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STM 40-XXX Delivery Watch, Sightings and Discussions


Frozen Yogurt
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3 hours ago, Frozen Yogurt said:

I thought they said they wanted to evaluate the comfort or something along the line in their press release, so I don't really understand how they can assess things without passenger input. I was probably having too much hope about the STM caring about its riders for once I guess...

It will likely be the same as when ours in Ottawa enter service, the department in charge of monitoring its performance will ride the bus periodically throughout the various runs it’s on. But these newer buses ( nova and NFI ) have so much data capabilities they can tell exactly how it stops/starts, takes corners etc. having driven the XE40 myself I can tell you the passengers will notice a much smoother and eerily quiet ride and they lean a lot during corners but that’s really the only difference 

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On 12/16/2021 at 7:51 PM, Gerbil said:

I took 40-906 for a short ride on the 105 this morning. It was a very nice ride, however there was one glaring issue: the driver's plexiglass barrier swings outward when the front doors are closed to improve the driver's visibility (same as on the STL units). However this creates delays on a busy route like the 105, where people run after the bus: people get on and fumble around for their fare, and the driver can't close the door and leave until they have paid and crossed the yellow line. Hopefully they disable this feature.

So I actually take this run I had 40-906 on pretty regularly, and I can confirm that it was the regular driver at the wheel. Maybe they do the Batisse's in other cases though, 40-904 did a mixed assortment of 115 and 105 trips from different runs the other day.

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If the regular driver is part of the test group that got the training this summer, then it is possible. Only 40 or so drivers are actually trained on the units as of now.

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On 12/17/2021 at 10:23 PM, ZümmyZüm said:

But these newer buses ( nova and NFI ) have so much data capabilities they can tell exactly how it stops/starts, takes corners etc. 

I don't think you need to actually put passengers in the bus to evaluate the above remotely then... anyway, I don't know what exactly they're trying to test with passengers, but certainly not what I was hoping: the seating layout still sucks and the wraps are still blocking the windows. I hope OC buys something more decent than ours.

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8 hours ago, Frozen Yogurt said:

I don't think you need to actually put passengers in the bus to evaluate the above remotely then... anyway, I don't know what exactly they're trying to test with passengers, but certainly not what I was hoping: the seating layout still sucks and the wraps are still blocking the windows. I hope OC buys something more decent than ours.

Ultimately the same bus however OC always goes for as much seating as possible whereas the STM goes for capacity. Both have their pros and cons 

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On 12/22/2021 at 7:22 AM, ZümmyZüm said:

Ultimately the same bus however OC always goes for as much seating as possible whereas the STM goes for capacity. Both have their pros and cons 

That's the entire reason why I'm upset with the layout: contrary to what people think, your OC transpo buses end up having a higher passenger capacity due to their layout, and they're far more comfortable...

I think the figure below illustrates my whole point. I drew an LFS in there because that's what we're used to ride here in Montréal. Of course, it is not to scale, but I think gets the point across fairly well... bottom of the line is perimeter seating sucks and reduces the passenger capacity. Not only I say this, the TTC made a lengthy report more than a decade ago trying to make the exact same point that I'm getting across...

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Here is a pic of the back section of our Flyers. The gap between the seat back and the window is so large, I think even a human can fit in there.

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Anyway, the STM doesn't want to listen. All they care about is the appearance and the impression (and especially their image in the media), so I gave up trying to think reasonably.

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I believe with perimeter seating, the reason for the gap is for egress access. In the event of an emergency to be able to get safely out of the bus if the doors are blocked. The STM would not purposely diminish the standing room in the bus if their goal is cram as many people as possible. The Flyers in Mississauga and other places are the same where the seats face each other, so it is not an STM thing, but done by design.

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On 12/25/2021 at 3:32 AM, MTL66 said:

I believe with perimeter seating, the reason for the gap is for egress access. In the event of an emergency to be able to get safely out of the bus if the doors are blocked.

