Orion bus International: The story of what could have been...

[Orion VI]

Orion closed actually because of Daimler's very limited knowledge of the North American bus market. Read below (from Transit Toronto)

 

Orion was at the top of its game. Unfortunately, the company that managed it was not. Daimler, which had divested itself of Chrysler in 2007, suddenly announced in the April 2012 its intention to get out of the North American bus industry entirely. Citing austerity budgets by governments across North America, Daimler stated that it did not see a future for the industry — or, at least, not a future that could justify its continued investment.

THE FALL OF ORION BUS INDUSTRIES

Orion stopped taking orders for new buses on April 25, 2012, and announced that its Mississauga factory would shut down after its current orders were completed. This closure occurred the next year. The Oriskany, New York facility would remain open to serve the aftermarket business of spare parts and maintenance. On March 1, 2013, New Flyer Industries announced it was buying out the remaining assets of Orion, including the aftermarket business, and its remaining bus orders.

For the past decade, Orion Bus Industries had a tremendous influence on agencies across America, especially in Ontario. That influence disappeared overnight due to its parent company losing interest in the manufacturing of buses. The transit agencies that have invested in the Orion VII are now served by New Flyer Industries for spare parts and maintenance. Over the next few years, New Flyer and other bus manufacturers will build the models that serve Toronto passengers.

As for Don Sheardon, he was recognized by the Canadian Urban Transportation Association by being put in their Hall of Fame in 1994. In their write-up, they said, “Don exported buses made in Mississauga to Sweden, Denmark and the United States, and OBI became the largest bus manufacturer in North America, growing from 45 employees in 1979 to 1,200 people in the early 90s. Don was a major contributor to his community and his industry. He supported CUTA extensively, and received the highest honour that any Canadian can receive - naming of the hockey arena in his hometown of Bolton, Ontario.”

The Orion logo will vanish from city streets, but not for a while. It takes some time for that many buses to fade away. Over that time, the Orions will have left a mark on Toronto transportation comparable to the General Motors New Look.

[Chris.A]

On ‎11‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 7:20 AM, Orion VI said:

Orion closed actually because of Daimler's very limited knowledge of the North American bus market. Read below (from Transit Toronto)

 

Orion was at the top of its game. Unfortunately, the company that managed it was not. Daimler, which had divested itself of Chrysler in 2007, suddenly announced in the April 2012 its intention to get out of the North American bus industry entirely. Citing austerity budgets by governments across North America, Daimler stated that it did not see a future for the industry — or, at least, not a future that could justify its continued investment.

THE FALL OF ORION BUS INDUSTRIES

Orion stopped taking orders for new buses on April 25, 2012, and announced that its Mississauga factory would shut down after its current orders were completed. This closure occurred the next year. The Oriskany, New York facility would remain open to serve the aftermarket business of spare parts and maintenance. On March 1, 2013, New Flyer Industries announced it was buying out the remaining assets of Orion, including the aftermarket business, and its remaining bus orders.

For the past decade, Orion Bus Industries had a tremendous influence on agencies across America, especially in Ontario. That influence disappeared overnight due to its parent company losing interest in the manufacturing of buses. The transit agencies that have invested in the Orion VII are now served by New Flyer Industries for spare parts and maintenance. Over the next few years, New Flyer and other bus manufacturers will build the models that serve Toronto passengers.

As for Don Sheardon, he was recognized by the Canadian Urban Transportation Association by being put in their Hall of Fame in 1994. In their write-up, they said, “Don exported buses made in Mississauga to Sweden, Denmark and the United States, and OBI became the largest bus manufacturer in North America, growing from 45 employees in 1979 to 1,200 people in the early 90s. Don was a major contributor to his community and his industry. He supported CUTA extensively, and received the highest honour that any Canadian can receive - naming of the hockey arena in his hometown of Bolton, Ontario.”

The Orion logo will vanish from city streets, but not for a while. It takes some time for that many buses to fade away. Over that time, the Orions will have left a mark on Toronto transportation comparable to the General Motors New Look.

This is very sad. I still remember the day I first read about Orion going out of business as if it were yesterday (I know it was just 5-6 years ago, but still).

[transportationtoronto]

I mean this is an old thread but if NFI bought off the remaining assets of Orion, would it be possible for NFI to continue production of the VII, possibly under their own branding or is that not how it works?

[Cityflyer]

2 hours ago, transportationtoronto said:

I mean this is an old thread but if NFI bought off the remaining assets of Orion, would it be possible for NFI to continue production of the VII, possibly under their own branding or is that not how it works?

No.

NFI bought NABI and got rid of their own LFW and BRT models after all their orders were completed. Why make different models when they do the same thing?
They would just consolidate all their newly acquired plants to make the Xcelsior.

