Misc. OC Transpo & STO Questions & Discussion

[1overcosc]

On 2/1/2017 at 1:08 PM, chimo said:

No doubt the benefits in the downtown core are significant and will justify the costs. 

However I wouldn't go so fast on the false label here. Alstom based our LRT off a line of products already in service in Europe except ours will be heavier. 

The performance in Europe in service didn't match what was Alstom promised. Leading to some political embarrassment in France. Am not saying they are duds, far from it those are fine vehicles, but it didn't quite do what it said on the tin.

I am heavily pro-LRT but I have to be honest with myself and am suspicious of Alstom can pull a rabbit out of its hat. Possible though as weight is not the only relevant factor.

Alstom has to match the speeds provided to the city or they will face legal consequences. The P3 contract requires that RTG run a system with an end-to-end travel time of no more than 24 minutes; which is equal to the average off-peak travel time of the old 95 before the construction began. Hence why city staff will always say the travel time from Blair to Tunney's will be "less than 24 minutes"; that's what Alstom is contractually obligated to deliver.

As a modern P3 contract the penalities for failing to meet it are severe. An example: if the project is delayed, RTG has to pay the City of Ottawa $1 million a day for every day past the contracted opening date (which IIRC, is May 25th, 2018) that the line is not in full revenue service.

 

As for curves, electric trains can take turns faster than diesel buses can. The LRT trains won't have to slow down as much at sharp curves as the buses had to. Further compounding this, in several sections, as part of the conversion, the corridor is actually being modified to be straighter. This is present around Bayview-Lebreton, Hurdman, and the train station.

[chimo]

27 minutes ago, 1overcosc said:

Alstom has to match the speeds provided to the city or they will face legal consequences. The P3 contract requires that RTG run a system with an end-to-end travel time of no more than 24 minutes; which is equal to the average off-peak travel time of the old 95 before the construction began. Hence why city staff will always say the travel time from Blair to Tunney's will be "less than 24 minutes"; that's what Alstom is contractually obligated to deliver.

As a modern P3 contract the penalities for failing to meet it are severe. An example: if the project is delayed, RTG has to pay the City of Ottawa $1 million a day for every day past the contracted opening date (which IIRC, is May 25th, 2018) that the line is not in full revenue service.

 

As for curves, electric trains can take turns faster than diesel buses can. The LRT trains won't have to slow down as much at sharp curves as the buses had to. Further compounding this, in several sections, as part of the conversion, the corridor is actually being modified to be straighter. This is present around Bayview-Lebreton, Hurdman, and the train station.

Any PPP contract is not worth the paper it's written on. No PPP in either Canada or the UK has come to term. None. It's designed like that. They all fail as that's how you make money on them. It's always a shell company which has to pay exhorbitant management fees to its corporate parents, the shell company will fail just after the halfway point.

Yes there will be penalties but nothing that Alstom hasn't planned and priced. Don't want to single you as I have read many times around here many having some sort of hope that the contract will guarantee performance. Am not involved in transit but am in similar contracts. We will get a nice system don't get me wrong but this veneration of the contract has to stop. We won't get what was promised. 

As for the curves, electric traction especially distributed motors as in the case of the Citadis Spirit certainly has better acceleration than a diesel bus. However you can only go so fast as your braking ability allow. Again distributed traction helps on braking with regenerative braking, but we are talking about a much heavier vehicle. Heavier than the rest of the Citadis family. For good reasons of course but it's a factor that has to be taken into consideration.

But the real issue is cant and this is where in curves a light rail vehicle is restricted compared to heavy rail. We will see some of those curves eliminated especially at Tremblay Station where it would have slowed things down too much. This is why the station is further west than the original. This really helps. But really the bus was taking most of those curves in the 75-90 range how much faster can we go on the LRT?

If you were on the old 95 it will be way faster, if you were on an express absolutely not. We were really flying and worse, now that we use more of the highway and skipping Cyrville, Tremblay, Hurdman and Lees the effect will be hard for those passengers. Ironically the construction has sped up those routes compared to the Transitway. That's what it's about, managing expectations and I don't think OC has done enough. The mostly useless ramp surfing at Vanier Parkway is not enough to slow us down. Most drivers use their judgment on when to surf or not. 

It will be more comfortable, more efficient, no more bunching and wall of buses and in the PM rush hour so much better to not have to guess where your bus will stop or miss it.

Stage 2 is crucial

 

[MCIBUS]

Quote

As for curves, electric trains can take turns faster than diesel buses can. The LRT trains won't have to slow down as much at sharp curves as the buses had to. Further compounding this, in several sections, as part of the conversion, the corridor is actually being modified to be straighter. This is present around Bayview-Lebreton, Hurdman, and the train station.

 Like this

 Quote

And how about hills and inclines/de-clines? I see the tunnel entrance at Lauier and it appears step, but there making some trenchbetwen the entrance and Campus Station, so not sure if there making it more easy for the train to enter the tunnel or not? And what about the section between Campus-Lees-Hurdman?

