Ontario Line

[Articulated]

Just now, Mark Walton said:

Aren't both the east and west legs of the BD line about equally congested? Don't all those transferring passengers clog up the 2 interchange stations, B-Y and St. George, about equally? That's why I think both ends of that line need relief.

The west leg already has a relief line - it used to be called the University line.

The issue with relief is less to do with Line 2 than it is to do with Line 1. There is more ridership on the Yonge side of Line 1 than there is on the University/Spadina side - that means passengers from the east side of Line 2, which would connect at Bloor-Yonge, cannot fit onto the already-overcrowded Line 1 trains.

Crowding at St. George is also becoming more of an issue, but the biggest crowding issues are at Bloor-Yonge and on the Yonge side - which is why it is getting all of the political attention.

[smallspy]

14 hours ago, Mark Walton said:

I never considered the old DRL much use unless it connected with both ends of the BD line. This line doesn't look like it will be any more useful in that respect.

Good thing that the research into this has proven you wrong then, eh?

Dan

[Streety McCarface]

On 9/4/2019 at 9:41 PM, Mark Walton said:

Aren't both the east and west legs of the BD line about equally congested? Don't all those transferring passengers clog up the 2 interchange stations, B-Y and St. George, about equally? That's why I think both ends of that line need relief.

But the west end has St George as an option, plus GO Transit/UPX. The east end has nothing, and the 506 is pretty useless to the majority of people going downtown. The majority of users get off at the first useful transfer point available, so alleviating East usage is far more important, especially since their first choice is the Yonge line. 

[Mark Walton]

On 9/4/2019 at 9:44 PM, Articulated said:

The west leg already has a relief line - it used to be called the University line.

The issue with relief is less to do with Line 2 than it is to do with Line 1. There is more ridership on the Yonge side of Line 1 than there is on the University/Spadina side - that means passengers from the east side of Line 2, which would connect at Bloor-Yonge, cannot fit onto the already-overcrowded Line 1 trains.

Crowding at St. George is also becoming more of an issue, but the biggest crowding issues are at Bloor-Yonge and on the Yonge side - which is why it is getting all of the political attention.

University has been so thoroughly subsumed into the larger YS line that no one thinks of it as separate anymore. I foresee crowding at St. George becoming worse in time, plus that station is more cramped than BY. Plus since the TYSSE opened, trains coming from Spadina may be more crowded than before. Don't know about UP Express loads. That's why I still foresee the need for DRL West in some form, so better to bite the bullet now. 

[smallspy]

14 hours ago, Mark Walton said:

University has been so thoroughly subsumed into the larger YS line that no one thinks of it as separate anymore. I foresee crowding at St. George becoming worse in time, plus that station is more cramped than BY. Plus since the TYSSE opened, trains coming from Spadina may be more crowded than before. Don't know about UP Express loads. That's why I still foresee the need for DRL West in some form, so better to bite the bullet now. 

Maybe you should ride the line to see what the traffic levels are like rather than trying to assume things from 500 kilometers away?

 

Busy as it is, the University leg of the line is still much quieter than the Yonge Line and isn't projected to reach capacity for some time. Yes, it would be ideal to extend the DRL/Ontario Line further west to help deal with this, and it will eventually be done, but for the time being it is not nearly as pressing an issue as the east side.

 

And with a finite amount of dollars to spend, the choices need to be made carefully.

 

Dan

[dre]

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2019/10/08/ford-government-eyes-dropping-ttc-upload-in-exchange-for-ontario-line-support-sources.html

[nfitz]

I guess the right person finally realized just how many billions of $ were required in capital just for maintaining the current system in the next decade or so, between the new signalling systems, platform doors, elevators, new rolling stock, new yard, Bloor-Yonge improvements, capacity improvements, etc, etc.

That's a shame, I was hoping the city would be able to offload some of it's spending to the province.

[Tramguy]

I know that this is a simplistic answer that may not work, but what about Flex time that was heavily implemented 20 years ago when overcrowding was a challenge in the subway system.   I know, I know, I know!   There are more people today!   I blame it all on renaming the lines 1, 2 & 3.  LOL!   The Ontario  Line is a disaster waiting to happen!

My Solution:   Put more trains on the Lakeshore East line.   Run more buses to GO stations at Rouge Hill, Guildwood, Eglinton, Scarborough and Danforth.  It may add some time to the trip to work but not as much to our tax bills!   This would be cheaper than billions for subways and lower maintenance costs!  Can't imagine the northbound Yonge subway being overloaded!  AIf it happnes, just a 2 1/2 minute wait for the next one!   John Tory and Doug Ford are too close to the forest to see the trees!

[smallspy]

14 hours ago, Tramguy said:

I know that this is a simplistic answer that may not work, but what about Flex time that was heavily implemented 20 years ago when overcrowding was a challenge in the subway system.   I know, I know, I know!   There are more people today!   I blame it all on renaming the lines 1, 2 & 3.  LOL!   The Ontario  Line is a disaster waiting to happen!

You may be joking, but this is honestly a very valid suggestion. And it works for some people whose work hours are flexible.

 

But what if your hours are not?