[Chris.A]

19 hours ago, Cityflyer said:

No.

NFI bought NABI and got rid of their own LFW and BRT models after all their orders were completed. Why make different models when they do the same thing?
They would just consolidate all their newly acquired plants to make the Xcelsior.

For variety. New Flyer used to make more then one bus model. For example, in 2009, they were making: The LF, LFR, LFA, and was about to launch the Xcelsior. Why did NABI even agreed to this buyout to New Flyer? It totally killed their business. 

[TTC T6H-5307N 2252]

42 minutes ago, Chris.A said:

For variety. New Flyer used to make more then one bus model. For example, in 2009, they were making: The LF, LFR, LFA, and was about to launch the Xcelsior. Why did NABI even agreed to this buyout to New Flyer? It totally killed their business. 

MTA kept buying the LF until 2013, (C40LFs) cause they required a Shaker test 

 

[T3G]

42 minutes ago, Chris.A said:

For variety. New Flyer used to make more then one bus model. For example, in 2009, they were making: The LF, LFR, LFA, and was about to launch the Xcelsior. Why did NABI even agreed to this buyout to New Flyer? It totally killed their business. 

And how much does it cost to make one bus model as opposed to four?

The only people who care about variety are bus fans. Don't expect a manufacturing corporation or a transit agency to cater to your tastes in bus models.

[Chris.A]

3 minutes ago, PCC Guy said:

And how much does it cost to make one bus model as opposed to four?

The only people who care about variety are bus fans. Don't expect a manufacturing corporation or a transit agency to cater to your tastes in bus models.

Using this logic, let me  ask you, Why did you sign up to this transit forum?

[Bus_Medic]

4 minutes ago, Chris.A said:

Using this logic, let me  ask you, Why did you sign up to this transit forum?

And all you do is antagonize others. What are you getting out of it?

[Chris.A]

2 minutes ago, Bus_Medic said:

And all you do is antagonize others. What are you getting out of it?

Sure, I antagonize others...

[Bus_Medic]

Reported 

[T3G]

7 minutes ago, Chris.A said:

Using this logic, let me  ask you, Why did you sign up to this transit forum?

What exactly is unclear about my presence here? I've never been a shill for GM, or Orion, or Flyer... I'm just an average joe with an interest in the hobby.

That I have an interest in different bus models, and hunt down individual units, changes nothing about the fact that the big cheeses who make those buses and decide when and where they're going to run don't give a damn. I hunt for buses and take photographs without the expectation that they will cater to me. A happy accident, if you will, that I happen to have the opportunity to photograph something I'm interested in.

[2044]

5 minutes ago, Chris.A said:

Sure, I antagonize others...

If you're just here to troll the board and antagonize others, then maybe you shouldn't have an account here.

[Chris.A]

5 minutes ago, PCC Guy said:

What exactly is unclear about my presence here? I've never been a shill for GM, or Orion, or Flyer... I'm just an average joe with an interest in the hobby.

That I have an interest in different bus models, and hunt down individual units, changes nothing about the fact that the big cheeses who make those buses and decide when and where they're going to run don't give a damn. I hunt for buses and take photographs without the expectation that they will cater to me. A happy accident, if you will, that I happen to have the opportunity to photograph something I'm interested in.

As am I.

1 minute ago, ADB said:

If you're just here to troll the board and antagonize others, then maybe you shouldn't have an account here.

That was Sarcasm. 

[2044]

1 minute ago, Chris.A said:

That was Sarcasm. 

Your recent behaviour proves otherwise.

[Chris.A]

3 minutes ago, ADB said:

Your recent behaviour proves otherwise.

Because the other parties like to play know it all and I'm here to tell them otherwise. Does that make me a troll? I think not. I find it extremely annoying when people spread misinformation and nonsensical  rhetoric around.

[Bus_Medic]

Just now, Chris.A said:

Because the other parties like to play know it all and I'm here to tell them otherwise. Does that make me a troll? I think not.

When does questioning another’s motives for membership enter into that?

[Chris.A]

1 minute ago, Bus_Medic said:

When does questioning another’s motives for membership enter into that?

What do you mean?

[Bus_Medic]

How does questioning their motives have any bearing on their knowledge base ?

here, have a look at this:

https://www.wikihow.com/Perform-Well-in-a-Debate

this flow chart especially:

[G.A]

20 hours ago, Cityflyer said:

No.

NFI bought NABI and got rid of their own LFW and BRT models after all their orders were completed. Why make different models when they do the same thing?
They would just consolidate all their newly acquired plants to make the Xcelsior.

Don't be so sure. They could market the Orion VII or NABI of they really wanted to. It would attract some other customers that like the look of say the VII but doesn't like the look of the excelsior. Make the guts the same and the outside the VII shell or NABI shell. Yes it makes sense to market 1 model. Nova has been doing that since 2003. But unlike Nova which offers two sizes, Flyer markets 3 to 4 lengths for their conventional. The rest of the stuff they bought out is a different story.

