possible expansion could also include 240 (all-day artic service) and maybe 403.

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Xcelsior Bus Fan

Xcelsior Bus Fan

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On 12/15/2019 at 8:01 PM, Express691 said:

The scope of work is linked from the bids and opportunities site. https://service.ariba.com/Discovery.aw/125009033/aw?awh=r&awssk=9CMSo3kW&awrdt=1#

Key pointers: 
1) Base order is for 55 units by mid-2021
2) Option orders:

  • 30 units by end of 2021
  • 20 units by end of 2022
  • 20 units by end of 2023

3) Liveries are Standard BlueTop or RapidBus 
4) New Features:

  • Passenger Stop Request System – electronic push strips along base of passenger windows to replace current requirement of pull cords. 
  • USB Ports - USB charge port (with sacrificial pigtail for easy repair) to be installed in a location easily accessible to passengers. Each USB charge port per seat will require overcurrent protection.
  • Wi-Fi System – Installation of 3rd party vendor supplied equipment and cabling for TransLink’s WiFi system (see reference document Preliminary WiFi Design Requirements for details).
  • Charge Plug Location (applicable to Electric Bus only) - Combined Charging System (CCS) plug-in charge port on the street-side of the Vehicle in addition to the curb-side charge port.

=================
Discussion pointers:
0) We do not know what yards these buses are going to... yet. However, Marpole Transit Centre is scheduled to open for Fall 2023. That could be a possibility.
1) Unknown manufacturer, but I'm placing my money on NFI
2) Unknown propulsion, but it's hinted that battery electric may be an option. One can call it a stretch and say that more artic trolleys could potentially be an option
3) The May 2019 Mayor's Council meeting suggested 19 artics in 2020 and 30 artics in 2021. 

  • This is a change as 34 more artics are being purchased for 2020, bringing the total to 55. However, the artics in 2021 remain constant.
  • Observing the strike, I think it's possible that CMBC may want to lower driver requirements and increase capacity instead of frequency.

4) I actually don't think the transition away from pull cords isn't too bad since we've had stop buttons since 2000/2001.

Post away

Why only USB charge ports? My phone takes twice as long to charge on USB as compared to a 120v outlet. There are also phones out on the market that dont support USB charging. Many android phones I see on the market today only charge via 120v. Also there may be times when a passenger wants to charge something like a laptop on longer trips such as the 620 where they can only be charged via 120v. 
 

I’ve seen 120v outlets on city transit buses in other parts of Canada so its possible to have

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martin607

martin607

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On 12/16/2019 at 10:31 PM, Dane said:

Yes, there is. 

 

The specifications, not available to us, will have some defined requirements. What we do know is that there is no infrastructure piece here. A use of overhead systems would initiate a second contract requirement. You don't need to agree with me, but you're painting a transit fan dream here. The BC Financial Administration Act doesn't allow for a purchase of something like a bus that would have a significant second order repercussion of needing another capital investment unless they're either contracted at the same time, or, there is a public notification of a second contract. That sentence you've quoted does not supersede in anyway TLs legal requirements to request for bids in a very standardized way - that line simply means TL is not beholden to just ordering more of exactly what they have now. 

I accept that trolleybuses would be highly unlikely at this point, but I don't follow your argument that there's "no infrastructure piece here". If Translink wanted to order a batch of trolleybuses, there wouldn't be any need for new infrastructure. The overhead network is massive and there is spare electrical installed power on the system. So new battery-trolleybuses could be allocated to any diesel route that runs extensively under wires. Trolley R4 anyone?

Incidentally, New Flyer have at last produced new catalogue pages for the Xcelsior trolleybus. One interesting point is they have increased the size of the battery to 71kWh, giving 22 miles off-wire range for the XT 40 and over 15 miles for the XT60 - plenty of range for a trolley R4 to get from 41st to UBC and back. I'll post a link in the Vancouver trolleybuses thread.

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Dane

Dane

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Because in that specific case, from where I quoted originally for clarity, involved a suggestion of using infrastructure in a manner for which it isn't currently utilized. 

 

Trolley buses are unique enough an RFI would absolutely need to state "trolley".

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Express691

Express691

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2 hours ago, bob32189 said:

Given that these coaches appear to not be RapidBus units, is there any word yet on which depot(s) they will be going to?

If TransLink can get its Major Road Network upgrades for Scott Road on schedule (stop infills to accommodate artics), artics on the 319 seem likely. They will have moved all the shuttle work to HTC by the time September 6 rolls around.

As for which depot they'll enter service, it is unknown at this time. 

Honestly, if Hamilton can prove they can use them on the 410, I guess that can work as well.

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anyfong

anyfong

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20 hours ago, cleowin said:

I thought TL was ordering only electric vehicles moving forward. Xde60 is hybrid ?

I believe all-electric bus purchases begin in 2025. That said, NFI is still in the process of making the XE60 more mature for better range and battery life (which hopefully by then, NFI would also offer to replace the current trolleys with Xcelsior trolleys with A/C).

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GORDOOM

GORDOOM

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9 minutes ago, anyfong said:

which hopefully by then, NFI would also offer to replace the current trolleys with Xcelsior trolleys with A/C).

That tender should be coming in about three years or so: TL is assuming a 20-year service life for trolleybuses, and the production ExxLFRs were delivered 2006–08. Add a couple years for what is likely to be a semi-custom design, and you're looking at an RFP issued probably some time in 2024.

That said, there have been rumours that it might be moved ahead to get A/C-equipped trolleybuses sooner.

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