[chimo]

15 minutes ago, MCIBUS said:

And how about hills and inclines/de-clines? I see the tunnel entrance at Lauier and it appears step, but there making some trenchbetwen the entrance and Campus Station, so not sure if there making it more easy for the train to enter the tunnel or not? And what about the section between Campus-Lees-Hurdman?

That's just for the construction it will be dug out. Actually from the station site to the tunnel it will be a gentle incline. 

However LRT especially the electric ones can deal with some surprising inclines. But we don't have any problematic ones on our future line.

[sseguin]

For Stage 2, do you see them opening sections (Blair to Orleans) prior to 2022 if the construction is completed early for those areas? Or will they wait for the entire expansion to open everything? If the extension to Orleans is done by 2020 or 2021 or earlier, hard to imagine they would hold opening it until 2022.

Your thoughts?

[GTAmissions1]

3 hours ago, sseguin said:

For Stage 2, do you see them opening sections (Blair to Orleans) prior to 2022 if the construction is completed early for those areas? Or will they wait for the entire expansion to open everything? If the extension to Orleans is done by 2020 or 2021 or earlier, hard to imagine they would hold opening it until 2022.

Your thoughts?

It could be possible. At the same time, since there are two other extensions (Tunney's to Baseline (Algonquin College) and Bayshore), they also need to do their testing too ensuring compatibility and no issues occur. Especially being a critical piece of infrastructure, they really can't afford any technical issues or flaws in the extensions. 

Open when it is ready and all the technical testing and training of additional operators is done on the one section (Blair to Orleans). Rather than simply wait for all three extensions to open and start revenue service. Especially like you mentioned, Blair to Orleans is much shorter than the western extension where a tunnel has to be built taking more time to design and build out. 

[1overcosc]

The extension to Orleans probably won't take much time to build. Could probably go from construction to service in 2 years. Consider that construction on some of the surface parts of Phase 1 did not begin until mid-2016.

The western extension will take longer because of the tunneling required in several sections.

Now, they can either start construction for all of it in 2018 so that Orleans can open in 2020 and the western route in 2023, or they could opt to simply start construction on the Orleans side later to sync their openings.

[MCIBUS]

Since it'll bre running up the middle of 174 there are only a few places where it might take a bit:

 

Conecting to Blair Station

Montreal Road over pass

Connecting to Place D'Orleans Station

And perhaps to Trim Station

 

other then that its basically flat ground.

[Guest]

^ Blair station includes a new underpass to keep the tracks more linear/straight. (I don't know if that means a new overpass over the 174 or not, but definitely interchange arrangements. 

Also, blair stn needs to be designed to handle the future Cumberland transitway and/or Brian coburn, thingy!

maybe, that's the hardest part for the orleans section

[chimo]

13 minutes ago, CyrusKafaiWu said:

^ Blair station includes a new underpass to keep the tracks more linear/straight. (I don't know if that means a new overpass over the 174 or not, but definitely interchange arrangements. 

Also, blair stn needs to be designed to handle the future Cumberland transitway and/or Brian coburn, thingy!

maybe, that's the hardest part for the orleans section

A new overpass is planned. 

I really don't understand the point of the Cumberland Transitway, it would require me to walk more to get to a station (local service is crappy as it is) to a route (with a huge detour south) that will bring me to Blair where I don't want to go.

its faster to cut north-south and reach the stage 2 line. In my case am looking forward to go to Jeanne-d'Arc station to cut down time in bus which is the goal. But with the Transitway I won't, which makes me wonder if we even need the station as there won't be that many bus routes stopping there.

I think that this is what happens when politicians see only that they can get money from senior governments and want to be seen doing something. Worse when it's clear those politicians don't use the system. We risk getting more people in their cars. Blair cannot be redesigned to be a major bus terminal because of the way the line and station are located.

With the "unplanned " 70 million price tag to go from the bypass to Blair station we know it's not happening so buses will be dumped on the bypass and will have to go down Blair with the traffic lights and delays it entails. 

Even with the new developments we don't have the density, we need frequency not a fancy new road that will eat into OC's budget for decades.

[Centralsmt]

3 hours ago, chimo said:

A new overpass is planned. 

I really don't understand the point of the Cumberland Transitway, it would require me to walk more to get to a station (local service is crappy as it is) to a route (with a huge detour south) that will bring me to Blair where I don't want to go.

its faster to cut north-south and reach the stage 2 line. In my case am looking forward to go to Jeanne-d'Arc station to cut down time in bus which is the goal. But with the Transitway I won't, which makes me wonder if we even need the station as there won't be that many bus routes stopping there.

I think that this is what happens when politicians see only that they can get money from senior governments and want to be seen doing something. Worse when it's clear those politicians don't use the system. We risk getting more people in their cars. Blair cannot be redesigned to be a major bus terminal because of the way the line and station are located.

With the "unplanned " 70 million price tag to go from the bypass to Blair station we know it's not happening so buses will be dumped on the bypass and will have to go down Blair with the traffic lights and delays it entails. 