 

14 hours ago, Tramguy said:

My Solution:   Put more trains on the Lakeshore East line.   Run more buses to GO stations at Rouge Hill, Guildwood, Eglinton, Scarborough and Danforth.  It may add some time to the trip to work but not as much to our tax bills!   This would be cheaper than billions for subways and lower maintenance costs!  Can't imagine the northbound Yonge subway being overloaded!  AIf it happnes, just a 2 1/2 minute wait for the next one!   John Tory and Doug Ford are too close to the forest to see the trees!

The problem is ease of access - or more specifically, lack thereof. The GO trains are great if you live reasonably close to a station, or work reasonably close to Union. Otherwise? You're better off on the subway as it will take you much closer to where you need to go.

 

And frankly, there's no easy solution to that. Train tracks generally run through industrial areas, which are not conducive to making it easy to access. And Metrolinx still has yet to understand the concept of building a station without a massive parking lot, which is why stations are generally built a distance away from any major streets.

 

Dan

[nfitz]

4 hours ago, smallspy said:

You may be joking, but this is honestly a very valid suggestion. And it works for some people whose work hours are flexible.

Flex time is more common than it when the subway ridership previously peaked - closer to 30 years ago than 20 now. As is working at home. I frequently don't come into the office until after the 9 AM rush, working remotely until then. Others are in at 7 AM. Some are gone by 3:30. I'm normally there after 6 pm. I couldn't work like that even 25 years ago, with poor network connectivity.

I think most of the gains from that idea, have already happened. It's not like rush hour is just an hour any more. If anything, this is what let us delay the planned relief line from the late 1980s to now.

[Ed T.]

7 hours ago, smallspy said:

You may be joking, but this is honestly a very valid suggestion. And it works for some people whose work hours are flexible.

But what if your hours are not?

I've been on the first subway train out of Kipling station in the morning, and it has a pretty good crowd. And there are still pretty good crowds at 10 AM on the Yonge line going north from Bloor (I had to stand until Eglinton the other day). I have a hard time imagining what shift you'd have to be on to get a relatively uncrowded ride.

The roads are no better....I've been driving to work for 6 AM, and by 5:45 the 401 has a good crowd: better hope there isn't bad weather, or the whole thing will back up.

[Cityflyer]

  I'm moving this topic from the streetcar thread here so it's more appropriate...

4 hours ago, nfitz said:

Skytrain is merely a "brand" on the Canada Line. The same way the older Skytrain technology in Toronto on Line 3 is called RT or Subway. A 6-car Canada Line would be fine. But if they'd do that, why not make the lines compatible?

So there's no other options for the Ontario Line unless they use a technology that hasn't been done in Canada.

It's either Confederation Line models at max length (which will be used on Line 6 anyways but at a much reduced length), Bombardier Mark III in 8 car trains or Canada Line in 6 car trains.
I don't see the C Train models (and ETS LRT) having the capacity for this line. And I'm pretty sure they are not building it to have it run with rubber wheels using STM's MPM-10 trains.

[nfitz]

1 hour ago, Cityflyer said:

So there's no other options for the Ontario Line unless they use a technology that hasn't been done in Canada.

I'm not sure what you mean - as far as I know the Canada Train technology is pretty much the same as the existing Toronto subway, but with automation, and slightly narrower (and much shorter) trains. Nothing precludes building the tunnels slightly wider to handle the existing vehicles, and still automating it. Or even automating Line 1, 2, and 4, if they really wanted to spend that money and replace (or upgrade) the rolling stock.

The big problem with Vancouver, is the entire train and platform is shorter than a single Line 6 LRT car. Heck, it's only 1/3 longer than a streetcar!

[Cityflyer]

39 minutes ago, nfitz said:

I'm not sure what you mean - as far as I know the Canada Train technology is pretty much the same as the existing Toronto subway, but with automation, and slightly narrower (and much shorter) trains. Nothing precludes building the tunnels slightly wider to handle the existing vehicles, and still automating it. Or even automating Line 1, 2, and 4, if they really wanted to spend that money and replace (or upgrade) the rolling stock.

The big problem with Vancouver, is the entire train and platform is shorter than a single Line 6 LRT car. Heck, it's only 1/3 longer than a streetcar!

Just trying to estimate what Dougie wants to use on the Ontario Line at this point now that he has both Tory behind his back and Trudeau is almost certain to commit to this plan with his second election.

IIRC, all he said was use smaller train sets and smaller gauge.
We all know most likely smaller gauge means the standard gauge so it'll be standardized with the rest of the Metrolinx lines (5 & 6).
Smaller train sets basically can be anything operating in Canada because TTC's heavy rail models are the biggest in terms of per car length and width within Canada so far.

As for speeding up the construction time and lowering the cost with alternative technology, does it mean to use a single tunnel construction (in below ground sections) that can fit 2 tracks?
If so, the model can't be that wide. I would assume the max width of the trainset would be around the 2.65m mark which is what is used for STM's MPM-10 models which happens to be around the same width as the Flexity Freedom, Bombardier Mark III and the Citadis Spirit.
Can the Canada Line model fit into a single tunnel with 2 rail tracks?