[Chris.A]

8 minutes ago, TTC 9701 said:

Don't be so sure. They could market the Orion VII or NABI of they really wanted to. It would attract some other customers that like the look of say the VII but doesn't like the look of the excelsior. Make the guts the same and the outside the VII shell or NABI shell. Yes it makes sense to market 1 model. Nova has been doing that since 2003. But unlike Nova which offers two sizes, Flyer markets 3 to 4 lengths for their conventional. The rest of the stuff they bought out is a different story.

My thoughts exactly!

59 minutes ago, TTC T6H-5307N 2252 said:

MTA kept buying the LF until 2013, (C40LFs) cause they required a Shaker test 

 

Actually, the MTA took an 11 year break after the 2000 order of New Flyer C40LFs and since then until that point, they order Orion VII OG CNGs, Orion VII NG CNGs, and newer Orion V CNGs.

[M. Parsons]

11 hours ago, TTC 9701 said:

Don't be so sure. They could market the Orion VII or NABI of they really wanted to. It would attract some other customers that like the look of say the VII but doesn't like the look of the excelsior.

That might make sense to a bus fan, but that's about it. 

The reality is that the majority of the North American bus market (the USA) operates in a lowest bid wins environment. While maybe some transit agencies might want initially to have kept receiving NABI's or Orion's for parts commonality, that would have been a concern 5 years ago. 

A transit agency could specify some sort of  "BRT" styling or other features, but there's no way they could specify Orion or NABI styling as then the competition is no longer fair. Therefore, there is absolutely no reason for New Flyer to offer anything but the Xcelsior. 

Making the "guts the same" with a NABI or Orion shell means engineering... engineering costs money. Why would New Flyer do this when no one wants it? They'd have to sell the buses at a higher cost to recover the investment which would then turn off any agencies that might have wanted it.

11 hours ago, TTC 9701 said:

But unlike Nova which offers two sizes, Flyer markets 3 to 4 lengths for their conventional. The rest of the stuff they bought out is a different story.

To be clear, New Flyer only offers 3 sizes. And they've only ever offered 3 sizes of Xcelsior, and even going back to the LFR it was really only 3 sizes that saw production, and that's been the case for 10+ years. 

Anyways, hopefully this is the end of the New Flyer resurrecting Orion and NABI fantasies. We're beating a dead horse now. 

[Chris.A]

9 hours ago, M. Parsons said:

That might make sense to a bus fan, but that's about it. 

The reality is that the majority of the North American bus market (the USA) operates in a lowest bid wins environment. While maybe some transit agencies might want initially to have kept receiving NABI's or Orion's for parts commonality, that would have been a concern 5 years ago. 

A transit agency could specify some sort of  "BRT" styling or other features, but there's no way they could specify Orion or NABI styling as then the competition is no longer fair. Therefore, there is absolutely no reason for New Flyer to offer anything but the Xcelsior. 

Making the "guts the same" with a NABI or Orion shell means engineering... engineering costs money. Why would New Flyer do this when no one wants it? They'd have to sell the buses at a higher cost to recover the investment which would then turn off any agencies that might have wanted it.

To be clear, New Flyer only offers 3 sizes. And they've only ever offered 3 sizes of Xcelsior, and even going back to the LFR it was really only 3 sizes that saw production, and that's been the case for 10+ years. 

Anyways, hopefully this is the end of the New Flyer resurrecting Orion and NABI fantasies. We're beating a dead horse now. 

Nobody said anything about NABI, this is an Orion tread. I hope you realize that 9 times out of 10, it takes money to make money. That's just elementary economics right there. If a company is too concerned about spending money especially if that product is still potentially profitable (because remember, the EPA10 Orion VII was said to be one of the most structurally  sound buses to pass the shaker test in history, surpassing the results of both the OG and the NG), then maybe they should not be in business....   

[HB_1024]

4 hours ago, Chris.A said:

If a company is too concerned about spending money especially if that product is still potentially profitable [...] then maybe they should not be in business....   

Doesn't seem to stop them from being in business, and seemingly doing decent business at that.

I repeat what has been said countless times in slightly different words: no one wanted the Orion VII EPA10. What evidence is there that suggests anyone is going to want the same design but with a New Flyer badge on the front instead?

[Chris.A]

12 minutes ago, HB_1024 said:

Doesn't seem to stop them from being in business, and seemingly doing decent business at that.

I repeat what has been said countless times in slightly different words: no one wanted the Orion VII EPA10. What evidence is there that suggests anyone is going to want the same design but with a New Flyer badge on the front instead?

Where's the proof for this? Source? I don't want heresy.