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2021-2030 SkyTrain Procurement


Express691
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41 minutes ago, Mac Write said:

Mark IV's? Has Bombardier even announced the Inovia 400?

IIRC the Innovia brand was dead even before the Alstom acquisition. Future LIM light-metro trains will be an extension of the Movia Metro platform.

41 minutes ago, Mac Write said:

I also saw in the document about retiring the Mark II trains.

In 2035, the original M-Line trains will be 33 years old. It’s possible that they’ll be replaced by higher-capacity trains in place of a major overhaul that would be needed at about that time.

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According to TransLink's PR, 125 cars of the initial order is to replace the MkI and for Broadway Extension, and 80 cars is to expand the capacity of existing lines.  Fleetwood/Langley extension will be from the options.  So when TransLink commit the option for 2025 opening of Fleetwood extension, it may be delivered the same time as the initial order, or the whole delivery schedule need to be adjusted?

So the likely outcome would be:

  • All MkI retired.  Expo Line will be fully 5-cars new train and 4-cars MkIII.  Millennium Line will be a mix of 2 and 4-cars MkII/III (about 1:2).
  • Most MkI retired, but some retained to make M-Line fully 4-cars MkII/III or 4-cars MkI.  This will need a minimum of 24 MkI cars, or perhaps more given the older trains may need higher spare ratio.

It is also possible that the options may not come quickly enough for the Fleetwood, Langley, and/or UBC extensions, so the MkI may be retained longer until the new trains for the extensions arrive.

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Higher resolution here:

Epdmn_0VQAA-CHS?format=jpg&name=orig

I think the rendering is still purely speculative, though other than some cosmetic differences this rendering is clearly based on a real life image at Main Street-Science World. It remains to be seen whether it would be a clean sheet model though. Reusing the basic design of the Mk III makes sense since it saves on development costs.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/17/2020 at 11:01 PM, nname said:

According to TransLink's PR, 125 cars of the initial order is to replace the MkI and for Broadway Extension, and 80 cars is to expand the capacity of existing lines.  Fleetwood/Langley extension will be from the options.  So when TransLink commit the option for 2025 opening of Fleetwood extension, it may be delivered the same time as the initial order, or the whole delivery schedule need to be adjusted?

From what I've read previously, the original plan from TransLink was to conduct the first Mark I retirements around 2026 (operations year 40) and that the refurbishment of Mark Is was meant to have the cars last about that long. I further read that the initial retirement wave would have been the 114 original Mark Is (circa 1985); the 36 1990-1995 cars could theoretically go on even further, to 2030-2035 respectively.

I don't know if they still intend on following this schedule; but at any rate, the carrying capacity of the new trains reaches parity with the original 114 Mark Is upon delivery of about 14 train sets, and with all 150 Mark Is upon delivery of 18 train sets (90 cars); meaning within the initial 125 cars, 35 cars form the surplus needed for the MLBE, which is about right (this is about 9 4-car trains; at a 3 min frequency, approximately 8 trains are needed to support MLBE operations, based on the estimated end-end travel time each way of 11 minutes).

If the 36 1990-1995 Mark Is (forming 6 6-car Mark I trains) do stay through 2030-2035, that creates some built-in surplus to support the SLS, and there will still be another 80 of the new Mark IV/III-b cars in the "service expansion" pool to draw upon.

Based on the delivery schedule, 14 trains will have been delivered by July 2025; 18 by November 2025; and 20 (100/205 cars) by the turn of 2026. I don't think the original Mark Is will necessarily be retired all at once at that time, since that will leave only around 30 surplus train cars (6 trains) for the Broadway subway and none for either SLS or service expansion; so my presumption is that the Mark I retirements will happen on a more gradual schedule, and that the combined presence of new Mark IVs (Mark III-bs?), 1986 Mark Is and 1990-1995 Mark Is will create the necessary surplus in trains to supply our extensions.

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16 hours ago, buizelbus said:

Is there any information of the seating layout of these? I'm assuming it'll be the usual 1-2 rows like the Mark III, although I'd love side seats like the MK Is...

The age old argument about what seating arrangement works best on Metros. I'm really curious to see what they choose.

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16 hours ago, buizelbus said:

Is there any information of the seating layout of these? I'm assuming it'll be the usual 1-2 rows like the Mark III, although I'd love side seats like the MK Is...

Given the March 2019 Engagement Report had perimeter/inwards-facing seats as second most preferred (after forward-facing), I imagine it's a real possibility.

