Misc. OC Transpo & STO Questions & Discussion

[tomsbuspage]

53 minutes ago, JCL said:

Remember, DDs were mainly purchased to be assigned to long-distance bus routes where they picked up passengers in a concentrated location and drop-off at a concentrated location. Over the years, DDs have gradually been put onto Transitway and mainline stop-and-go routes. 

I would say that the DDs have outlived their purpose on east-end peak-period routes, as most of them now end at Blair Station.  Once the west-end LRT lines open, I think the DDs would only be really useful on the Barrhaven or Southeast Transitway routes.

Just my .

[bsnider001]

On 2/27/2023 at 1:28 PM, tomsbuspage said:

I would say that the DDs have outlived their purpose on east-end peak-period routes, as most of them now end at Blair Station.  Once the west-end LRT lines open, I think the DDs would only be really useful on the Barrhaven or Southeast Transitway routes.

Just my .

Once stage 2 opens, I'd argue DD buses don't belong anywhere, except maybe the Connexion routes to/from Barrhaven. The 75 would be delayed to much by the dwell time at each stop. Remember, there are stops on Woodroffe between West Hunt Club Rd. and Algonquin College that Barrhaven Connexion routes skip, but the 75 (and 74) doesn't.

Kanata buses would only need to go one stop past Kanata (to/from Moodie Station), so they could survive with artics or probably even 40-footers, depending on the frequency of the affected routes. I could see artics on the 61, 62, and 63, with mostly 40-footers on the 64. But, no need for DD buses to/from Kanata on really any route. And, that's if the 64 sticks around... I still think Briarbrook and Morgan's Grant can survive with one bus...

[Dexter249]

22 hours ago, bsnider001 said:

Once stage 2 opens, I'd argue DD buses don't belong anywhere, except maybe the Connexion routes to/from Barrhaven. The 75 would be delayed to much by the dwell time at each stop. Remember, there are stops on Woodroffe between West Hunt Club Rd. and Algonquin College that Barrhaven Connexion routes skip, but the 75 (and 74) doesn't.

Kanata buses would only need to go one stop past Kanata (to/from Moodie Station), so they could survive with artics or probably even 40-footers, depending on the frequency of the affected routes. I could see artics on the 61, 62, and 63, with mostly 40-footers on the 64. But, no need for DD buses to/from Kanata on really any route. And, that's if the 64 sticks around... I still think Briarbrook and Morgan's Grant can survive with one bus...

Considering the Connexion routes are getting axed this summer, I think accelerated retirement of the DDs is coming, probably replaced by XE60s

[CanadianBrick1]

1 hour ago, Dexter249 said:

Considering the Connexion routes are getting axed this summer, I think accelerated retirement of the DDs is coming, probably replaced by XE60s

The Connexions are getting removed already? I must've missed alot where was it mentioned 

[MCIBUS]

I thought one of the reasons OC bought DD buses was the issue of artics in snow storms. That DD buses did better in snow storms then artics. Now grant you depending on how much snow you get in that storm & how much comes down in hour can or can't make a difference.

[JCL]

27 minutes ago, MCIBUS said:

I thought one of the reasons OC bought DD buses was the issue of artics in snow storms. That DD buses did better in snow storms then artics. Now grant you depending on how much snow you get in that storm & how much comes down in hour can or can't make a difference.

No, that was not the reason why OC Transpo purchased double decker buses (RE: issues with artics during the snowstorms). 

They were purchased because OC needed to expand service and provide passenger capacity during the rush hour in the Downtown core (pre-LRT days), but could not add additional buses due to the bus traffic congestion along Albert/Slater. As well, the double deckers were also used to handle the capacity during the LRT construction between 2015 and 2019 when the Transitway was closed down for conversion. 

The idea was to have double decker buses put onto express/peak routes (what was then the green and red coloured routes, respectively), as they were better suited on those types of routes. But as I said before, over the years, the DDs had gradually moved over to mainline bus routes. 

[M.Wright]

5 hours ago, Dexter249 said:

Considering the Connexion routes are getting axed this summer, I think accelerated retirement of the DDs is coming, probably replaced by XE60s

What's your source on this?

[bsnider001]

5 hours ago, Dexter249 said:

Considering the Connexion routes are getting axed this summer, I think accelerated retirement of the DDs is coming, probably replaced by XE60s

51 minutes ago, M.Wright said:

What's your source on this?

was wondering the exact same thing...

[Waiting for 30 Minutes]

7 hours ago, Dexter249 said:

Considering the Connexion routes are getting axed this summer, I think accelerated retirement of the DDs is coming, probably replaced by XE60s

Not true.

Not happening.

[Loud-Invero]

20 hours ago, Dexter249 said:

Considering the Connexion routes are getting axed this summer, I think accelerated retirement of the DDs is coming, probably replaced by XE60s

The only thing getting axed is your account for spreading disinformation. 

[TransitGeek]

5 hours ago, Loud-Invero said:

The only thing getting axed is your account for spreading disinformation. 