Even with the new developments we don't have the density, we need frequency not a fancy new road that will eat into OC's budget for decades.

Cumberland Transitway - Stephen Blais - votes - mayoral ambitions 

 

(anyone else see the connection?)

[chimo]

1 minute ago, Centralsmt said:

Cumberland Transitway - Stephen Blais - votes - mayoral ambitions 

 

(anyone else see the connection?)

Must admit I didn't. Was thinking more traditional politics in the sense of taking all the money he can from senior governments, not think about how to pay for this in the future, yet claim to have brought home the bacon. A less charitable interpretation is that there might be some friends who could benefit from the constructions contracts. And both interpretations are not mutually exclusive far from it.

I am astonished I didn't see the connection. Now that you mention it, yes! Of course! 

Let's see: 

• Cumberland Transitway
• Baseline Transitway phase 1
• Transitway extension under construction now in Kanata
• Confederation Line
• Lane expansion and extension of the 174

As for the Confederation Line, he can't claim all the credit but he can claim to have been there at a crucial moment (especially as president of the transit commission at council). As for the 174 he describes himself as the champion of that project which of course doesn't make sense with stage 2 of the Confederation Line but whatever, most voters do drive. 

So from a transit perspective he's doing things which should not lead me to vote for him, however I can see that for many in Ottawa he can list accomplishments. And after reading a column in the Citizen lately about Mayor Watson being past his best before date and encouraging him not to run again, I can see that some in the city are thinking of the next election and who should run.

Great catch Centralsmt!

 

[Guest]

Kanata North

[Flalex72]

On 2017-02-05 at 0:10 PM, CyrusKafaiWu said:

^ Blair station includes a new underpass to keep the tracks more linear/straight. (I don't know if that means a new overpass over the 174 or not, but definitely interchange arrangements. 

Also, blair stn needs to be designed to handle the future Cumberland transitway and/or Brian coburn, thingy!

maybe, that's the hardest part for the orleans section

The trail will use the existing bus transit way underpass under Blair road. The separate underpass got value-engineered out of the plans about a year ago.

[leylandvictory2]

Does anybody know the exact fleet number for current para transpo.fleet?

[HB_1024]

5601-5688. I don't think there are any other prefixes or suffixes associated with them, unlike the previous Para buses which had prefixes, but feel free to correct me. I'm also assuming there are indeed 88 of them, my memory may be foggy on the details.

[Oc4526]

37 minutes ago, HB_1024 said:

5601-5688. I don't think there are any other prefixes or suffixes associated with them, unlike the previous Para buses which had prefixes, but feel free to correct me. I'm also assuming there are indeed 88 of them, my memory may be foggy on the details.

No prefix just a 4 digit fleet # 

[MCIBUS]

Log Books

I'm jurious. Do OC drivers need/have to keep a log book of how many hours they drivenin a day and also how many KMS they drive a day like Truck drivers & highway coach drivers do?

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, MCIBUS said:

Log Books

I'm jurious. Do OC drivers need/have to keep a log book of how many hours they drivenin a day and also how many KMS they drive a day like Truck drivers & highway coach drivers do?

They should log the hours they drive in order to avoid an HOS violation.

[Waiting for 30 Minutes]

1 hour ago, MCIBUS said:

Log Books

I'm jurious. Do OC drivers need/have to keep a log book of how many hours they drivenin a day and also how many KMS they drive a day like Truck drivers & highway coach drivers do?

While we are responsible for hours of service, there is no requirement to keep a log.

[MCIBUS]

Quesyion?

 

Regarding drivers work schedule?

 

I'm just curious on how drivers schedules are made up of?

 

I know you can only work so many hours per day(not sure of the exact hours), as well per week(not sure of the exact  hours) and have to have so many hours(break) between shifts(not exactly sure of the hours).

 

Any comments(that is, if your allowed to reveal that info)

[MCIBUS]

I've notice on at least 3 Artics the rear 4 windows(behind the rear door) now have a sticker saying "Window does not open".If you try and open it you can't!! Itto be either screwed shut or some how locked closed? Is this going to happen on all the artic's?

[philipc22]

2 hours ago, MCIBUS said:

I've notice on at least 3 Artics the rear 4 windows(behind the rear door) now have a sticker saying "Window does not open".If you try and open it you can't!! Itto be either screwed shut or some how locked closed? Is this going to happen on all the artic's?

all arctics will have this 

[OCtranspo10]

19 hours ago, philipc22 said:

all arctics will have this 

 

22 hours ago, MCIBUS said:

I've notice on at least 3 Artics the rear 4 windows(behind the rear door) now have a sticker saying "Window does not open".If you try and open it you can't!! Itto be either screwed shut or some how locked closed? Is this going to happen on all the artic's?

I am hearing this is only happening to 60's with emissions problems. But not 100%

[HB_1024]

Wouldn't, or at least shouldn't, "emissions problems" be a more serious issue that requires a better fix than just locking the back windows of the bus shut?