[nfitz]

1 hour ago, Cityflyer said:

IIRC, all he said was use smaller train sets and smaller gauge.
We all know most likely smaller gauge means the standard gauge so it'll be standardized with the rest of the Metrolinx lines (5 & 6).

The gauge difference between TTC and standard gauge, is so trivial, that some equipment can run on both! It's only a 30 mm difference on each wheel. It doesn't effect the width of the car. Toronto subway cars are about the same width (3.1 metres) as some other systems that use standard gauge. New York has some 3.05-metre wide cars on standard gauge., and I don't think most people would even notice the difference. It certainly doesn't make much difference to tunnelling or station costs. Even Vancouvers are 3.0 metres wide.

I'm surprised that Ford would even mention such a minor detail. It's the length that's an issue, not the width.

 

1 hour ago, Cityflyer said:

Can the Canada Line model fit into a single tunnel with 2 rail tracks?

Why shouldn't it be able to do? That's what TTC were planning for their cancelled Line 2 extension that was going to open in 2027.

Though the larger the tunnel diameter, the more they'll want to stay in bedrock, driving the line deeper, and stations more expensive.

Also, compare Montreal's bedrock to Toronto - it's far more competent - you can use a backhoe on some Toronto bedrock, where it's surprisingly soft shales. Meanwhile in Montreal, there's some spots in the Metro, where they've left the bedrock exposed!

[Chris W]

8 hours ago, nfitz said:

The gauge difference between TTC and standard gauge, is so trivial, that some equipment can run on both! It's only a 30 mm difference on each wheel. It doesn't effect the width of the car. Toronto subway cars are about the same width (3.1 metres) as some other systems that use standard gauge. New York has some 3.05-metre wide cars on standard gauge., and I don't think most people would even notice the difference. It certainly doesn't make much difference to tunnelling or station costs. Even Vancouvers are 3.0 metres wide.

I'm surprised that Ford would even mention such a minor detail. It's the length that's an issue, not the width.

It would surprise me more if Ford actually read something other than a dollars per gram chart. I really don't see this Ontario Line thing happening as there's no concrete plan for it. He basically torpedoed John Tory's plan out of pure spite for the fact that he lost the 2014 mayoral election to a more qualified candidate and Torontonians will continue to pay the price for it. I can't take anything Douglas says seriously unless it's "I hearby resign as premier of Ontario".

[John Oke]

This thought popped into my head right now

the CNE will be insane in summer 2026 with the Ontario Line construction as well as the FIFA World Cup taking place at BMO field

[nfitz]

16 minutes ago, John Oke said:

This thought popped into my head right now

the CNE will be insane in summer 2026 with the Ontario Line construction as well as the FIFA World Cup taking place at BMO field

I'm not sure how it would have much impact. The station platforms would be north of the Gardiner, and I'd think all construction activities would be north of any land that's normally accessible during the CNE. Perhaps some minor impact to some of the non-public storage areas.

Though it's a big leap, that this project will have started construction by then.

I don't think 3 extra soccer games has much impact under any scenario. It's only about 4,000 more in the temporary stands, than during some earlier events.

[John Oke]

I forget about this but are they tunnelling under the Don, paralleling the GO tracks or a bridge over the DVP and Don River?

[nfitz]

Over. With the platforms and tracks straddling the existing tracks (and proposed platforms). Similar set-up at Exhibition GO.

[Shaun]

And what is the idea behind terminating the service at the EX? Are they going to build living space for 10k people or something? 

[nfitz]

25 minutes ago, Shaun said:

And what is the idea behind terminating the service at the EX? Are they going to build living space for 10k people or something? 

There's a lot living nearby in Liberty Village - many backing onto the station.

This is the resurrection of the old 2012ish Metrolinx Relief Line, that intersects the Lakeshore Line both both east and west of Union. 
 

 

[Transit geek]

3 hours ago, nfitz said:

There's a lot living nearby in Liberty Village - many backing onto the station.

This is the resurrection of the old 2012ish Metrolinx Relief Line, that intersects the Lakeshore Line both both east and west of Union. 
 

 

Hang on, wasn't it the TTC who actually came up with the Relief Line proposal - way before the Ford government came around?

[nfitz]

58 minutes ago, Transit geek said:

Hang on, wasn't it the TTC who actually came up with the Relief Line proposal - way before the Ford government came around?

TTC proposals dates to the 1960s (well 1940s as streetcar/subway). Resurrected in the 1980s until Jack Layton and the NDP killed it, so as not to encourage growth downtown. Resurrected towards end of David Miller mayoralty, and included in 2008 Ontario Big Move.

Metrolinx considered something similar when looking at how to deal with Union capacity issues - more focused on relieving Union than relieving Yonge/Bloor.

[Ed T.]

13 hours ago, Shaun said:

And what is the idea behind terminating the service at the EX? Are they going to build living space for 10k people or something? 

Those of us in South Etobicoke see the possibility of linking in the West Waterfront LRT to the Ontario Line terminus at the Ex. That seems more useful a connection that going all the way to Uniion station.