Ong

[M.Wright]

On 3/1/2023 at 5:56 PM, MCIBUS said:

I thought one of the reasons OC bought DD buses was the issue of artics in snow storms. That DD buses did better in snow storms then artics. Now grant you depending on how much snow you get in that storm & how much comes down in hour can or can't make a difference.

Despite OC and ATU 279 President Clint Crabtree advertising that artics are a winter problem (with their snow day service for 30+ cm), I can confirm that articulated buses (particularly the D60LFRs) are better in the snow over Double Deckers as long as the following mechanical conditions are met:

• Good tread on drive axle (the rear)
• Properly functioning ATC (Automatic Traction Control) system
• Properly functioning H-Dampening system
• And also directing passengers to sit in the trailer as much as possible. Too many passengers in the front will cause the rear axle in the trailer to start losing traction, which could lead to one getting stuck

Now you may be wondering what is the "H-Dampening" system? While I'm not a mechanic or engineer, my basic understanding is that this system is triggered when the ABS (Anti-lock Braking System) or ATC (Automatic Traction Control) is activated by detecting wheel slippage. Both ATC and ABS systems detect wheel slippage by monitoring the individual wheel rotation speeds on all 6 axles. If one is spinning at a different speed from the other 5 axles, the appropriate system will activate as that is a sign of wheel slippage.

This is where I am not 100% certain on the accurate mechanical operation of the system, this is my basic understanding. Once wheel slippage is detected, the "H-Dampening" system will utilize the hydraulic cylinders in the joint to "lock" the joint in whatever angle the joint is currently at. For example, if you are going straight and ATC is activated, the joint will stay in the straight angle. If you are turning right and the ATC is activated, the joint will remain in the right turn angle (which typically causes the middle axle to start sliding, can be quite fun to drive!). This essentially temporarily turns the articulated bus into a non-articulated bus until the ATC and ABS system are no longer active (which sometimes when turning, you need to let off the accelerator to disable the system until you are straightened out).

The D60LFs (6351-6403) do not have a strong H-Dampening system and as a result, it is much easier to get stuck in a D60LF, despite meeting the above criteria that I set out. The operation of the "H-Dampening" system is currently not taught to operators in the "Articulated Bus Training" course which is part of the 6-week NBOT (New Bus Operator Training) course. Therefore the lack of knowledge of this system can lead to operator error and result in one getting stuck. This is mainly why you will see D60LFRs that get stuck regularly. In order to activate the "H-Dampening" system, the operator needs to put the accelerator to the floor to trigger the ATC system to trigger the system. This contradicts the Winter Training which requires operators to "feather" the accelerator on all buses in winter conditions. By "feathering" the accelerator and not activating the "H-Dampening" system, it could lead to the trailer starting to slide and getting you into a situation that you will need a tow truck or supervisor car to rescue you. Plus the operator does not know if the ATC or H-Dampening system is malfunctioning until you find yourself in a situation where you need those systems (as they don't normally activate in rain or dry conditions).

Also, if the tread on the tires is nearing the end of it's life then all these fancy systems will not have any effect in preventing you from getting stuck. But this is true on any bus, regardless of type.

However if we had proper rear tire tread like the STO, Cornwall, STM, school buses and basically every other system that sees snow (and even systems that don't regularly see snow like Victoria), then we likely would have a better chance at not getting stuck in the snow.

They did a demonstration/test of proper rear tires on the D60LFs (6351-6404) in the spring/summer of 2017 but by the time winter hit, the tires were all replaced because they were worn out (the average life of bus tires anyway). Therefore we didn't actually get a chance to test those tires in the snow. I am not sure what the purpose of that test was, other than to possibly examine lifespan (as they would wear slightly faster than the sleek tires we currently use) and ride quality/noise levels (since they wouldn't be as smooth).

However the increased wear (as minor as it is) will then require more frequent tire changes and when multiplied by 846 buses, would increase maintenance costs on all our buses. Considering we have had a City Council that doesn't want to fund transit, when balancing the costs of maintenance and the costs of providing service, they tend to reduce maintenance costs in order to save service. Reducing maintenance cost (or "optimizing the budget") includes reducing tire change intervals by using the sleek tires that don't wear out as quickly. Therefore until City Council decides to start seriously focusing on funding fleet maintenance which would allow more frequent tire change intervals, we likely will never get proper drive axle tires.

As for the Double Deckers, while they do have a "tag axle lift" function that is intended to temporarily put more weight on the drive axle (which is the 2nd axle) to gain traction, this function is not very effective as it doesn't fully lift the tag axle. Therefore it is much easier to get stuck in a double decker vs a D60LFR.

If you ask most bus operators, they'd rather see OC Transpo pull the Double Deckers off the road in the "Snow Day" service, rather than the Articulated Buses.

That is all.

[OC Transpo/STO Fan]

The following 8000s have been stored:

8001, 8004, 8007, 8013, 8015, 8016, 8028, 8029, 8031, 8033, 8034, 8038, 8039, 8043, 8053, 8055, 8057, 8058, 8059, 8060, 8067, 8071, 8073 (23/75)

Credit goes to Mike Wright for providing this info on the 8001-8075 CPTDB wiki page.