I took a look at more pictures again, and it seems like there are no emergency exits on the upper level on our XE40s, just like our LFSes. I do notice the seat edge is aligned with the (rear) wheel well: if the seats are placed closer to the wall, the person sitting above the wheel well will have to either stretch his/her legs out or put them above the wheel well, both of which aren't very nice postures.

It seems like somehow the wheel wells on the LFS is narrower than that on the Xcelsiors...

On 12/25/2021 at 3:32 AM, MTL66 said:

The STM would not purposely diminish the standing room in the bus if their goal is cram as many people as possible.

Well that's exactly what I was saying in my previous post: they want to cram as many people as possible, but there are other layouts which yield a even higher capacity, which they unfortunately didn't choose. The bonus is the higher capacity layout is actually more comfortable.

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Here's the report I was referring to: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2007/pg/bgrd/backgroundfile-3309.pdf. Note their findings:

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im just trying to prove what MTL66 has to say about it, which i 100% agree with

First of all, I don't know what you're agreeing with. Most of what MTL66 posted are statements, not opinions, and do not need to be proven in any way. Unless you're talking about the first sentence, where he asserts that the seats are away from the windows because of emergency exits, which I addressed above.

On 12/27/2021 at 10:24 PM, yikeslol said:

[...] i would like to also add the fact that you're complaining that the STM is using that layout, yet the STL is also using that layout in all of their buses since they got the 3rd gen novas as well (even their newest new flyer) as shown in the image below (1407's interior), but you are not complaining about the STL using the perimeter layout as well? You never mentioned anywhere that the STL is also using that layout but you blame the STM for using that layout, which further proves MTL66's point. Not only that, some bus owned by CITs/EXO (CIT des laurentides is a good example) is also using the perimeter layout, yet again, you're not complaining about them using it either.

And heres this as well, Even the STM's Classics used the perimeter layout as shown in image below, yet you are not complaining about it either. Should we blame the classic from using that layout as well?

This topic is about the 40 series at the STM. I do not have any reason to take the STL nor exo, and do not give a fudge about their seating layout. If they use perimeter seating, sucks for them. Same as the classics. I have never had the chance to step into one of them, so I cannot say anything about those at all.

And I can similarly show you many examples of other agencies who spec the exact same models we have, but with all forward seating layouts instead. 

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The Flyers in Mississauga and other places are the same where the seats face each other, so it is not an STM thing, but done by design.

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It is not done because stm wants it, it is done by design.

No, it is not done by design. This is far from the only layout you can put in an XE40, and the STM could have chosen something else. There are places that ordered XE40s with something other than perimeter seatings, such as Toronto (and perhaps soon OC).

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Googled and found this thumbnail of a video by Ontario transit. It is so clearly noticeable here that the sideways-facing seat will take so much more room once someone settles down on it.

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STM has an issue with their quality since the early 2010s, we all know that. But it is clearly not because of their use of the perimeter layout in their buses.

It is clearly because of their use of perimeter seating layout that I see 171s passing right in front of my face full to the front almost every single day. Do you notice people are actually reluctant to go to the back section? Because once a few people actually settle down on the seats in the rear section, they inevitable have to put their legs somewhere. Then the passengers boarding the bus will perceive the back as being "full" already and stop moving further back.

Anyway, that's the end of discussion about perimeter seating for me. You know what I think already so there's no point beating a dead horse.

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  • 1 month later...

This seems to have been the first day for XE40's to run on the weekend. Three of them went out: 40-906, 40-923 and 40-927, and they were on very long runs compared to weekdays.

I took 40-906 on the 105-E around noon.

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40-920 was doing the 15h13 departure of the 103 from Villa Maria Metro this afternoon. My first time on one. It did feel weird riding a STM bus that wasn't a LFS. By the way is that drivers barrier automatically operated when the front door opens / closes?

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