Source: https://www.translink.ca/-/media/translink/documents/plans-and-projects/rapid-transit/2019_09_13_skytrain_fleet_engagement_summary.pdf

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  • 6 months later...
1 hour ago, Express691 said:

JUST announced in this morning's press release:

Option for 30 SkyTrain cars have been exercised

30 cars per year or is this some other order? I’m still trying to understand the order options.

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1 hour ago, 8010 said:

30 cars per year or is this some other order? I’m still trying to understand the order options.

The new train order is for a base firm order of 205 cars (41 sets), with delivery in 2023-2027.

There were options for an additional 400 cars as follows (based on the first post in this thread):

  • Option exercised by end of 2021: up to 30 additional cars (6 sets), delivery by end of 2025
  • Option exercised by end of 2024: up to 70 additional cars (14 sets), delivery by end of 2028
  • Option exercised by end of 2026: up to 100 additional cars (20 sets), delivery by end of 2032
  • Option exercised by end of 2028: up to 100 additional cars (20 sets), delivery by end of 2034
  • Option exercised by end of 2030: up to 100 additional cars (20 sets), delivery by end of 2036

Likely that the first option has been or will soon be exercised (the announcement today included funding for 30 new cars), so the total train order should now/soon be for 235 cars (47 5-car sets).

See also:

 https://bombardier.com/en/media/news/bombardier-supply-205-new-rail-cars-vancouvers-skytrain-network

Quote

Global mobility technology leader Bombardier Transportation announced today that it has signed a contract with TransLink for 205 new rail cars for the SkyTrain network in Vancouver. The modern 5-car trains will provide additional capacity to meet the region’s current and future transportation needs. The contract is valued at $721 million CAD (565 million US, 461 million euro) and includes options for up to 400 additional rail cars. 

 

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  • 5 weeks later...

What if Translink wants to exercise the option for more then 100 cars in 2024 (example UBC and Langley fully funded and service upgrade). Do they get the same rate? does it come from the following option? I could easily see Translink by end of 2034 needing more then 605 cars (121 5-car trains). Full retirement of the 6x6-car Mark 1's, possibly replacing the Mark II's 60-car original order or even all Mark 2 trains.

In 2034, the oldest trains excluding the 5-car trains will be.

  • 2002/32 years old - 60 - 2 car Mark II's
  • 2009/25 years old - 48 - 2 car Mark II's
  • 2016/19 years old  - 28 - 4 car Mark III's
  • 2020/14 years old - 28 - 4 car Mark III's
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  • 1 month later...

Selection found at the end of the September 23 Board Meeting Minutes:

Page 88:

Quote

The Surrey Langley SkyTrain Project, when implemented, will increase the size of the Expo and Millennium Line network by 24% as measured by track-km (from 66 to 82 kms) and increase the number of cars by 8%. The length of the extension makes it challenging to stabling vehicles and maintenance equipment from existing OMCs. The Skytrain network currently does not have an OMC south of the Fraser River and the nearest facility to the Langley terminus is approximately 30 minutes away (and longer by maintenance vehicles that travel at slower speeds than revenue service vehicles). There are currently 205 train cars on order to address planned peak capacity expansion, to service the Broadway Subway Project (BSP) extension, and to replace the retiring MKI trains.

An additional 30 train cars will be needed to be ordered by SLS opening day (2028) to service the extended network. By late 2028 there will be a combined 235 trains on the Expo Line peak, and 192 cars on the Millennium Line.

In 2028 the total combine Expo-Millennium Line fleet size will be 427 cars, which is more than the total number of available spaces (380 spaces) in the existing and planned OMCs:

• OMC1/2: 185 spaces
• OMC3: 50 spaces
• OMC4: 145 spaces

Total: 380 Spaces

Off the top of my head, counting each "space" as 17/18m long for each car.

Waterfront Tail Track: 8 Spaces across 2 tracks
Nanaimo Pocket: 4 Spaces 
Metrotown Pocket: 4 Spaces
Scott Road Pocket: 4 Spaces
Holdom pocket: 6 spaces
VCC-Clark: For now, let's say 6 spaces. (Not sure how the junction west of the station will be configured post-Broadway Extension but I'm sure there will be at least 2.)
Coquitlam Station Spur: 2 spaces.
Moody Centre: 6 Spaces

Unsure if Braid Pocket is counted in OMC4 estimates.

42 spaces inside pocket tracks not including Fraser Extension. 

We can adjust some of the older 4-space long pocket tracks and we arrive at 47 spaces.

Then there is the issue of proximity where the first trains need to be put into service really early from Langley (estimate 04:45am first train westbound). Cant always guarantee the first train comes from the pocket tracks.

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9 hours ago, Express691 said:

Then there is the issue of proximity where the first trains need to be put into service really early from Langley (estimate 04:45am first train westbound). Cant always guarantee the first train comes from the pocket tracks.