Edit: 4291, 4333, 4336, 4340, 4358, 4406, 4442, 4459, 4469, 4481, 4483, 4486, 4487, 4501, 4507, 4509, 4523 (17/93) were also stored according to their wiki page

The ones in bold are the refurbs I'm aware of

[Loud-Invero]

Does the commission have any intention of reinstalling the doors at Blair Station bus stops? I find it comes off as classist as Suburbanites who take PM Connexion routes can enjoy an enclosed shelter while "everyone else" has to deal with the cold and the other negative impacts of an open air shelter.

It's especially ridiculous during off-peak and weekends where bus waits are significantly longer. 

[JCL]

12 hours ago, Loud-Invero said:

Does the commission have any intention of reinstalling the doors at Blair Station bus stops? I find it comes off as classist as Suburbanites who take PM Connexion routes can enjoy an enclosed shelter while "everyone else" has to deal with the cold and the other negative impacts of an open air shelter.

It's especially ridiculous during off-peak and weekends where bus waits are significantly longer. 

The shelter glass and doors were removed because pre-COVID-19 when LRT opened, there were too many people on the platform during the rush hour (particularly PM Rush Hour). The idea was that by removing the glass and door, there would be more standing room at the station platform be made available.

OC Transpo staff are suppose to be coming up with a solution on this, but there hasn't been a whole lot details on what the permanent solution would be.

[95X Special]

https://www.octranspo.com/en/plan-your-trip/service-changes/better-bus-stops-project-sunnyside

[Waiting for 30 Minutes]

1 hour ago, 95X Special said:

https://www.octranspo.com/en/plan-your-trip/service-changes/better-bus-stops-project-sunnyside

Ooo, possible end to the legacy streetcar loop.

[Loud-Invero]

I honestly don't know why they bothered with the consultation. I'm 99% sure they already made up their mind before even posting this "consultation". At least, if anything this company has shown us in the last 10 years, expect to see 7 removed from those streets regardless of the results, to which they will post no report on the comments made because transparency with decisions and comments made were last seen in 2011.

For the record, I'm for the removal.

[ZümmyZüm]

Myself and another operator on this board are very against this change. Me personally I was just against it for the history and usage, however the other operator makes an extremely valid point.

With the school on sunnyside as well as the generally tight road conditions (and that’s in the summer) buses will be delayed by school dismissal and parents blocking everything. In addition, the left turn from Sunnyside to Bank street is not bus friendly whatsoever. The stop just after the intersection will also cause traffic backlogs with a 60ft bus. 

and finally, the traffic situation on Grove actually works extremely well for the 7, when the red light goes for Belmont the bus can then push forward into the intersection and protect the left side. From there the traffic on the other direction almost always yield and give the bus the opportunity to turn safety and with a wide berth of room. 

[MCIBUS]

One easy solution, put traffic lights at that location.

[Enviro_1203]

5 hours ago, MCIBUS said:

One easy solution, put traffic lights at that location.

This makes absolutely ZERO sense in this high density traffic area with a set of lights 2 blocks south and one block north. Imagine every intersection on every street was a 4 way stop, there would be no traffic flow.

[Waiting for 30 Minutes]

On 3/17/2023 at 4:12 AM, MCIBUS said:

One easy solution, put traffic lights at that location.

What's easy in Sim City isn't easy in real life.

[M.Wright]

On 3/17/2023 at 4:12 AM, MCIBUS said:

One easy solution, put traffic lights at that location.

That'd encourage cars to use Grove, which would first Piss off Grove residents. Second, it would lessen the unofficial transit priority effect that exists on Grove.

I am STRONGLY against the removal of the 7 on Grove, and I drive that route on a regular basis as it's my favorite route.

They tried this back in 2003 when Bank was being reconstructed in the area, and it was put back on Grove because of the delays encountered on EB Sunnyside and in the past 20 years, Sunnyside has not changed.

 

Furthermore, this is a 110 year old routing that literally built this neighborhood. Started service on October 17th, 1913, changed to buses on January 12th, 1959.

Continued as 1A, extended to Carleton, renumbered to the 7, and virtually unchanged since then.

[Loud-Invero]

Transit Budget 101: | OC Transpo

Also, I love this part:
 

Quote

No. There are no service reductions planned as part of the 2023 budget. 

Also...

Quote

The city will need at least $39 million to balance the budget. Should we not receive this amount our team will have alternative options ready, including using our reserves or bringing options for further costs savings to the Transit Commission and Council for consideration. 

 

[Waiting for 30 Minutes]

On 3/20/2023 at 9:26 PM, Loud-Invero said:

Transit Budget 101: | OC Transpo

Also, I love this part:
 

Also...

 

Budget deferrals and reductions are all capital. The operations budget is increasing by a bit.

The 39 million is an assumed grant the province/federal government will give the city. If it doesn't happen, then more of the capital deferrals outlined in the budget will need to happen.