With maintenance windows, you might not see trains from Langley that early. My guess is that first train from Langley Centre will be the same time as now (05:00–05:10) and that you'll see a train or two enter service in each direction from King George at the same time. You might even see morning service begin from King George in both directions, with first train not reaching Langley until 05:30 or so.

The next question is: what happens to the NightBus network? But that's for another thread.

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An additional 30 train cars will be needed to be ordered by SLS opening day (2028) to service the extended network. By late 2028 there will be a combined 235 trains on the Expo Line peak, and 192 cars on the Millennium Line.

I'm particular interested in this quote... so I guess the plan is to put all the 5-car trains to Expo line and run it exclusively with 5-cars, and then put all the 2/4-cars to Millennium and I guess run all trains using 4-cars.

If that's the case, that means there will be 47 available trains on the Expo, and 48 trains on the Millennium line.  Consider 10-12% spare for old trains and 6-8% spare for new trains, with my calculation, that's roughly every 7min on each branch of the Expo line (combined frequency about every 2.33min), and Millennium line will also have a train every 2.33min.

Would that be too little capacity for Expo, and too much for Millennium?  And not sure if they can still run the Expo train to Production given the planned sub-3min frequency on the Millennium.  Maybe the Expo will terminate at Lougheed, at least during the peak hours?

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2 hours ago, GORDOOM said:

@nname AIUI the reno to Columbia will include an entirely new platform and track for the Millennium Line. If that happens, all Expo Line trains will run to Scott Road and points beyond.

How would this work? Would Millennium line trains retake the Columbia to Lougheed section, terminating at new platforms at Columbia?

If that becomes reality, then that actually makes some sense. Lougheed to Arbutus would be able to run at combined Expo Line frequencies (instead of being limited due to terminating Expo Line trains at Production Way), while Surrey gets much needed improved service.

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2 hours ago, anyfong said:

How would this work? Would Millennium line trains retake the Columbia to Lougheed section, terminating at new platforms at Columbia?

If that becomes reality, then that actually makes some sense. Lougheed to Arbutus would be able to run at combined Expo Line frequencies (instead of being limited due to terminating Expo Line trains at Production Way), while Surrey gets much needed improved service.

It'd be great if it happens, because currently the Expo and Millennium Line frequencies are dependent on each other due to the overlap between Lougheed and Production Way. Removing that shared track would mean that the two lines can have frequency adjustments separate from each other.

Quote

By late 2028 there will be a combined 235 trains on the Expo Line peak, and 192 cars on the Millennium Line.

However, with the 235 train cars on Expo being 47 5-car trains, I don't see how train frequencies will work. At current peak two-minute intervals, around 45 trains are needed, plus spares. If we replace 4-car trains (assuming 6-car Mk 1s are more-or-less equivalent to 4-car Mk 2s/3s) with 5-car trains but keep the overall capacity of the system, we can reduce peak train intervals to 2.5 minutes (36 trains), and with 5- or 7.5-minute intervals for the King George - Langley portion (one in every two or three trains) we're looking at an additional 9 or 6 trains. That would get us to between 42-45 trains at peak, but there would not be a service increase from current levels, and there would not be any additional capacity to expand. This calculation assumes that the current service pattern of 1/3 peak trains to Production Way continues, but moving the Production Way train to King George would only decrease the required trains by one.

And then, on the Millennium Line, 192 trains is 48 4-car trains. Arbutus to Lafarge Lake is around 48 minutes, and based on the future service levels of the M-Line at 7500 pphpd it would equate to appromately one 4-car train every four minutes (15 trains per hour). This would only require 24 trains in total. If we move every other train to Columbia instead of Lafarge Lake then even fewer trains would be required. That is a tremendous amount of spares.

So I think the statement in the Board Meeting Report is a mistake, unless there are other service reconfigurations that we don't know about yet.

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32 minutes ago, briguychau said:

So I think the statement in the Board Meeting Report is a mistake, unless there are other service reconfigurations that we don't know about yet.

Very likely the latter is the case, as I have no recollection of board meeting reports having mistakes in my experience. 

Might be able to do a FOI but it's unlikely we'll A: get any (useful) information or B: said information will change in the time leading up to opening day

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I really doubt frequency on the Expo and Millenium line will decrease with 5-car trains. COVID will be over by the time the first 5-Car train enters revenue service in June 2024. The system is getting busier and busier. So I Don't expect a reduction in frequency during rush hour. 5-car trains on the Expo line will still be packed to the rims with people. 

So based on that how many trains does Expo use now?

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